Parental Abuse

[Titania]

I will admit this upfront: I feel awkward posting here. And scared. And a whole lot of other emotions. However, I have had a feeling for a very long time now that I should find a help forum, specifically one where I can ask others from my faith for advice. So, now that you all know I am asking for help, here is the problem. 

My husband's mother is emotionally and mentally abusive. I know what this must look like coming from the daughter-in-law, but I don't know how else to say it as I am very serious. 

I could make an endless list of examples and scenarios to show how unstable she is and how dangerous and hurtful it is to be around her. My husband also recognizes her behavior as unhealthy. We have been to a counselor over our situation, and he has offered tremendous help and ideas, one being to read Walking on Eggshells. The book has helped a lot, but we feel we need more help, specifically Heavenly and Spiritual help, but don't know where to turn next. 

We have also prayed and studied scriptures. We have tried talking with her and walking away and not being around her when her personality has turned toxic. But we can't seem to find a balance where we are kept safe from the pain she causes and being with her to try to stay together as a family.

There is no topic to research in the topical guide for our situation, and LDS.org also offers next to nothing on what a child can or should do when faced with an abusive parent, especially when that child is older. 

What we are specifically worried about is how to handle her while still keeping a relationship with her and the rest of her family. She is still my husband's mother, and I respect her for raising him to be so wonderful. However, I do not respect the way she treats him. No mother should treat a child the way I have seen her treat my husband. 

So I ask, what more can we do?  We constantly pray for help and answers and often inspiration will help, but her behavior is still toxic. She is a daughter of God, and we are an eternal family, so how do we balance loving her while keeping ourselves safe as our own family unit?

I realize that without providing many more details I may not have given you all enough to go on, but I want to try to avoid that as I don't want to become too angry, gossip, or write something I will regret. If more detail helps, I am willing to give examples and the like for better advice. We simply don't know where else to turn. 

[Guest]

If your mother in law is truly abusive and toxic, cut her out of your life before she causes further problems.

You need to draw a line here and now.  What is going to happen when the mother in law begins abusing your children?  What is going to happen when the mother in law causes tension in your own marriage?  What is going to happen when the mother in law wants to move in?  Abusers rarely get better.  They just get worse and more and more assertive.  If you don't draw the lines now, this situation will get worse and worse.

You need to defend your eternal family.  Forget coddling the abusive mother in law - defend your family.  Protecting your husband trumps coddling the abusive mother in law.  Get her out of your life.

(As you have not given examples of what you are dealing with, I am taking the word "abuse" at face value.  But I think if the problem is to the point you are going to counseling about it, then the situation is serious and nothing good can come from mother in law playing an active role in your family).

Edited July 4, 2017 by DoctorLemon

[NeuroTypical]

Hi Titania,

You're very much not the only person with a story like this.  That said, it's important to realize something.  Your husband's relationship with his mother is his to conduct as he wishes.  It's not well-advised to try to make it what you think it should be.  It's not really your place to fix him, but support him as he tries to walk healthily. 

All the other stuff you probably already know. "honor thy father and mother" does not mean "be a doormat".  If/when your kids are involved, you have stewardship over them, and a big say in what they are exposed to.  You don't have to put up with you being treated badly.  

Good luck!  You picked hubby, and you chose these in-laws to be a part of the deal.  It's a long-term thing.

[my two cents]

I would keep the relationship going from a distance.  Send cards, letters, flowers but no phone calls, emails or face-to-face where she can respond in a hurtful way.  

[Just_A_Guy]

Yeah, the Church as an institution doesn't tend to give specifics for dealing with these sorts of scenarios.  Your solution lies in common sense, listening to the Spirit, and educating yourself from the best of what modern psychotherapy has to offer.

I would suggest that you not let the whole "but our family is supposed to be eternal!!!" thing, to let you get your priorities skewed.  The first eternal family you need to look to, is the one that consists of yourself and your spouse.  The rest can come later, especially when they are behaving destructively.

[Jane_Doe]

Hi @Titania.  My great admiration for taking so many brave and wise steps to addressing this.

Honoring your mother (in law) and that parental relationship doesn't mean you have to stand around with toxic behavior.  You can still honor and love her, even if that means you're not seeing every week.  Regulating distance is the keep for having healthy relationships, and in this case it sounds like more distance is better.  You will find church talks on honoring parents and how that's different than being a doormat or allowing toxic harm.

[Sunday21]

Hi @Titania. Many people make the rule that in a relationship each child is primarily responsible for their parents. That is, your husband is primarily responsible for his mother - not you! If your mom in law behaves badly, it is his responsibility to talk to his mother not you. Good luck!

[seashmore]

The first question I would ask myself in your shoes is how long has she been like this? If she was not this way when he was a child or when you got married, you should have your husband suggest she (or your father-in-law) bring the issue up with her medical doctor. Lots of things can cause personality changes, and it's important to rule those out before taking drastic action.

My second question is, how close are you geographically? Could you get by with only short holiday visits, or is she close enough that the kids are going to wonder why they don't see Grandma very often? Are your kids old enough to understand that her behavior is inappropriate?

For what it's worth, I'm more of a fleer than a fighter. There's a scripture in Matthew that talks about loving God more than parents. I'm on my way out the door, so I'll see if I can find it for you later. As others have mentioned, since it is your husband's mother, it is primarily your husband's responsibility. Also, does he have siblings? Do any of them see the same issues you're seeing?

[Sunday21]

I have a very difficult relative. She sometimes screams abuse. I notice that she does this to me and not to others. Why? I forgive and I don't talk back (Well sometimes I do! If really pushed! ) I have a male relative who rarely calls her - she could not be nicer to him! Just a thought!

Edited July 5, 2017 by Sunday21

[Titania]

Hello all. Thank you so much for the responses and suggestions. I figure to help answer some of my other questions, I will answer the ones I have seen here. Hopefully we can all get some better insight. I just worry about going on for too long. So please continue to bear with me! I'll try to go in order of what I saw that may need to be addressed. I do want to add here that his mother does have some wonderful points and qualities. We do love her and the rest of the family (even when she is hard to deal with); we just don't know how to handle the situations as they approach.Distance may end up needing to be just the thing, but I admit, we are hoping for better/more because we want to be with his family. So hopefully by this we can find a few more alternatives.

My husband and I agree that he needs to be the one to address his mother, and he has. The problem is she either will not listen or will cut him off and begin yelling at him. We both feel bad because neither of us enjoy conflict and would rather see the issues resolved, but she is unwilling to listen or talk about why we feel hurt. Neither of us know how to approach her. We want to be in on this as husband and wife as well, and I support him in his decisions and agree with him. We know the relationship is toxic, but she IS his mother, and I do respect her for the man she raised my husband to be. However, neither of us can respect the way she treats him, or us, or even the rest of the family (more on that in a bit). We are also concerned with the idea that, yes, families are meant to be eternal. We don't want to cut her or anyone else out of that if we can help it. But again, we know how damaging she can be. That's why we are so torn on what to do.

Cutting her out doesn't feel right in an eternal perspective, but talking to her has not helped or changed the situation. Walking away is usually our best response, but we haven't always had the option. She once cornered us in her house to berate us over something she didn't agree with. It got to the point where my husband put himself in front of me and had to move her to the side so we could pass. There was another time, just recently, where in our own home, she blocked the front door so we couldn't leave. We were lucky a neighbor came by. She finally left after our insisting and out of wanting to save face in front of someone else. We both want to try to avoid these situations and the problems, yet we still want to be involved with the family, especially since he still has younger siblings at home. (Again, I'll tackle the siblings bit later so I try to answer all the questions chronologically).

As far as the distance, we live relatively close. It's about a 20 minute drive to her home. My husband and I have seriously considered moving, but he is still going to college and close to getting his degree, and I have a job that I love that I would be very sad to leave. My family is also close, and we wouldn't want to be far from them. We also love our community and the friends we have here. We love the location as it is close to both school and work and family for us as well as many other places we like to go. We're rather active. We also don't want her to influence our lives to the point where we feel we have to move. That just doesn't feel right to us.

This brings us to the question of how can we honor and love her while still drawing the line? She takes any form of "disobedience" as hating her and the rest of the family. If we don't agree with her on certain points, we have been yelled at, given the silent treatment, denied being with the family, and much more. Yet my husband and I are still our own family and need to do what is best for us, so in doing what we feel is right and not always doing as she wishes (especially when it is wrong) not honoring and loving her? How can we balance loving her and being our own family? Is keeping away from her going against showing love to her? 

The question was also asked how long she has been like this. Honestly, it is as long as my husband can remember. He remembers some of his friends not wanting to come over because of the way his mom acted. She is sunshine, roses, and perfection from a distance, but if you get too close, she is the complete opposite. My husband's close friends were able to pick up on this quickly. His father (so my father-in-law) attributes her behavior to a time when she was "let go" from a women's choir and given a book on self improvement.(To add to this, my father-in-law is not supportive of us. We would rather talk to him than her any time, but he has been known to turn his back on his kids to make his wife happy. Now, I get that a husband and wife should work together, but I don't think that means one should betray the trust of a child). From my perspective, if she was given a book on how to be kind and a better person from the choir she was in, that tells me she has had issues before that. But I don't know. I only know what I've witnessed while dating my husband and while I have been married to him. However, my husband feels the same way I do. This makes us think that it is likely she will not be changing her behavior anytime in the near future, so it is our behavior that will matter. But again, we're trapped between that balance of respecting her while also respecting ourselves and our decisions. We also aren't positive what we want or need to do to hopefully get appropriate responses from her. We are hoping that by leaving or not being around her when she is being unkind that she will realize that in order to have us with her, she will need to be kind. That, I suppose, is part of the irony. She wants her family with her, but she is very controlling and abusive, which pushes us (and them) away. It's very sad. 

Switching topics just a bit again back to how close we are to her, I do worry about our future children. We don't have any children as of yet, but we know we want them sometime soon in the future. I worry about how they will be treated the most. I don't know what I will do if she hurts our children. I can't stand it when she hurts my husband. If she says something awful to me, I can more or less get over it. I can forgive, but there is often still hurt left behind. When she hurts my husband however, I can't handle that. There have been times where I can't stand how she is treating him or talking to him and have had to step in and say it's time to walk away. With this, I can only imagine what would happen if she hurt our children. The other part I worry about concerns us. Having children is a very personal decision between husband and wife and God. However, my mother-in-law does not seem to feel the same. She has told us having children "is NOT in our plans." PERIOD. We can't even joke about kids without her getting angry. As a wife and future mother, I won't lie, that hurts. And it makes me scared how she will respond when we do announce we are having kids. My husband and I are terrified to tell her and have talked about not even telling her but just letting her find out. I also don't know what we will do at the hospital. She all but barged in on my sister-in-law when she was giving birth. (Somehow, it is fine for her to have kids. I don't understand it, and I probably won't get into it here because there is a lot of back story and speculation). Anyway, we simply can't have that. We have sadly looked into how to mark on a birth plan how to keep guests out until we are ready. That's the one solution we have to far for that situation, but it only covers part of it.

As far as his other siblings, we can see how her behavior has effected them. The oldest refuses to come over (unless he sees some kind of benefit :\), and he often will not talk with the siblings because he is worried we are all spying on him for his mom. Next is my husband and me, then there is my husband's sister and brother-in-law. They often stay at his family's home more than they visit her's. This is the interesting couple mentioned above. My mother-in-law basically lives vicariously through them and hand-picked my sister-in-law's husband, so they can do no wrong. I have seen her upset with them, but she won't come after them like she does the other siblings. In fact, when she's upset with them because they haven't done what she has wanted, she takes it out on the rest of the family. After the sister is a younger brother. He has expressed a wish to move out, but he doesn't think he could afford rent on his own. From what we know, he wants to find some room mates after his summer job ends. He works at EFY over the summer--this was clever on his end because it gets him away from the problems and his mom can't say "no" because it is a church program. The two youngest siblings are twins, and they are waiting eagerly for their mission calls. They want to leave as soon as they can, but they are worried because their mom wants them to wait. She has told them that they are not ready and that their older brother was not mature enough to go, so they should obviously wait because they can't handle it. Needless to say, they are upset and pushing for mission papers, which is hard considering they need parental help to get all of their check-ups and etc. in order before they go.

It is sad because we can see that her actions are pushing her family away from her. Sadly, she cannot or refuses to see that. My father-in-law does try to help relations and keep everyone together, but more often than not, he will turn against his kids to keep his wife happy. My husband is very disheartened over this. He is also worried about his parents. He doesn't know how they have managed to stay together so long because there have been times when he has wondered if his mom even loves his dad. It's heartbreaking. So, I suppose, to end with, we have a lot of concerns.  Our main one is still trying to figure out how to handle his mom and try to stay together with his siblings. I hope this adds some extra insight and maybe will spark some ideas of solutions we could try or actions to take.

Again, thank you all so much for your time and help and for reading the giant posts. My husband and I are grateful.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Titania

[my two cents]

First, I'm sorry this has been going on.

Some time ago, I read one of the 5 Love Languages books (check your library) and there was a story in there of someone with strained relations who figured there was nothing to lose by trying to speak the person's love language and sure enough, over time the person thawed out/warmed up and the situation improved.  Other than that, look into the EmotionCode (developed by an LDS chiropractor).  Either get the book or find someone to work with.  There is hope but you have to be willing to think outside the box.

Edited July 5, 2017 by my two cents

[Titania]

4 hours ago, my two cents said:

First, I'm sorry this has been going on.

Some time ago, I read one of the 5 Love Languages books (check your library) and there was a story in there of someone with strained relations who figured there was nothing to lose by trying to speak the person's love language and sure enough, over time the person thawed out/warmed up and the situation improved.  Other than that, look into the EmotionCode (developed by an LDS chiropractor).  Either get the book or find someone to work with.  There is hope but you have to be willing to think outside the box.

This is so interesting! I was thinking about the book earlier and talking about how my mother-in-law's love language might work. I don't think this is coincidence, so I'll have to check it out. You are all giving us a lot of ideas here. Thank you!

[anatess2]

Titania, I will admit that I didn't read the entire 2nd post but I did take these statements from it - She is wonderful but with a terrible flaw, she lives closeby, she's always been like this.

That's all I need to know really.

I completely disagree with the advice to Drop Her.  We don't do that, especially to family.  Jesus did not avoid going to the sinner's house for dinner.  Basically, the way I see this is - how can we influence people to come closer to Christ if we "drop them"?

So, we get to work on having a relationship but not get mired in the toxicity.  That I can help with.  First thing to remember:  You can't control your mother-in-law, you can only control how you react to her.

So you say she hurts you.  Why do you think she hurts you?  She yells at your husband.  So?  Why would this hurt you (or your husband)?  You know she has a flaw, you know she's in the wrong, you know what she's doing is contrary to God's desire, you also know it is a mental illness.  So why would this hurt you?  I would posit that the answer this hurts you is because you EXPECT her to talk to your husband the way YOU want her to talk to your husband.  Alas, you can't control how she talks to your husband.  But, you can control how you react to it - feeling hurt is a choice you made as a response to her actions.  I say choose differently.  So she starts yelling at your husband... one way to choose to respond to it is to just stand there and wait it out, let her yell until she loses steam, then say to your husband (because your husband should be dealing with her, not you - he's dealt with her his entire life after all), "Baby, that was rough, but we both know your mother has mental illness and this is just the way she knows how to cope with it, so let me rub your back and assure you that I still love your mother very much even if she's difficult.".  That would ease the toll the yelling put on your husband...

You get the idea?

Forgiveness doesn't need an I'm Sorry nor a change in someone's behavior.  Love is giving the person the freedom to fail and still be held near and dear to your heart.  But more than that - Love is bringing that person with you closer to Christ.  When your mother-in-law is facing her mental challenge, she is far from Christ.  You can help her get closer to Christ by helping her develop better coping mechanisms.  Unfortunately, this is a tricky situation and should be dealt with by professionals.  So, unless you got good advice from professionals on how to help her develop better coping mechanisms, the most you can really do is forgive her for her weakness and make her feel Christ's love through you.

Hope this helps.

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by anatess2

[omegaseamaster75]

On 7/5/2017 at 0:09 PM, Titania said:

Cutting her out doesn't feel right in an eternal perspective,

You are not cutting her off eternally only temporally.  God will sort the eternal part out later.

Why would you want someone so toxic in your life?  think about your kids when you have them do you want to expose them to that behavior? I am sure the answer is no but if you don't cut it off now you won't be able to later. 

Also your husband really needs to put his foot down.  You say he deals with her but it is not working so he has not been firm enough.  Time to man up and let her know whats what.

 

[anatess2]

14 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said:

You are not cutting her off eternally only temporally.  God will sort the eternal part out later.

Why would you want someone so toxic in your life?  think about your kids when you have them do you want to expose them to that behavior? I am sure the answer is no but if you don't cut it off now you won't be able to later. 

Also your husband really needs to put his foot down.  You say he deals with her but it is not working so he has not been firm enough.  Time to man up and let her know whats what.

 

There is nobody better positioned to bring this mother to her eternal potential than her husband and son.  Yes, it is ultimately her responsibility to come to Christ.  But the eternal part will not sort in favor of an eternal family if this mother continues down the wrong path.

This is something I do not like about American culture.  The culture tends to hold their parents no better than acquaintances.

You don't want someone bringing toxicity to your life.  There are ways to stop the toxicity from bleeding into your life without having to eliminate the person from your life.  There are ways to teach children to deal with toxic grandparents.  Yes, there are even ways to teach children to deal with a toxic parent.  My kids are proof.

Edited July 6, 2017 by anatess2

[Titania]

I'm curious in the "teaching children how to cope with a toxic grandparent" bit. What have you done for your kids that has helped? If you're okay sharing, that is. I would like ideas for the future. 

Again, thank you to everyone who has posted. This has been giving us a lot more to think about and consider. 

[Sunday21]

I would also like to know  about "teaching children how to cope with a toxic grandparent" bit! Any advice gratefully received! 

[Jane_Doe]

9 hours ago, Titania said:

I'm curious in the "teaching children how to cope with a toxic grandparent" bit. What have you done for your kids that has helped? If you're okay sharing, that is. I would like ideas for the future. 

Again, thank you to everyone who has posted. This has been giving us a lot more to think about and consider. 

Generically: When they are little, it's mostly you shielding them through distance and explaining the truth when grandparent makes a bad comment.  When they get older enough to understand things, it's stressing that you love them but they are not always right-- a warning before interaction.  Things are very age/maturity dependent.  

Beyond that super-general advice... know the general type of toxic would help.  

For an example: my MIL is very blind anti-Mormon, I tell 3 yo DD "Grandma doesn't understand how much we love Christ".    

[The Folk Prophet]

18 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

yo DD "Grandma 

My Grandma was only a D cup when she passed on.

Wait. What are we talking about?

Edited July 7, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[seashmore]

3Ne 11:29 For verily, verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil, who is the father of contention, and he stirreth up the hearts of men to contend with anger, one with another.

 I think you need to bring this up when your MIL is acting out, and then leave the room (if at her place) or insist she leave your home. I've had to do the latter when my sister was visiting me. Appear calm and confident as you clarify that you will not allow such contention in your home. Definitely continue to do things like pray for her and attend the temple (you may consider putting her name on the prayer roll if you know there's a situation coming up, such as a new grandchild).

Is there room for your brother-in-law in your home? I know of a family with a similar dynamic as your husband's where some of the younger siblings moved in with older siblings who had families (with varying degrees of success that depended on the personalities of the siblings) as they saved for missions or went to school.

[Bad Karma]

On 7/5/2017 at 0:57 PM, my two cents said:

First, I'm sorry this has been going on.

Some time ago, I read one of the 5 Love Languages books (check your library) and there was a story in there of someone with strained relations who figured there was nothing to lose by trying to speak the person's love language and sure enough, over time the person thawed out/warmed up and the situation improved.  Other than that, look into the EmotionCode (developed by an LDS chiropractor).  Either get the book or find someone to work with.  There is hope but you have to be willing to think outside the box.

I bought that book last year, my wife and I both took the test online to see what our love languages were. I found it rather interesting, and pretty spot on. I still get the emails from the site, which are pretty insightful. 

[Titania]

On 7/9/2017 at 10:49 PM, seashmore said:

Is there room for your brother-in-law in your home? I know of a family with a similar dynamic as your husband's where some of the younger siblings moved in with older siblings who had families (with varying degrees of success that depended on the personalities of the siblings) as they saved for missions or went to school.

We have talked about asking his brother to come live with us, but we aren't sure if that will cause more contention or not. Right now, since he is working EFY, he is not at home, so things are good for him. I will be interested to see what happens when he goes to return to school. If things seem to get too hard for him at home, my husband and I want to invite him to come live with us, but we'll see. He may have something of his own worked out then. 

There is some good news for my husband's two little brothers (the twins)! They really pushed to get their papers started, and things are slowly moving.  We just all hope they continue to move forward. 

[eddified]

The way you describe his mother very much sounds like my mother, but your mother in law sounds much, much worse in degree. My mother has mental illness. She can be very difficult.

My brother and his wife had such a hard time with her (and my brother's marriage was suffering because of our mother) that they felt they should cut off all contact with her. And they did just that. They tried to get me to join them, and cut off all contact with her, but I didn't feel right about it. After a few years my brother and his wife started allowing limited contact with my mother. 

The lesson I learned is that if your're not at a place where you can handle the abuse, then perhaps cutting off all contact is the best thing for you. Then later as you mature, you may be able to handle a relationship with the toxic person. There is no one solution for everyone, it depends on where you are at emotionally, how abusive she is, and other factors like your children.

I would be more careful about letting her have a relationship with your [as yet unborn] children. Remember, children are very impressionable. Based on what you've said, I would think very strongly about moving away when children come, if not now. The alternative is to somehow draw up some extremely strict boundaries and sticking to them. Be ready to call the police if she won't let you leave, or if she won't let you leave. 

One idea you could try is a trial period. Do not allow any contact for a short time, say 3 months or 6 months. This may give you and your husband some time to reset. Perhaps by doing this you and your husband may come to some realizations. For example, your husband may start realizing some of the more subtle ways he was abused (this may not apply to him, depends on the abuser, my mother is a master manipulator [confirmed by my father's counselor] so some of her abuse is subtle, yet still abuse.) Or you may realize your marriage has fewer problems all around without her in your lives. Or you may realize that you really should include her in your life a little more. 

God bless.