Premortal Life?

[ProDeo]

I an new (first post) and a Protestant, well mainly, just a Christian would fit better.

I am interested in the Mormon doctrine of Premortal Life. When I look at  Chapter 6: Our Premortal Life I read:

We lived as spirit children of God in a premortal existence. “There is no way to make sense out of life without a knowledge of the doctrine of premortal life.

“The idea that mortal birth is the beginning is preposterous. There is no way to explain life if you believe that.

Reading the web-page no Scripture is offered, not even Biblical reasoning, not even philosophical reasoning, just a statement that premortal existence is a fact and if you don't get it you are making no sense, you are being preposterous.

That's not very convincing.

Someone willing to elaborate?

 

[pam]

I'm not sure how you could say that no scripture was offered etc.  The link you provided was filled with scriptural references.

[Sunday21]

More scriptural references for premortal life

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/premortal-life

[zil]

Welcome, @ProDeo!  I look forward to your thoughts on the links in the lesson, and the one Sunday21 provided.

[Sunday21]

dup

Edited July 9, 2017 by Sunday21

[Jane_Doe]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

More scriptural references for premortal life

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/premortal-life

(Jane copy/pasting...)

The life before earth life. All men and women lived with God as His spirit children before coming to the earth as mortal beings. This is sometimes called the first estate (Abr. 3:26).

• When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38:4–7.

• The spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7.

• Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:4–5.

• We are all his offspring, Acts 17:28.

• God chose us before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:3–4.

• We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9.

• The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, Jude 1:6(Abr. 3:26).

• The Devil and his angels were cast out, Rev. 12:9.

• They were called and prepared from the foundation of the world, Alma 13:3.

• Christ looked upon the expanse of eternity and hosts of heaven before the world was made, D&C 38:1.

• Man was also in the beginning with God, D&C 93:29 (Hel. 14:17; D&C 49:17).

• Noble spirits were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the Church, D&C 138:53–55.

• Many received their first lessons in the world of spirits, D&C 138:56.

• All things were created spiritually before they were on earth, Moses 3:5.

• I made the world, and men before they were in the flesh, Moses 6:51.

• Abraham saw the intelligences that were organized before the world was, Abr. 3:21–24.

 

I'm also going to ping @anatess2, because she's really good at explaining this.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Jane_Doe]

5 hours ago, ProDeo said:

I an new (first post) and a Protestant, well mainly, just a Christian would fit better.

I am interested in the Mormon doctrine of Premortal Life. When I look at  Chapter 6: Our Premortal Life I read:

(I should have done this first)

Hi @ProDeo, and welcome to the forum!   You are most welcome here (we even have non-LDS mods).  I also really really would like to point out the awesomeness that is you learning about the LDS faith from ACTUAL good first-hand sources (both here and reading that excellent teaching manual).  I majorly respect that.  

 

[Jane_Doe]

Here is an excellent sermon on the importance of the Plan of Salvation and premarital life given by Apostle Robert D. Hales, just October 2015. 

https://www.lds.org/liahona/2015/10/the-plan-of-salvation-a-sacred-treasure-of-knowledge-to-guide-us?lang=eng&_r=1

 

 

Adding my voice to the chorus as just as myself--

The key counterpoint of the Plan of Salvation as a whole is agency-- our ability to choose right or wrong, or in other words, to choose to follow God or rebel against Him.  Agency is the greatest gift God has given us.  He rejoices when we choose to follow Him, but will not force it upon anyone-- when you truly love someone you let them choose, not force them.  Sometimes people choose to reject God, and that is the worse pain any parent (let alone a perfect Heavenly Father) can feel.  But it is their choice.  In this life our choice is readily apparent because we live this life every day.  But us even being in this life is not just whimsically God making something (and someone) up.  Rather, He knew us before this life: loved us, taught us, and let us choose -- He's ever consistent that way.  Each one of us choose to follow Him back then: we accepted His plan to be born to Earth, to experience this life (good and bad), to grow, and with that growth choose again.  Those that did not choose to follow Him back then instead choose to rebel and were cast out, becoming Satan and his followers.  Lucifer/Satan choose.  Christ choose.  We choose.  God loved us before we were formed in our mothers' bellies, and continues to do so-- this life is not whimsically created and thrust upon us.  

[CV75]

6 hours ago, ProDeo said:

I an new (first post) and a Protestant, well mainly, just a Christian would fit better.

I am interested in the Mormon doctrine of Premortal Life. When I look at  Chapter 6: Our Premortal Life I read:
 

 

Reading the web-page no Scripture is offered, not even Biblical reasoning, not even philosophical reasoning, just a statement that premortal existence is a fact and if you don't get it you are making no sense, you are being preposterous.

That's not very convincing.

Someone willing to elaborate?

 

I think if you read the entire chapter and the related scripture links, and the entire passage from which you selected the isolated statements, you will have the context, understanding and elaboration you seek.

Edited July 9, 2017 by CV75

[Snigmorder]

I'll quote the Bible:

"Then the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations." - Jeremiah 1:4-5

Now to quote the book of Abraham: 

"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born."  -Abraham 3:22-23

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Snigmorder

[Guest]

11 hours ago, ProDeo said:

Reading the web-page no Scripture is offered, not even Biblical reasoning, not even philosophical reasoning, just a statement that premortal existence is a fact and if you don't get it you are making no sense, you are being preposterous.

That's not very convincing.

Someone willing to elaborate?

ProDeo,  Welcome to the forum.  

Context, context.  To answer your question, you'll need to become more familiar with some of the doctrines related to those statements.  First, let's put these brief quotes back into context.  Also see the full context.  The speech from which these quotes were obtained is:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/11/the-mystery-of-life?lang=eng

Quote

When we understand the doctrine of premortal life, then things fit together and make sense. We then know that little boys and little girls are not monkeys, nor are their parents, nor were theirs, to the very beginning generation.

We are the children of God, created in his image.

Our child-parent relationship to God is clear.

The purpose for the creation of this earth is clear.

The testing that comes in mortality is clear.

The need for a redeemer is clear.

 

[Vort]

3 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

Feel free to voice any concerns or criticisms you have with the Book of Mormon.

But not in this forum.

[Snigmorder]

4 minutes ago, Vort said:

But not in this forum.

Excuse me, I didn't know it was against policy.

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

Excuse me, I didn't know it was against policy.

Two things:

First, the applicable site rules:

Quote

1. Do not post, upload, or otherwise submit anything to the site that is derogatory towards The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, its teachings, or its leaders. Anti-LDS Propaganda will not be tolerated anywhere.

2. Please be conscious of the fact that although Mormon Hub is aimed towards an LDS audience, that the membership of this site consists of friends from an array of different backgrounds, beliefs, and cultures. Please be respectful and courteous to all, and know that everyone who is willing to follow the Rules and Terms of Mormon Hub are welcome to participate and be a member of Mormon Hub. 

So, be courteous.  Don't link to or copy paste anti-Mormon sites, propaganda, or rhetoric.

Second,

There are appropriate sub-forums for differing topics.  

When posting in the "LDS Gospel Discussion", it is important to start with the assumption and belief that the Church is true. (My opinion).

When posting to the "Learn About the Mormon Church" should start with the position of not being certain about one's own position.  Or possibly the open acceptance of someone else's assumptions (even if it is only for discussion purposes only) from which we can have a common reference for discussion. (Again, my opinion).

When posting in the "Christian Beliefs Forum" any Christian faith (LDS or otherwise) can state things from their own position, but courtesy would demand that we make some effort to try to understand the fundamental assumptions of other faiths.  (Again, my opinion).

I don't know of any other sub-forums where religious debate would be applicable

Edited July 9, 2017 by Guest

[Snigmorder]

4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Two things:

First, the applicable site rules:

So, be courteous.  Don't link to or copy paste anti-Mormon sites, propaganda, or rhetoric.

Second,

There are appropriate sub-forums for differing topics.  

When posting in the "LDS Gospel Discussion", it is important to start with the assumption and belief that the Church is true. (My opinion).

When posting to the "Learn About the Mormon Church" should start with the position of not being certain about one's own position. (Again, my opinion).

When posting in the "Christian Beliefs Forum" any Christian faith (LDS or otherwise) can state things from their own position, but courtesy would demand that we make some effort to try to understand the fundamental assumptions of other faiths.  (Again, my opinion).

I don't know of any other sub-forums where religious debate would be applicable

So what you're trying to say is, the tone of my post is too much.

[Vort]

27 minutes ago, Snigmorder said:

So what you're trying to say is, the tone of my post is too much.

What I was trying to say was:

1 hour ago, Vort said:

4 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

Feel free to voice any concerns or criticisms you have with the Book of Mormon.

But not in this forum.

 

[ProDeo]

15 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

Here is an excellent sermon on the importance of the Plan of Salvation and premarital life given by Apostle Robert D. Hales, just October 2015. 

https://www.lds.org/liahona/2015/10/the-plan-of-salvation-a-sacred-treasure-of-knowledge-to-guide-us?lang=eng&_r=1

Thank you for all the replies, it's quite overwhelming and I don't know where to start. But allow me to comment of this speech. A quote:

As declared in “The Family, a Proclamation to the World,” each of us “is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents” with “a divine nature and destiny.”¹¹ In a premortal council, Heavenly Father explained to us His plan of redemption.

Why the need for redemption? Did the agencies (we) something wrong? Perhaps sinned?

And a few sentences later:

But the plan was not without risk: if we chose in mortality not to live according to God’s eternal laws, we would receive something less than eternal life.

I see another contradiction, in Genesis we read God created a world without death. Death only entered God's creation because of the disobedience of A&E.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Snigmorder said:

So what you're trying to say is, the tone of my post is too much.

No, what I'm trying to say is:

10 hours ago, Carborendum said:

Two things:

First, the applicable site rules:

So, be courteous.  Don't link to or copy paste anti-Mormon sites, propaganda, or rhetoric.

Second,

There are appropriate sub-forums for differing topics.  

When posting in the "LDS Gospel Discussion", it is important to start with the assumption and belief that the Church is true. (My opinion).

When posting to the "Learn About the Mormon Church" should start with the position of not being certain about one's own position.  Or possibly the open acceptance of someone else's assumptions (even if it is only for discussion purposes only) from which we can have a common reference for discussion. (Again, my opinion).

When posting in the "Christian Beliefs Forum" any Christian faith (LDS or otherwise) can state things from their own position, but courtesy would demand that we make some effort to try to understand the fundamental assumptions of other faiths.  (Again, my opinion).

I don't know of any other sub-forums where religious debate would be applicable

 

[ProDeo]

15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

ProDeo,  Welcome to the forum.  

Context, context.  To answer your question, you'll need to become more familiar with some of the doctrines related to those statements.  First, let's put these brief quotes back into context.  Also see the full context.  The speech from which these quotes were obtained is:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1983/11/the-mystery-of-life?lang=eng

 

From the video: This doctrine of premortal life was known to ancient Christians. For nearly five hundred years the doctrine was taught, but it was then rejected as a heresy by a clergy that had slipped into the Dark Ages of apostasy.

Can you tell me which period that was?

Perhaps Mr. Packer refers to the early church father Origen?

[Jane_Doe]

7 hours ago, ProDeo said:

Thank you for all the replies, it's quite overwhelming and I don't know where to start. But allow me to comment of this speech. A quote:

As declared in “The Family, a Proclamation to the World,” each of us “is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents” with “a divine nature and destiny.”¹¹ In a premortal council, Heavenly Father explained to us His plan of redemption.

Why the need for redemption? Did the agencies (we) something wrong? Perhaps sinned?

God knows everything.  Before the Earth was made He knew each of us would sin in this life and would need a redeemer.  And that is now indeed the case.

7 hours ago, ProDeo said:

And a few sentences later:

But the plan was not without risk: if we chose in mortality not to live according to God’s eternal laws, we would receive something less than eternal life.

I see another contradiction, in Genesis we read God created a world without death. Death only entered God's creation because of the disobedience of A&E.

God knew that would happen.  He was not suddenly surprised when A&E partook of the fruit and forced to come up with some Plan B.  God knew this all would happen and always planned for it.  

Edited July 10, 2017 by Jane_Doe

[Jane_Doe]

28 minutes ago, ProDeo said:

From the video: This doctrine of premortal life was known to ancient Christians. For nearly five hundred years the doctrine was taught, but it was then rejected as a heresy by a clergy that had slipped into the Dark Ages of apostasy.

Can you tell me which period that was?

Perhaps Mr. Packer refers to the early church father Origen?

ProDeo, are you familiar with the LDS belief of the Great Apostasy?

[ProDeo]

23 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

• When God laid the foundations of the earth, all the sons of God shouted for joy, Job 38:4–7.

• The spirit shall return unto God who gave it, Eccl. 12:7.

• Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee, Jer. 1:4–5.

• We are all his offspring, Acts 17:28.

• God chose us before the foundation of the world, Eph. 1:3–4.

• We are to be in subjection to the Father of spirits, Heb. 12:9.

• The angels which kept not their first estate, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, Jude 1:6(Abr. 3:26).

• The Devil and his angels were cast out, Rev. 12:9.

I am aware of most of these passages from the Christian Bible as (alleged) evidence for pre-existence but I don't find them convincing,

As for the other quotes you gave from the books you hold sacred (Abraham, Moses) then yes, they teach pre-existence.

So I would say, it comes down if you believe Mr. Smith is a trustable source or not, do I get that right?

 

 

[Jane_Doe]

4 minutes ago, ProDeo said:

I am aware of most of these passages from the Christian Bible as (alleged) evidence for pre-existence but I don't find them convincing,

As for the other quotes you gave from the books you hold sacred (Abraham, Moses) then yes, they teach pre-existence.

So I would say, it comes down if you believe Mr. Smith is a trustable source or not, do I get that right?

 

 

Ultimately the biggest question a person can ask-- not just on this topic, but on any-- is "How can I know Truth?"

Rather than trying to just weigh a million different interpretations and pick which one a person like's best, I would say that the answer is "By going to the source of all Truth, God, and listening to Him".  

Go ask Him.

 

 

[Guest]

53 minutes ago, ProDeo said:

From the video: This doctrine of premortal life was known to ancient Christians. For nearly five hundred years the doctrine was taught, but it was then rejected as a heresy by a clergy that had slipped into the Dark Ages of apostasy.

Can you tell me which period that was?

Perhaps Mr. Packer refers to the early church father Origen?

No, I personally can't.  But that wasn't the question you originally asked.  And it doesn't really have anything to do with the original question.  I prefer to stick with a question until it is answered before going onto additional topics.  Otherwise we're just wandering around with no direction.

You were asking for the logic and reasoning for saying that it is ridiculous to believe in life without pre-existence.  I provided the context in which such a statement was made.  But instead of finding that context and logic, you seem to be asking for evidence.  You didn't first ask about evidence.  It was about logic and scriptural references.

Please see "my rules" above about which forum to post such questions on.  If you're asking to be "convinced" of something, it's not going to happen on an internet forum.  If you're just asking for academic knowledge, then the "Learn about the Mormon Church" sub-forum is more appropriate.  If you're wanting an open debate, that can happen in a limited capacity on the "Christian Beliefs" sub-forum.  It really is inappropriate for the "LDS Gospel Discussions" sub-forum.

[ProDeo]

28 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

God knows everything.  Before the Earth was made He knew each of us would sin in this life and would need a redeemer.  And that is now indeed the case.

God knew that would happen.  He was not suddenly surprised when A&E partook of the fruit and forced to come up with some Plan B.  No, that would be silly.  God knew this all would happen and always planned for it.  

Allow me to ask, how does this address the 2 points I made?

In more detail then.

Unless I am mistaken about the Mormon doctrine - we were all living in the presence, love and glory of the Father and at some point Father God (popularly stated) said - You guys need redemption. And - I am going to sent you to Earth, erase your memory, you live and then you die.

Why would a loving God do that?

Seems to me the logical answer is that we sinned (notable) in His presence.

And we know from Scripture that the penalty of sin is death.

It's only then pre-existence is making sense to me.

If pre-existence is true is of course another matter :-)