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12 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I find it hugely fascinating how Disney is treated. The right hates them because of they won't forbid homosexuals from entering the park. The left hates them because they are big, nasty company that doesn't pay the employees well. The right hates them because golly, they do things slightly more "edgy" than Saved by the Bell. The left hates them because they don't present strong female characters or have openly gay ones.

It's amazing to me how not a single thing in this paragraph is true.

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On 6/20/2017 at 3:49 PM, Sunday21 said:

I was hoping to see Game of Thrones but the first season is, I hear, too disgusting to salvage with bleeping. I watched 5 year engagement with bleeping. Some whole segments were unintelligible!

Back in the day, BYU's Varsity Theater would often show popular movies after the initial run was over. But in accordance with BYU standards, movie soundtracks and even movie titles would be Bowdlerized. Kind of a 1980s version of VidAngel. I remember when a few very popular Eddie Murphy movies showed up there. I didn't go see them, because I had little interest in Eddie Murphy, but I laughed that the student body called them the "silent movies".

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1 hour ago, MormonGator said:

What Disney wants is money. If the public wanted squeaky clean, G rated movies, Disney would give them what they want. If the public doesn't want that, than Disney does not provide it. It's really that simple. 

No, it really is not that simple. What you say is true, but not complete. In addition to what you say, there is and always has been a very significant top-down effect. Throughout my lifetime, Hollywood has always—always—portrayed American culture as grittier, more vulgar, more violent, and more sexual than the actual norm has been. It has only been the last generation when the professional workplace environment has begun approaching the callous vulgarity that Hollywood has portrayed for almost fifty years.

And Hollywood is very big into revisionist moral history. Sure, there have always been brothels and gangsters and bad guys. There have been some really ugly times in America, such as the Depression Era, pre-WWII, when crime was rampant in many areas and Chicago began looking like a blueprint for larger America. But the image of an early 20th-century America where, for example, most people were sexually promiscuous but just didn't talk openly about it, is a lie, pure and simple. That is simply not how it was. Most women, and for that matter most men, were actually virgins at marriage. Hollywood would have you believe otherwise, because they are liars who are invested in revising history to their own tastes.

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10 minutes ago, Vort said:

 What you say is true, but not complete.

Yeah, but it's true, so....

Hollywood is a business, and like all businesses, they care about the bottom line. If Leave it to Beaver type entertainment sold in 2019, they'd make tv shows based on it. 

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

Throughout my lifetime, Hollywood has always—always—portrayed American culture as grittier, more vulgar, more violent, and more sexual than the actual norm has been.

That's interesting you say that, because in my lifetime, I've seen Hollywood (especially Disney) get accused of over romanticizing the real world and making it less vulgar, less violent, and less gritty than what it really is.  Look at West Side Story, the classic example. I love that musical, it's one of my favorites. Yet I'm reasonably sure street gangs don't dance around in the street during street fights. Maybe they do. @mirkwood
 

 

Edited by MormonGator

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1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Look at West Side Story, the classic example. I love that musical, it's onem of my favorites. Yet I'm reasonably sure street gangs don't dance around in the street during street fights.

Bad example, like citing the "unrealistic" opera aria, where action and story development stop so that the character can express emotion. It has nothing to do with "reality", but only with format. Citing West Side Story as unrealistically "clean" because the characters sing and dance is like citing a popular song as "unrealistic" because, you know, real people in real life don't go around singing about how heartbroken they are.

As I recall, Tony gets snuffed. That doesn't seem too squeaky-cleaned-up to me.

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5 minutes ago, Vort said:

Bad example,

It's actually a great one, more I think about it. In fact, the director of The Warriors said he created that movie (The Warriors) to give a more "realistic and gritty" look at street gangs than "West Side Story" did. 

Edited by MormonGator

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Interestingly enough I partially agree with @MormonGator in this case. But I think Hollywood shifted from showing an idyllic fairy-tale unrealistic life to a gritty unrealistic one.

Edit: I should add. I disagree with the idea that Hollywood has no effect on the world. In the does art influence life or does life influence art the obvious answer to any reasonable person ought to be that both things are true. They influence each other.

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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13 hours ago, Emmanuel Goldstein said:

The letter seems like a desperate attempt to avoid losing the case.

My reaction is that this letter was never actually written/intended for the CEO of Disney. It is actually intended for the VidAngel investor audience to read and pump up continued support.

Sometimes at work I'll need to write a letter to an unhappy/angry customer outlining why/how we more than fulfilled our contract with them and why they should be happy. In reality, I'm not really writing to them as much as I'm putting into writing all the details, facts, etc. so that if my letter is read by a judge he/she will favor on my side. A Judge is my actual intended recipient.

9 hours ago, Vort said:

Back in the day, BYU's Varsity Theater would often show popular movies after the initial run was over. But in accordance with BYU standards, movie soundtracks and even movie titles would be Bowdlerized. Kind of a 1980s version of VidAngel. I remember when a few very popular Eddie Murphy movies showed up there. I didn't go see them, because I had little interest in Eddie Murphy, but I laughed that the student body called them the "silent movies".

Hah. Oh, memory lane.
My one and only viewing at Varsity Theater was a movie about the life of a praying mantis and twig bugs set to symphony music. The line was long, the theater was packed. I couldn't believe my friend snookered me into going that night.

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14 hours ago, MormonGator said:

No, that's actually not how it works. 

What Disney wants is money. If the public wanted squeaky clean, G rated movies, Disney would give them what they want. If the public doesn't want that, than Disney does not provide it. It's really that simple. 
 

I’m not sure it’s that simple.  It’s possible to want to both make money and change the world.  See, e.g., http://www.jrganymede.com/2019/06/19/woke-capital/.

14 hours ago, MormonGator said:

I find it hugely fascinating how Disney is treated. The right hates them because of they won't forbid homosexuals from entering the park. The left hates them because they are big, nasty company that doesn't pay the employees well. The right hates them because golly, they do things slightly more "edgy" than Saved by the Bell. The left hates them because they don't present strong female characters or have openly gay ones.

In other words, haters gonna hate. 

*In the interest of fairness my wife and I are annual pass holders and we go there all the time. We don't watch the movies though, we just love the parks. 

Can’t speak as to everyone else’s take on Disney; but I’m increasingly believing that they’ve been screwing up our cultural expectations of what love is and how it works, since the 1930s and at an accelerated intensity since the 1980s.  (See, e.g., my thoughts at this thread:) 

 

 

 

14 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Based on the "awesome"-ness of The Disney Channel this would definitely be the case. :glare:

Ok, I concede. ;) 

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17 hours ago, MormonGator said:

It's actually a great one, more I think about it. In fact, the director of The Warriors said he created that movie (The Warriors) to give a more "realistic and gritty" look at street gangs than "West Side Story" did. 

So, you're saying that street gangs regularly have a kum-bye-yah meeting with a radio announcer spelling out the game plan for a small gang fighting their way cross the country?  And a small 6 or 7 gang team can successfully traverse hostile lands filled with dozens and dozens of enemy combatants?  Very realistic.

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7 minutes ago, Mores said:

So, you're saying that street gangs regularly have a kum-bye-yah meeting with a radio announcer spelling out the game plan for a small gang fighting their way cross the country?  And a small 6 or 7 gang team can successfully traverse hostile lands filled with dozens and dozens of enemy combatants?  Very realistic.

It's more realistic than West Side Story, and that again proves my point. 

I love The Warriors. We watched it last weekend! 

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29 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

It's more realistic than West Side Story

I'm not so sure it was.  We must make allowances for one being a musical, and one being a drama (albeit with a fairly comical use of fingers in glass bottles).

Here's what I see:

The overall setting from WSS was more believable.  They represented rival gangs, mostly segregated along racial divides who were battling each other for turf and power.
The details and characteristics of individuals in Warriors was more believable.  

But for the movie to start off with a big "Parley" among street gangs was more unrealistic than the cheezy acting from WSS acting.  Remember that when a person goes to see WSS, no one in their minds is thinking that real life street gangs go around singing and dancing.  But I can guarantee that there are many in 70s America who believed such a mass Parley actually occurred on a regular basis.  I know, because many I grew up with said they "knew" it happened.  Given the expectations, which gave a more incorrect impression of street gangs?

 

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Just to make sure we're all aware of what's happened in the last year or so...

Beloved 'Arthur' character, Mr. Ratburn, revealed as gay in wedding episode of children's series

My Little Pony to Introduce Lesbian Couple

Before this stuff, you had to go to Southpark or Family Guy for openly gay characters.  Even The Simpsons' Smithers had his orientation as a series-long running gag instead of an actual thing.  But now it's officially out in the open, no coming out of any closets necessary.  I'm honestly surprised that Arthur/MLP beat Sesame Street to the punch.  I guess there's always 2020.

Gator's point about dollars is right, as is TFP's point that art and culture influence each other.  Art, culture, dollars - it's not like we didn't see this coming:

No photo description available.

 

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It fits with the points about companies following profits, and culture and art reflecting each other.  Soulless, profit-driven Hasbro decided to do it, just like PBS' Arthur did earlier this year.  Nobody bowed to pressure, they just decided to do it, because the culture has changed from a few years ago.

One would think if not doing it would have been less optimal from a profit standpoint.

Edited by NeuroTypical

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Disney, and in fairness any other company or person that makes movies can't win. If they make movies that are romantic and idealized-people complain that it's not realistic and gritty. If they make movies that are gritty and realistic-people complain that it's depressing or vulgar. After all, if a movie tries to present a reality that I'm haven't experienced (because that's the only really that matters) it must be wrong.  

I was right when I said "Haters gonna hate." A certain type of person is going to complain no matter what. 

Edited by MormonGator

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On 6/22/2019 at 4:55 PM, Mores said:

I'm not so sure it was.  We must make allowances for one being a musical, and one being a drama (albeit with a fairly comical use of fingers in glass bottles).

Here's what I see:

The overall setting from WSS was more believable.  They represented rival gangs, mostly segregated along racial divides who were battling each other for turf and power.
The details and characteristics of individuals in Warriors was more believable.  

But for the movie to start off with a big "Parley" among street gangs was more unrealistic than the cheezy acting from WSS acting.  Remember that when a person goes to see WSS, no one in their minds is thinking that real life street gangs go around singing and dancing.  But I can guarantee that there are many in 70s America who believed such a mass Parley actually occurred on a regular basis.  I know, because many I grew up with said they "knew" it happened.  Given the expectations, which gave a more incorrect impression of street gangs?

 

Than take it up with Sol Yurick the writer of the Warriors, who said it originally. 

 

On 6/22/2019 at 3:28 PM, mirkwood said:

@MormonGator only if they are Jets or Sharks.

I'm going to make a war movie where the Nazis make sweet tea, trade teddy bears and tell friendly stories with the Allied soldiers. Because that's really how the Battle of the Bulge happened. All that talk about tanks, gunfire, people dying? Giant conspiracy. 

 

Edited by MormonGator

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