ser?anto Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Hello, I am a lifelong atheist. I grew up in a household that was Christian in name only, and my family attended a local liberal Christian church very irregularly. My mother tells me that I told first her I did not believe God was real at six years old. My parents divorced when I was eight and after the divorce all church attendance stopped. In high school I was very active in debates and I have in my life probably sat through days, cumulatively, of recorded debates between Christians and Atheists, Christians and Muslims, et cetera. I know a lot of the common arguments both for and against theism, Christianity, and, to a lesser extent, Mormonism. I always envied the certainty of apologeticists who would talk about the "self-evident nature of the Universe" in regards to its having a creator. For me this was never self-evident. Now on the other hand, I would consider myself very conservative. I believe strongly in no sex before marriage, just due to my research into the statistics of number of partners a person has and their outcomes. I also believe that homosexuals make terrible parents and should not be allowed to adopt, or marry because I view marriage as a contract for raising children. I support very open free markets, and politically I would say that I am libertarian. To cut to the chase: I'm getting older. My fellow atheists, morally, leave much to be desired. I really want to settle down and have children, but it seems that there are no good women to be found in the secular world. I've been studying a lot about Mormonism, and to be honest I don't really think it's true. The apologetic arguments for the Book of Abraham are not convincing, and if that's a fraud then it is easy to conclude that Joseph Smith is not trustworthy. I really do find it worrying that in Mormonism, the text is not the standard; the prophets are...this means, in my view, that the good morals that Mormons espouse could easily be swept away by a divine revelation coming to a Generation Z "living prophet" telling him that (just for example) homosexuality is AOK. After all, as that snake Justin Trudeau would say, "it's the current year!" My research of history has shown the living prophets to be quite spineless: they quickly threw away their beliefs in polygamy and the unacceptability of black Africans for the priesthood to win some good public relations. But still, I really do like all of the morals espoused by Mormons and in my own life I follow them to a tee: cessation of coffee drinking would be my only change. I think that the Church could be a good place to raise my children in, as it would give them a good moral foundation. Do you think it's wrong to convert for belonging and virtue and hope that I can find faith in the history and Joseph Smith later? Or would you be disgusted to know that someone like me had joined your church? Thanks for your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just_A_Guy Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) Welcome, ser?anto. I think no one would have any problem at all with you coming to services and participating in your local LDS community! But as far as "converting" or "joining"--that, in LDS teaching, entails certain covenant obligations between you, the community, and (what we believe to be) God. I don't think you making a profession or covenant of faith that you really don't hold, would be healthy in the long term either for yourself or for your fellow Mormons who would be expecting things of you that you weren't prepared to give. Why say something you don't believe, when your local congregation will (or should be) perfectly willing to associate with you as you are? Edited May 17, 2017 by Just_A_Guy Jane_Doe, Sunday21 and seashmore 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 I think Joseph Smith once said... "If you will not accept our Doctrine... then accept our Hospitality." By all means accept our Hospitality. Joining us might mean something different to you then it does to us. To us it means being baptized and saying that you believe. We in no way want you to lie so don't do that if you aren't truthful about it. If to you it means showing up on Sunday and sitting through the service and classes and joining in the service projects and social events then by all means "join" you are very much welcome to do so. Jane_Doe, seashmore, Sunday21 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anatess2 Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 4 hours ago, ser?anto said: Hello, I am a lifelong atheist. I grew up in a household that was Christian in name only, and my family attended a local liberal Christian church very irregularly. My mother tells me that I told first her I did not believe God was real at six years old. My parents divorced when I was eight and after the divorce all church attendance stopped. In high school I was very active in debates and I have in my life probably sat through days, cumulatively, of recorded debates between Christians and Atheists, Christians and Muslims, et cetera. I know a lot of the common arguments both for and against theism, Christianity, and, to a lesser extent, Mormonism. I always envied the certainty of apologeticists who would talk about the "self-evident nature of the Universe" in regards to its having a creator. For me this was never self-evident. Now on the other hand, I would consider myself very conservative. I believe strongly in no sex before marriage, just due to my research into the statistics of number of partners a person has and their outcomes. I also believe that homosexuals make terrible parents and should not be allowed to adopt, or marry because I view marriage as a contract for raising children. I support very open free markets, and politically I would say that I am libertarian. To cut to the chase: I'm getting older. My fellow atheists, morally, leave much to be desired. I really want to settle down and have children, but it seems that there are no good women to be found in the secular world. I've been studying a lot about Mormonism, and to be honest I don't really think it's true. The apologetic arguments for the Book of Abraham are not convincing, and if that's a fraud then it is easy to conclude that Joseph Smith is not trustworthy. I really do find it worrying that in Mormonism, the text is not the standard; the prophets are...this means, in my view, that the good morals that Mormons espouse could easily be swept away by a divine revelation coming to a Generation Z "living prophet" telling him that (just for example) homosexuality is AOK. After all, as that snake Justin Trudeau would say, "it's the current year!" My research of history has shown the living prophets to be quite spineless: they quickly threw away their beliefs in polygamy and the unacceptability of black Africans for the priesthood to win some good public relations. But still, I really do like all of the morals espoused by Mormons and in my own life I follow them to a tee: cessation of coffee drinking would be my only change. I think that the Church could be a good place to raise my children in, as it would give them a good moral foundation. Do you think it's wrong to convert for belonging and virtue and hope that I can find faith in the history and Joseph Smith later? Or would you be disgusted to know that someone like me had joined your church? Thanks for your time. Hi @ser?anto! Welcome! Okay, the use of the phrase "join the Church" means different to us, I think, than what you mean. When we say "join the Church" we mean getting Baptized. Baptism is a Covenant (contract between the person and God), so, of course, it requires that, at the very least, you believe in God that you're making a contract with. But, you don't need to "join the Church" to join the Church. Hah hah... that sounds weird. What I mean is... you don't need to be Baptized to attend Church meetings, join activities, take your kids to primary and all the activities that go with it, etc. The only caution I would put on that is that as long as you don't actively teach things contrary to LDS beliefs at Church - like, for example, going up to the podium on Testimony Sunday and saying, "Believing in Modern Prophets is a stupid idea" or something like that... you'll be more than Welcome into the fold of Mormons! Oh, and fair warning... I can pretty much guarantee that when you start regularly attending Church services, you will have somebody try to convert you and get you Baptized... it's just something that comes with being Mormon. What we know is that Jesus Christ is the path to happiness so because we love we want you to be happy so we want you to become closer to Jesus. Just don't worry much about it - I believe the best way for you deal with this is to just say firmly to everyone - I love the Church but I don't want to be baptized. You might have to say it often but after a while they'll begin to get to know you better and understand your life story. So, be patient with them as they're not perfect people. Anyway, I'm going to just put it out there... I hope you join the Church - as in get Baptized kind of joining the Church. But, if that's not something you want to do (believe in God, Jesus Christ, the Book of Mormon, and the teaching of the Prophets, etc.), I hope you go ahead and join the Church anyway - as in attending services and activities. Blackmarch, Grunt, dahlia and 2 others 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prisonchaplain Posted May 18, 2017 Report Share Posted May 18, 2017 I'm not sure how attendance plays out in LDS churches, but in my fellowship at least one-third of those who attend are not members. Our membership nationwide is just under two million, but our adherents (based on weekly attendance reports) is over three million. I believe all LDS wards have signs on them that say, "Visitors Welcome." IMHO, membership is a line that should be crossed only by those who have prayed for a witness from the Holy Ghost, and received it. As a rather extreme example, that makes this point: We had an elderly lady in our church who taught Sunday School (adults), and attended regular services and prayer meetings. She would regularly speak out in tongues (my church is Pentecostal), and an interpretation always followed. She was never a member though. She understood that members were expected to tithe, and she did not believe tithing was biblical for New Testament Christians. Still, her giving exceeded 10%. Bottom line? No need to join what you cannot fully endorse. Just hang out, so long as the welcome is there. Blackmarch and Sunday21 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueskye2 Posted May 18, 2017 Report Share Posted May 18, 2017 I know two who are not LDS who participate actively in the LDS Church. Both do so because their spouses are LDS. Likewise for Catholics, people participate and sometimes people assume they are Catholic and shocked to find out they are not. I would caution however, if your intent is to find a good Mormon to marry, such a prospect is going to come with an expectation of a Mormon temple marriage. "Hanging out" without full participation, a Mormon testimony and true belief, will not be attractive to a Mormon woman who is looking for an eternal companion. seashmore and Blackmarch 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted May 18, 2017 Report Share Posted May 18, 2017 (edited) @Blueskye2. Have to agree with Skye. I know men who have hung out with the Mormons in hopes of picking up an lds wife. It has never worked. The male single rep in my ward gets quite upset about this and literally moans and pulls his hair. Quite something to see. He moans and groans endless repeating 'Its not a dating agency!'. There must be some good stories there! Now on the other side, I have a female friend who is a lot of fun but very overweight. She has for about 10 years believed that she will find someone who loves her for herself and this does not work either. There is some morale in this but I am not sure what it is. Edited May 18, 2017 by Sunday21 Blueskye2 and Blackmarch 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatima Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 On 5/17/2017 at 10:29 AM, ser?anto said: Hello, I am a lifelong atheist. I grew up in a household that was Christian in name only, and my family attended a local liberal Christian church very irregularly. My mother tells me that I told first her I did not believe God was real at six years old. My parents divorced when I was eight and after the divorce all church attendance stopped. In high school I was very active in debates and I have in my life probably sat through days, cumulatively, of recorded debates between Christians and Atheists, Christians and Muslims, et cetera. I know a lot of the common arguments both for and against theism, Christianity, and, to a lesser extent, Mormonism. I always envied the certainty of apologeticists who would talk about the "self-evident nature of the Universe" in regards to its having a creator. For me this was never self-evident. Now on the other hand, I would consider myself very conservative. I believe strongly in no sex before marriage, just due to my research into the statistics of number of partners a person has and their outcomes. I also believe that homosexuals make terrible parents and should not be allowed to adopt, or marry because I view marriage as a contract for raising children. I support very open free markets, and politically I would say that I am libertarian. To cut to the chase: I'm getting older. My fellow atheists, morally, leave much to be desired. I really want to settle down and have children, but it seems that there are no good women to be found in the secular world. I've been studying a lot about Mormonism, and to be honest I don't really think it's true. The apologetic arguments for the Book of Abraham are not convincing, and if that's a fraud then it is easy to conclude that Joseph Smith is not trustworthy. I really do find it worrying that in Mormonism, the text is not the standard; the prophets are...this means, in my view, that the good morals that Mormons espouse could easily be swept away by a divine revelation coming to a Generation Z "living prophet" telling him that (just for example) homosexuality is AOK. After all, as that snake Justin Trudeau would say, "it's the current year!" My research of history has shown the living prophets to be quite spineless: they quickly threw away their beliefs in polygamy and the unacceptability of black Africans for the priesthood to win some good public relations. But still, I really do like all of the morals espoused by Mormons and in my own life I follow them to a tee: cessation of coffee drinking would be my only change. I think that the Church could be a good place to raise my children in, as it would give them a good moral foundation. Do you think it's wrong to convert for belonging and virtue and hope that I can find faith in the history and Joseph Smith later? Or would you be disgusted to know that someone like me had joined your church? Thanks for your time. Can I plug the Catholic Church on this site? The teachings have never changed. And as long as you can separate the sinners who are part of the church (that includes priests, popes in history and individuals locally) from the actual doctrines, you will find much that is similar in values and virtues that the LDS church teaches. Just make sure to judge the Catholic Church by those actually practicing their faith, as opposed to those who are Catholic in Name Only! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 1 minute ago, fatima said: Can I plug the Catholic Church on this site? The teachings have never changed. And as long as you can separate the sinners who are part of the church (that includes priests, popes in history and individuals locally) from the actual doctrines, you will find much that is similar in values and virtues that the LDS church teaches. Just make sure to judge the Catholic Church by those actually practicing their faith, as opposed to those who are Catholic in Name Only! We also have bad apples who are not practising thr faith! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatima Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 2 hours ago, Sunday21 said: We also have bad apples who are not practising thr faith! LOL! Well, I've never met one. Every LDS I know is totally devoted, although I suppose the ones who are not are not wearing a signs. Blackmarch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, fatima said: LOL! Well, I've never met one. Every LDS I know is totally devoted, although I suppose the ones who are not are not wearing a signs. Trust me..we have them! But it is tougher in small wards! Anyway, one thing I love about Catholic services is that you can always find them and they are conveniently scheduled. I have catholic friends and when we are travelling we always attend the catholic not lds services for these reasons plus catholic services are shorter! seashmore 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatima Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 11 minutes ago, Sunday21 said: Trust me..we have them! But it is tougher in small wards! Anyway, one thing I love about Catholic services is that you can always find them and they are conveniently scheduled. I have catholic friends and when we are travelling we always attend the catholic not lds services for these reasons plus catholic services are shorter! I've often considered that Catholic Masses are so short because it is a requirement of our faith to go every, single Sunday. Only illness releases a practicing Catholic from Mass, not travel, not family obligations, not work, nothing should come before our weekly Mass. Let me edit that...for someone like a doctor, who might work 12-24 hr. shifts and such, might have a dispensation as well. However, he/she should be doing everything in their power to have one free hour for Mass. This is probably why you find the schedules so convenient. Lots of Masses are offered to accommodate the varied schedules people have. my two cents, Blackmarch and Sunday21 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunday21 Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 7 minutes ago, fatima said: I've often considered that Catholic Masses are so short because it is a requirement of our faith to go every, single Sunday. Only illness releases a practicing Catholic from Mass, not travel, not family obligations, not work, nothing should come before our weekly Mass. Let me edit that...for someone like a doctor, who might work 12-24 hr. shifts and such, might have a dispensation as well. However, he/she should be doing everything in their power to have one free hour for Mass. This is probably why you find the schedules so convenient. Lots of Masses are offered to accommodate the varied schedules people have. I also love your very lovely churches and especially the stained glass windows. In Ottawa the National Art Gallery contains a rescued chapel with many beautiful carvings. Most spiritual and uplifting! CAtholics are a very talented people with a keen eye for beauty! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 10 minutes ago, fatima said: I've often considered that Catholic Masses are so short because it is a requirement of our faith to go every, single Sunday. For sure. Can you imagine some church that might try to spring, I don't know, a three-hour block of meetings on its congregants? Blackmarch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatima Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 59 minutes ago, Vort said: For sure. Can you imagine some church that might try to spring, I don't know, a three-hour block of meetings on its congregants? Yes! And imagine if listening to the testimony of lackluster speakers was an integral part of the meeting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 I risk having my snark misunderstood, so let me clarify: I love our three-hour block. Three hours per week is entirely too short a time to spend with such fine people. And hearing the testimonies of my fellow Saints inspires me like little else. Back to your normally scheduled snark. zil 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatima Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 42 minutes ago, Vort said: I risk having my snark misunderstood, so let me clarify: I love our three-hour block. Three hours per week is entirely too short a time to spend with such fine people. And hearing the testimonies of my fellow Saints inspires me like little else. Back to your normally scheduled snark. My apologies if it sounded as though I was dissing the parts of your service. Lackluster speakers abound, and I was just picking on any situation in which we are a captive audience. Sunday21 and Vort 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vort Posted May 20, 2017 Report Share Posted May 20, 2017 35 minutes ago, fatima said: My apologies if it sounded as though I was dissing the parts of your service. Lackluster speakers abound, and I was just picking on any situation in which we are a captive audience. Not at all. I was not offended by your humor; I just thought it wise to clarify my own position. fatima 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dahlia Posted May 24, 2017 Report Share Posted May 24, 2017 Ser?anto - I hear you. Many of the things that attract you to the Church attracted me and many of the issues you have with doctrine and religion, I had as well. I am a convert of 5 years, gave lessons for about 2 of them (can't believe they trusted me to do that!), consider myself fairly active and struggle, struggle, struggle. And yet, I love the Church. I had to stop myself from crying when I signed on and saw that President Monson has stopped attending meetings. I enjoy the fellowship I have with people in my ward and am so appreciative for what members have done for me and my non-member son. That said, I have issues with everything from the role of women (I don't need them to be priests, tho), to tithing when times are hard, to sexual repression, to stuff I don't talk about much, like eternity and the existence of an afterlife. One of my missionaries told me I was the most difficult investigator he ever had. Of course I was. Read my posts. But I believe in the basics - Jesus and God the Father, that the Church is true (even if Joseph Smith was wrong, lied, whatev, it doesn't matter to me, the CHURCH is true). I believe in baptism for the dead and feel joy that, if there is an afterlife, people can still hear the gospel and be saved. I have never met a group of people who, as a whole, are so nice, positive, family-oriented, and friendly to the stranger, including me when I first joined this group as an investigator. Give it a try. Go to some meetings. Hang out with the men (I think you're a man; hand out with the women if you aren't). Go to some social events. Be open. You might just like it - and you might feel your spirit change. Mine did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 24, 2017 Report Share Posted May 24, 2017 @ser?anto, You've been given good advice here so far. I'd like to point out something no one else has (maybe, I might have missed something). Your primary motivations in wanting to stay among us: You wish to find a quality wife with good morals and values. You wish to raise children with good morals and values. You believe you can accomplish this without the beliefs to back them up. This thought process is not going to get you far. Yes, there are exceptions to every rule. But a good moral upbringing must include a strong sense of "standard". Without God there is no constant standard. Everyone is going to change, even you, even science and statistics. What are you going to tell yourself when an additional study comes out that challenges what you based your earlier positions on? You're going to have to change. And at some point. BAM! You're A-OK with gay marriage. Therefore, without real belief, there is no standard. What are you going to tell your kids? "Well, I don't believe any of this stuff, but you should because it will make you moral." To marry a good LDS woman with good morals and standards...it will be rare that such a woman will want to marry an atheist -- especially one that is so strict in his position as you. You've made the statement that the prophet could just stand up one day and declare that he had a revelation that said Gay marriage is A-OK. While that is theoretically possible, it would completely undermine all that separates us from other Christian faiths. And it also indicates a belief that we blindly follow the prophet. Not so. We don't believe our prophets to be infallible. We only consider revelations to be infallible. And the bar is pretty high for us to acknowledge revelation. Look at it this way. When I said that all it would take is just another study or statistic to make you change your mind about gay marriage, what was your response? "No, I'd have to take a look at that and make sure it was peer reviewed, and that all the studies were done correctly..." You'd give it due diligence, right? And if you did all that and put forth the effort to verify things and validate all the data, and you verified that it did indeed show that gay marriages are good, then you'd be A-OK with it, right? But it would be pretty tough to convince you of that, right? In the same way, we are ALWAYS supposed to find our personal revelation of anything the prophet says. Many things are minor changes in procedures and policies that are easy to go along with. But when there are changes to doctrine, we go through that with a fine toothed comb. We have to study, ponder, pray and repeat that process until we ourselves believe it -- not because it was spoken by the mouth of man, but because we received a confirmation from God Himself through personal revelation. Can you imagine if the prophet stood up and said,"OK, the Lord has told me that the Book Of Mormon is just a work of fiction." How on earth are we to believe that? If we did, that means there is no more Mormon Church. Gay marriage isn't quite on that level, but almost. If you see how central to our faith the concept of eternal family is, you'd know how virtually impossible it would be for us to accept gay marriage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
An Investigator Posted May 24, 2017 Report Share Posted May 24, 2017 Hi! I am a convert of just over a year, I used to be a practicing Catholic. The Church is amazing for family, I have two little ones that I am bringing up in the church and I also love my ward family very much and I have made a lot of friends. Joining the church has been an amazing blessing for me. That said being a member of the Church is very time consuming and It's not like other churches, I am constantly being asked to do new things and being pushed out of my comfort zone. I don't mind this because I consider it part of my progression and learning for when I can live with God again, but if I didn't believe the Church was true I don't know if I would do these things or pay tithing. That being said I didn't just wake up one morning witn a deep faith in the Church, I took it slow and had some deep spiritual experiences too. If you want to go do some social stuff then do it! Everyone will be more than welcoming zil and Blackmarch 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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