The War in Heaven

[Traveler]

We are told through revelation that the war in heaven is still going on, right now, here on earth.  We are told that the war in heaven was not a war of bullets and bombs but a war of words and ideas.  With this in mind – what are some of the words and ideas being used in or day by the rebels of heaven?  And what words and ideas are being used to fight back to protect the saints of G-d and the things of G-d?

 

The Traveler

[Sunday21]

Satan's Weapons

-philosophies of men - if I can't see it, it does not exist

- self-control, sacrifice are old fashioned

- it feels so right, it can't be wrong

- 'cool ' behaviour is fun, modern, so people become habituated to profanity, taking God's name in vain

- the most important thing is success

God's weapons

Family Home Evening

Prayer

Scriptures

 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

We are told through revelation that the war in heaven is still going on, right now, here on earth.  We are told that the war in heaven was not a war of bullets and bombs but a war of words and ideas.  With this in mind – what are some of the words and ideas being used in or day by the rebels of heaven?  And what words and ideas are being used to fight back to protect the saints of G-d and the things of G-d?

 

The Traveler

I think the same ideas promulgated by Sherem (Jacob Chapter 1), Nehor (Alma 1), Korihor (Alma 30), Gadianton (Helaman 2 & 6) and Giddianhi (3 Nephi 3) in the Book of Mormon have corresponding versions, some of them verbatim, today. The words of God in countering them is also shared in these same chapters.

[Guest]

I still believe the biggest today is creating God in our image.

[Traveler]

I will add one - certain doctrines or principles of G-d are hurtful.

 

The Traveler

[Ankh_]

27 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I will add one - certain doctrines or principles of G-d are hurtful.

Maybe I am just slower than most. Could you expound on this a bit more?

[NeuroTypical]

What's "genderism"?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Armin said:

Satan's weapon:

socialism / pornography / genderism / homosexuality / addiction / decadence / lie / cowardice / apathy /  assassination / conspiracy

God's weapon:

bravery / faith /  hope / loyalty / righteousness / devotion  / modesty / honor / love / honesty / truthfulness / patriotism / ...POTUS 45

(I'm not joking)

<penny drops>

Wait, a German who is Pro-Trump?  Whoa!!

[Guest]

Just now, Armin said:

Why not? Not all Germans are retarded.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not really a fan of Trump.  But I can see the conditions in the US where someone like him would be just what the doctor ordered.

[Rob Osborn]

Satans weapons: lies, pride, deceit, murder, hatred, disputations, pornography, abuse, immorality, secret combinations, slavery, laziness, social class,

Gods weapons: truth, humility, charity, service, love, patience, morality, chastity, hard workers

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, Armin said:

That's exactly what I mean. But be assured the establishment doesn't like this medicine.

You might be interested in this thread:

[NeuroTypical]

So, what's "genderism"?

[Blackmarch]

6 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

What's "genderism"?

What you "identify" as is what you really are, or something like that. That it is all mental and the physical has no bearing on it.

[Jojo Bags]

5 hours ago, Armin said:

Why not? Not all Germans are retarded.

Nope, not at all.  When I was in the Army, I lived in both Grafenwöhr and Bayreuth back in the 80's and I knew some fine people.  I worked closely with one guy from KRIPO on a drug operation involving some German citizens.   He had more common sense in his little finger than most of the American soldiers I dealt with had in their entire body. 

[Traveler]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 8:45 AM, Ankh_ said:

Maybe I am just slower than most. Could you expound on this a bit more?

 

That the teaching of certain doctrines or divine principles are hurtful to those that do not believe - this follows along with the idea that if we love someone we will not deliberately point them to things (ideas) that will cause them pain and anguish.  Therefore those that teach "painful" truths are "evil" for doing it.

 

The Traveler

[Jojo Bags]

5 hours ago, Traveler said:

 

That the teaching of certain doctrines or divine principles are hurtful to those that do not believe - this follows along with the idea that if we love someone we will not deliberately point them to things (ideas) that will cause them pain and anguish.  Therefore those that teach "painful" truths are "evil" for doing it.

 

The Traveler

Heavenly Father generally keeps the unbelieving and the apathetic from gaining too much knowledge to protect them from sinning.   If they were to get knowledge and reject it, they would fall under greater condemnation.   This is very common for those who are what Joseph Smith referred to as, "too wise to be taught."  Often, I have found these folks to be educated and "intellectuals" generally steeped in the wisdom and learning of the world. "Ever learning,  but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth."  Not all the time,  but often. 

[Sunday21]

7 minutes ago, Jojo Bags said:

Heavenly Father generally keeps the unbelieving and the apathetic from gaining too much knowledge to protect them from sinning.   If they were to get knowledge and reject it, they would fall under greater condemnation.   This is very common for those who are what Joseph Smith referred to as, "too wise to be taught."  Often, I have found these folks to be educated and "intellectuals" generally steeped in the wisdom and learning of the world. "Ever learning,  but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth."  Not all the time,  but often. 

Very True!

[Traveler]

12 hours ago, Jojo Bags said:

Heavenly Father generally keeps the unbelieving and the apathetic from gaining too much knowledge to protect them from sinning.   If they were to get knowledge and reject it, they would fall under greater condemnation.   This is very common for those who are what Joseph Smith referred to as, "too wise to be taught."  Often, I have found these folks to be educated and "intellectuals" generally steeped in the wisdom and learning of the world. "Ever learning,  but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth."  Not all the time,  but often. 

For me, when I come face to face with information or such that seem to be accusatory or hurtful – I think of the accusation Jesus made of his apostles at the last supper.  I am impressed that the apostles, for the most part, instead of accusing or being suspicious of others – asked “L-rd is it I”.

When we speak of the war in heaven that continues even now – I believe the question of hurtful can be a very cleaver adversarial weapon when pretended to be defensive but wielded offensively.

 

The Traveler

Edited May 25, 2017 by Traveler

[SpiritDragon]

On 5/22/2017 at 3:44 PM, Traveler said:

We are told through revelation that the war in heaven is still going on, right now, here on earth.  We are told that the war in heaven was not a war of bullets and bombs but a war of words and ideas.  With this in mind – what are some of the words and ideas being used in or day by the rebels of heaven?  And what words and ideas are being used to fight back to protect the saints of G-d and the things of G-d?

 

The Traveler

It seems to be that the fundamental principal the war in heaven was and is fought over is agency. Satan's plan was forced obedience while Heavenly Father's plan allowed us to explore and make mistakes that would require a Saviour to atone for our sins.

I see some of the largest problems of our day having to do with the loss of individual agency. In fact I think that is part of why the Church has the self reliance groups going on... it is easier to fully exercise agency when one is not financially constrained. For instance, in Australia, the no jab no pay policy of not giving government assistance to those who don't vaccinate their children is an attack on the agency of parents. One of the biggest enemies right now is public funded brainwashing in the school systems where children are being spoon-fed agency removing nonsense. While I agree with Spock that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, I don't believe that people should be forced. Goodness gracious, my province and country are using the excuse of global warming to tax us more and fund more social programs they promise. State mandates on the greater population not having to do with keeping the peace are among the worst ideas being promoted by Satan to continue his efforts to exert control and cause strife and war among God's children.

The problem with everyone trying to promote their individual rights, is that it always seems to impose on someone else's somehow. 

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, SpiritDragon said:

It seems to be that the fundamental principal the war in heaven was and is fought over is agency. Satan's plan was forced obedience while Heavenly Father's plan allowed us to explore and make mistakes that would require a Saviour to atone for our sins.

I see some of the largest problems of our day having to do with the loss of individual agency. In fact I think that is part of why the Church has the self reliance groups going on... it is easier to fully exercise agency when one is not financially constrained. For instance, in Australia, the no jab no pay policy of not giving government assistance to those who don't vaccinate their children is an attack on the agency of parents. One of the biggest enemies right now is public funded brainwashing in the school systems where children are being spoon-fed agency removing nonsense. While I agree with Spock that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, I don't believe that people should be forced. Goodness gracious, my province and country are using the excuse of global warming to tax us more and fund more social programs they promise. State mandates on the greater population not having to do with keeping the peace are among the worst ideas being promoted by Satan to continue his efforts to exert control and cause strife and war among God's children.

The problem with everyone trying to promote their individual rights, is that it always seems to impose on someone else's somehow. 

Im curious here- was there ever an instance in the Book of Mormon where Satan was going around stirring up peoples hearts to  obedience? Perhaps the Gadianton robbers were really about forcing everyone to repent and get baptized? 

I say this to arise contemplation about what Satans real plans were and are as they havent changed at all. Satans plan is one he is still carrying out. He still seeks the destruction of our agency. But its not through some kind of forced obedience. That would entail forcing people to repent, get baptized, etc. 

When the scriptures speak of Satan leading his followers down into captivity and destruction, the "chains of hell", it means he is destroying our agency. This was always his plan, and still is, to destroy our agency- to lead us carefully and craftily down to hell so he could then reign over us.

We need look no further than the Book of Mormon to see how the devil works his plans. I can asure you there was never an instance in the Book of Mormon that tells the story about how a king became wicked, then seeking to fulfill Satans plans, forced everyone to repent, stop killing each other and get baptized.

Even going further, perhaps thinking welfare or socialism is Satans plans, there is never an instance where a wicked king, seeking to fulfill Satans plans, goes about taxing the people so that the poor can have food and shelter. I can asure you that Satan laughs when the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. He dont care about the poor, he would rather further the divide and grind the face of the poor in the dirt. 

 

[SpiritDragon]

9 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Im curious here- was there ever an instance in the Book of Mormon where Satan was going around stirring up peoples hearts to  obedience? Perhaps the Gadianton robbers were really about forcing everyone to repent and get baptized? 

I say this to arise contemplation about what Satans real plans were and are as they havent changed at all. Satans plan is one he is still carrying out. He still seeks the destruction of our agency. But its not through some kind of forced obedience. That would entail forcing people to repent, get baptized, etc. 

When the scriptures speak of Satan leading his followers down into captivity and destruction, the "chains of hell", it means he is destroying our agency. This was always his plan, and still is, to destroy our agency- to lead us carefully and craftily down to hell so he could then reign over us.

We need look no further than the Book of Mormon to see how the devil works his plans. I can asure you there was never an instance in the Book of Mormon that tells the story about how a king became wicked, then seeking to fulfill Satans plans, forced everyone to repent, stop killing each other and get baptized.

Even going further, perhaps thinking welfare or socialism is Satans plans, there is never an instance where a wicked king, seeking to fulfill Satans plans, goes about taxing the people so that the poor can have food and shelter. I can asure you that Satan laughs when the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. He dont care about the poor, he would rather further the divide and grind the face of the poor in the dirt. 

 

I believe we are largely in agreement. The attack is on agency. However, I believe that Satan does adapt his plans. My understanding is that during the premortal war in heaven, Satan's appealing argument was that everyone would be saved through forced obedience, as opposed to some being lost through poor choices as in our Father's plan. In our day any program that removes agency is still part of that plan whether it be to take our agency by virtue of addiction to good or bad habits or by force or economics. Forced obedience is no longer a concern of Satan's because he is hateful and wants to ruin The Plan. 

[Rob Osborn]

7 minutes ago, SpiritDragon said:

I believe we are largely in agreement. The attack is on agency. However, I believe that Satan does adapt his plans. My understanding is that during the premortal war in heaven, Satan's appealing argument was that everyone would be saved through forced obedience, as opposed to some being lost through poor choices as in our Father's plan. In our day any program that removes agency is still part of that plan whether it be to take our agency by virtue of addiction to good or bad habits or by force or economics. Forced obedience is no longer a concern of Satan's because he is hateful and wants to ruin The Plan. 

I personally believe Satan was a liar and lied when he said- "Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost"

I do not believe it was ever his plan to save anyone. I believe it is why, in that same verse God tells Moses that he was a liar in the beginning at the council. Satan was being deceptive and trying to mimick the role of the Savior. The job of the Savior is to save all those who the Father gives him to save that nothing is lost.

[Rob Osborn]

John 6:39

39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

[redreed1]

I also think agency was the big issue.  God felt that for his spirit children to grow and be more like him, we had to have choices , and agency to make those choices.  You don't grow if you cannot make mistakes. And you cannot make mistakes if you have no choices, for better or for worse.  Satan thought this was a stupid plan.  He knew that if Man had agency, then many would make the wrong choices and be destroyed. So he proposed that he would prevent that by removing agency and personally hand holding us all so we could not make any mistakes, or commit any sin.  In the end, Satan wanted to have all the Glory and be God to us all (It doesn't take much to figure out what it would be like to have Satan as your god).  But when God rejected that plan, Satan adopted an attitude.  He decided that he would show God a thing or two. He would demonstrate the folly of agency.  He is doing that today by deceitfully leading people to make bad choices.  But God defeated his plan by sending a Savior so that man could repent and be saved by the blood of the innocent lamb of God.  We use our agency to choose Jesus.  Satan wants us to use our agency to reject Jesus.  Jesus represent the acceptance of Gods plan.  Satan represents the rejection of Gods plan.  Agency is the means of doing so.  In doing so, God is pruning the vineyards.

[The Folk Prophet]

On 5/30/2017 at 8:56 AM, SpiritDragon said:

My understanding is that during the premortal war in heaven, Satan's appealing argument was that everyone would be saved through forced obedience

The scriptures do not teach this.