Creepy, Not Creepy: The Dark Underbelly Of Mormon Dating

[Third Hour]

Rant “Men, take care not to make women weep, for God counts their tears.” President Thomas S. Monson Provo, Utah: A Mormon Mecca with a population 93.35% LDS. The Provo-Orem area is home to Brigham Young University, Utah Valley University, and a massive amount of LDS Singles —seriously, massive. The number of Singles Wards in Provo is incalculable. Okay, not incalculable, but I googled it and can't find a hard number. Think somewhere in the hundreds. With such a high number of LDS singles concentrated in one area, you might imagine Provo as a wonderland for Mormon dating; you'd be wrong. "I had never felt objectified as a woman – not ever – until I started dating the young men that I met at BYU." - Simply Single A recent blogpost on Just A Simply Single has garnered a fair amount of attention from the masses. In it, the female writer describes a culture of young men who expect and demand physical attention from the young women they pursue. She chastises them with an I-expected-more-from-you tone. "A lot of these men are...

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[SilentOne]

Quote

Read: serving a mission does not automatically make you a good person. Holding the priesthood does not automatically make you a good person. Being temple worthy does not automatically make you a good person. 

I can agree with the literal meaning of these words. Being temple worthy is not the thing that makes you good. But I would contend that it is impossible to be temple worthy and not be a good person. If you're going for the parallelism, maybe say something like holding a temple recommend does not make you a good person or having been through the temple does not make you a good person.

[Just_A_Guy]

Interestingly, the more "traditional gender roles" seem to evaporate, the more churlish males seem to become and the less happy many women seem to be.

Why, it's almost as if traditional gender roles served as a buffer against men following their baser, exploitative instincts, or something . . .

[NeuroTypical]

I can pretty much agree with all of that, except women do creepy, controlling, or sometimes evil things too.  I don't think this is a gender thing as much as it is an immaturity, selfishness, and lack of self control thing.   

The whole "we're meant to be and you need to realize it too" thing isn't unique to men at all.   I've heard stories of this from women who believe the marriage was foreordained, or had the powerful prompting, or believe they promised themselves to each other in the preexistence, or whatever.  Yes - women do it too. 

There's also a particularly evil "get a missionary sent home early" game enjoyed in some social circles.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, SilentOne said:

I can agree with the literal meaning of these words. Being temple worthy is not the thing that makes you good. But I would contend that it is impossible to be temple worthy and not be a good person. If you're going for the parallelism, maybe say something like holding a temple recommend does not make you a good person or having been through the temple does not make you a good person.

I would supplement with:  dating isn't about finding a "good person".  Darn near everyone is a "good person" in some sense, and those few who aren't still think they are.  Dating is about finding a person who is "good enough to marry".  And frankly, for an active, temple-worthy college-aged single LDS female, in 95% of cases a non-RM, non-priesthood-holding, non-temple-recommend-holding young man is not "good enough to marry".  Sorry, guys--but our young women do deserve better.

Edited May 21, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Guest Godless]

Yeesh, either things have changed since I was a YSA on the dating market (pre-smarphone era, so we actually talked on the phone more than texting) or Utah Mormons are just whack. Based on what I've heard from my sister (who, FWIW, did find her husband at BYU, though neither of them grew up in the "Utah culture") and my mother (who met my dad at DLI in Cali, not BYU), I'm leaning towards the latter. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by Godless

[Vort]

I look forward to the next column, wherein the creepiness and repulsive idiocy of the single sisters are examined in some detail.

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

I look forward to the next column, wherein the creepiness and repulsive idiocy of the single sisters are examined in some detail.

It'll be written and published after the column that rates the best local cigars and craft beers. 

[Vort]

3 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It'll be written and published after the column that rates the best local cigars and craft beers. 

Sounds about right.

[Just_A_Guy]

13 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It'll be written and published after the column that rates the best local cigars and craft beers. 

I nominate @Godless to write that column.  And then @Vort can do the one about creepy/stupid girls.

@pam, they accept submissions, no?

Edited May 21, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Just_A_Guy]

Actually, @Godless--I have no idea what MormonHub would do with it; but speaking personally - I'd sure be interested to read something you wrote along the lines of "what non-drinkers should know about alcohol".  Enough of my colleagues drink, that I'd like to be able to at least know some basic stuff--how to know when someone has had "too much", how drinks are made/mixed, how to graciously extract oneself from a problematic situation without coming off as judgmental . . . that sort of thing.  (I grew up in a big winegrape producing area in California; and I feel like a bit of a stranger amongst my high school friends because a lot of what they talk about involves wine.  It'd be nice to be able to converse semi-intelligently.)

Edited May 21, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Just_A_Guy]

5 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Actually, @Godless--I have no idea what MormonHub would do with it; but speaking personally - I'd sure be interested to read something you wrote along the lines of "what on-drinkers should know about alcohol".  Enough of my colleagues drink, that I'd like to be able to at least know some basic stuff--how to know when someone has had "too much", how drinks are made/mixed, how to graciously extract oneself from a problematic situation without coming off as judgmental . . . that sort of thing.  (I grew up in a big winegrape producing area in California; and I feel like a bit of a stranger amongst my high school friends because a lot of what they talk about involves wine.  It'd be nice to be able to converse semi-intelligently.)

And @MormonGator, I expect a similar article from you about tattoos.

[Guest Godless]

23 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Actually, @Godless--I have no idea what MormonHub would do with it; but speaking personally - I'd sure be interested to read something you wrote along the lines of "what on-drinkers should know about alcohol".  Enough of my colleagues drink, that I'd like to be able to at least know some basic stuff--how to know when someone has had "too much", how drinks are made/mixed, how to graciously extract oneself from a problematic situation without coming off as judgmental . . . that sort of thing.  (I grew up in a big winegrape producing area in California; and I feel like a bit of a stranger amongst my high school friends because a lot of what they talk about involves wine.  It'd be nice to be able to converse semi-intelligently.)

That would certainly be an interesting write-up! Reminds of the time my sister asked me what a "mixer" is (it's basically any non-alcoholic beverage that is used as a base for an alcoholic mixed drink, like Coke, juice, or tonic water). Unfortunately though, that's about the extent of my knowledge about mixed drinks, and I fear I wouldn't be much more helpful with wine either.

[Guest Godless]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

And @MormonGator, I expect a similar article from you about tattoos.

They hurt. Bone hurts more than muscle, muscle hurts more than fat. [/article]

[Vort]

3 hours ago, Godless said:

That would certainly be an interesting write-up! Reminds of the time my sister asked me what a "mixer" is (it's basically any non-alcoholic beverage that is used as a base for an alcoholic mixed drink, like Coke, juice, or tonic water). Unfortunately though, that's about the extent of my knowledge about mixed drinks, and I fear I wouldn't be much more helpful with wine either.

Maybe you could discuss the origin, meaning, and purpose of the little paper umbrella.

[Guest Godless]

According to Wikipedia:

"The cocktail umbrella is believed to have arrived on the bar scene as early as 1932, courtesy of Victor Bergeron's Polynesian-themed restaurant Trader Vic's in San Francisco. According to his son, Victor J. Bergeron III, the elder Bergeron borrowed the idea for umbrellas in drinks from the now defunct Don the Beachcomber restaurants. He believes that they had been available in Chinese restaurants prior to that."

As to purpose and meaning, I have no idea. You'll note, however, that the year of origin coincides very closely with the end of Prohibition. Mixed drinks and cocktails were the drink of choice when booze became legal again. Beer and wine were far too conspicuous to have a real market during Prohibition, so cheaply (and often poorly) made spirits gained favor, usually mixed with soda or juice both to give the appearance of innocent indulgence and to mask the subpar flavors of the spirits.

[Guest]

"Mormon" dating? It's some Mormons, right? Not all. 

[Guest]

Listening to my single nieces, the biggest problem in Provo is that so many guys just want a "buddy" they can kiss. They want to have a girlfriend to go do fun things with but they don't want a wife. They'll date exclusively for months and years, but get "anxiety" when the topic of marriage comes up. They're stringing girls along and just want fun, but have no intention of allowing the relationship to progress to marriage. 

[Sunday21]

2 minutes ago, Eowyn said:

Listening to my single nieces, the biggest problem in Provo is that so many guys just want a "buddy" they can kiss. They want to have a girlfriend to go do fun things with but they don't want a wife. They'll date exclusively for months and years, but get "anxiety" when the topic of marriage comes up. They're stringing girls along and just want fun, but have no intention of allowing the relationship to progress to marriage. 

Many single sisters have made similar comments. 

[Just_A_Guy]

I feel for the sisters who have to put up with this, and I have a strong desire to smack a bunch of single males upside the head.

That said, when we focus on telling other people what they should change rather than changing what is in our own power to change--to some degree, we're beating our heads against stone walls.  "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?", our grandmothers intoned.  The young single women of the Church can keep hectoring the young single men about how they shouldn't want milk--or they can find it within themselves to hold onto their "milk" and resurrect the lost art of the slap in the face as a response to what was once called "getting fresh".

Edited May 21, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Sunday21]

A young married woman in my ward told her future husband on the first date, if this date is not leading to the temple, I am out of here. 

[NightSG]

On 5/20/2017 at 8:09 PM, NeuroTypical said:

I can pretty much agree with all of that, except women do creepy, controlling, or sometimes evil things too.

You mean like the whole "going to Utah to find a husband" thing?  

It reeks of desperation, and the men know it, so of course they're treating it like a meat market; it is a meat market full of the women that couldn't get any guys that have known them more than a few months to propose.

[Guest]

On 5/20/2017 at 7:40 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

Interestingly, the more "traditional gender roles" seem to evaporate, the more churlish males seem to become and the less happy many women seem to be.

Why, it's almost as if traditional gender roles served as a buffer against men following their baser, exploitative instincts, or something . . .

You don't say.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

You mean like the whole "going to Utah to find a husband" thing?  

It reeks of desperation, and the men know it, so of course they're treating it like a meat market; it is a meat market full of the women that couldn't get any guys that have known them more than a few months to propose.

Not judgmental at all.

[Guest]

On 5/20/2017 at 8:09 PM, NeuroTypical said:

The whole "we're meant to be and you need to realize it too" thing isn't unique to men at all.   I've heard stories of this from women who believe the marriage was foreordained, or had the powerful prompting, or believe they promised themselves to each other in the preexistence, or whatever.  Yes - women do it too.