True Religion Test

[Sunday21]

8 hours ago, clbent04 said:

@person0 I think you're taking my original idea out of context.  I'm not talking about comparing a single sermon from one church against a single talk from another. I'm talking about the life experience and relationship one has to the Holy Spirit when applying all the principles of one's faith, and not only that, but the experience of the environment that kind of structure creates in relation to how one experiences the Holy Spirit.  Surely every devout member across every faith experiences the Holy Spirit to a different degree if only pieces of what they practice and believe in are true.  The Holy Spirit will not testify to them of false teachings.  Therefore, if everything the LDS church teaches is true, the devout and faithful members of the LDS church will be able to experience the Holy Spirit more abundantly over the course of their lives than those of other faiths

I do not think that your original assumption is true. A devout nonmormon would feel the spirit more deeply and more frequently than a less devout Mormon.

[clbent04]

44 minutes ago, Sunday21 said:

I do not think that your original assumption is true. A devout nonmormon would feel the spirit more deeply and more frequently than a less devout Mormon.

This doesn't actually contradict my original assumption, nor is it something I disagree with. The example I provided earlier was only comparing people across different faiths who had equal levels of devotion in their respective faiths. I never branched out into how that would translate amongst people of varying levels of devotion

Edited August 6, 2017 by clbent04

[Sunday21]

31 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

This doesn't actually contradict my original assumption, nor is it something I disagree with. The example I provided earlier was only comparing people across different faiths who had equal levels of devotion in their respective faiths. I never branched out into how that would translate amongst people of varying levels of devotion

In the lds faith, once you have been confirmed, you can have the Holy Ghost with you always if you are worthy. Others will be guided by the Holy Ghost as God deems necessary/useful. I do not see how you would quantify the differences between lds and nonlds in terms of the Holy Ghost. 

Compare two people one lds and one nonlds, the nonlds may very well experience the Holy Ghost more often and more strongly. The nonlds person may well be more worthy than the lds person and may be in situations that God deems appropriate for the Holy Ghost.

Consider the case of at @prisonchaplain as an example. Clearly, he is more in tune with the Holy Ghost than many, perhaps most lds. Why? He is worthy. His job may benefit from the Holy Ghost's promptings. 

 

Edited August 6, 2017 by Sunday21

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, Sunday21 said:

In the lds faith, once you have been confirmed, you can have the Holy Ghost with you always if you are worthy. Others will be guided by the Holy Ghost as God deems necessary/useful. I do not see how you would quantify the differences between lds and nonlds in terms of the Holy for the Holy Ghost.

@Sunday21 That's just it, you can't quantify the difference between LDS and non-LDS in terms of the Holy Spirit. We are far too limited to be able to take on such a task. BUT that's the only truly unbiased approach I can think of in terms of fairly cross examining all religions to determine which religion is indeed the one and only true religion of God if any one religion exists.

So I'm left with a solution I have no way of executing myself

Edited August 6, 2017 by clbent04

[Guest]

10 hours ago, clbent04 said:

@person0 Excellent response. Thanks. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I do need a different approach to evaluating the one and only true religion of God.  I just want to do so in an unbiased and informed approach. 

One thing to consider is that this (the method outlined in the OP) has not been the pattern in history.  Even scientific method does not do this.

SCIENTIFIC METHOD:

We are taught that scientific method means 1) Hypothesis 2) Test 3) Observation 4) Conclusion.  For a research scientist, this is so basic, it is like learning to count.  A real scientist who is doing research constantly only starts there and goes a hundred steps farther.  They know that whatever findings they have are always going to be incomplete.  Why?  Because it is absolutely impossible to test every single aspect of a hypothesis in every single situation.

Another thing we're taught is that if the hypothesis fails in only a single test, then the entire hypothesis must be thrown out.  That is also incorrect.  Why?  Because we also recognize that our hypotheses are limited in their scope by their very nature.  This automatically means that any results we get will be flawed.  In the real world, ANY test always involves so many variables (many of which we aren't even scientifically aware of) that it is impossible to account for all of them.

So, with every test, we simply add that to the storehouse of knowledge of society.  Over much time, we develop more confidence in this or that idea.  Even the law of universal gravitation stood for two hundred years until it had to be modified.  Notice, it was not thrown out because of one exception.  It was modified to encompass a broader understanding of how the universe worked.

DIVINE KNOWLEDGE:

Because divine knowledge is so far above us and beyond our understanding, we cannot simply learn the deep truths of the universe on scientific method alone.  Can this help?  Sure. But it would be hubris to think we understand enough to apply scientific method and understand everything about God.  So, how does God reveal truth to us?  Well, look at the bolded word.  He reveals it to us, i.e revelation.

Now, we talk about the impressions of the Spirit a lot.  But we fail to understand what it is.  Even Galatians gives a wrong impression in the way it is taught.  Missionaries tend to give the impression that we're to get a burning in the bosom at every truth.  But that simply isn't how we receive truth.

When in school, we're taught a lot of things.  Most of them true.  Do we feel a burning in the bosom from learning the pythagorean theorem?  I never have.  But being gifted in math, I get this feeling of "hmm.  Yeah, that makes sense."  When I was young I didn't really understand why.  But I just got the notion that it was right.  I believed it and moved on.

Why is it that so many people who struggle with math can't simply memorize the equation and move on?  Some do.  But do they really "know" it is true?  Do they have a "testimony" of it?  Not really.  I know it sounds silly, but I have an understanding and "feel" for math where I can say I have a "testimony" of the pythagorean theorem.  So, why can't we apply this same type of test to spiritual knowledge?  Actually, I did.

I was born in Korea.  My Korean family were part of a protestant sect.  I don't know which one.  It may have been non-denominational.  One thing I do remember was noticing the frequency at which I kept thinking, "That doesn't sound right."  Were there some truths?  Yes, of course.  But it was really bothersome that I kept thinking things didn't make sense.  And when I'd ask questions they just tried to shut me up and tell me I was too young to understand.

I was adopted by a Mormon family in America.  One thing I noticed was the frequency at which I kept thinking,"Yeah, that makes sense."  Still, there were some things that didn't make sense.  And I had a lot of questions.  The difference then was not that they thought I was too young to understand.  It was that they didn't even understand the questions.  That bothered me.  But I had to learn to phrase questions the right way, and to ask the right people.  When I did, I got more answers.  But there were many that could not be answered.  But instead of being told I was too young, they'd say that some things like this are to be revealed by the Spirit to us individually.

THE DIFFICULTY:

I was born with a gift for math.  Others are not.  So, does it seem fair that each of us is judged the same?  Well, thankfully, we're not judged on our math ability.  But the same disparity exists in the spiritual realm.  Some are born with a "knack" for feeling the Spirit.  Others are not.  What we are all born with is the desire to know.  As we nurture that desire for truth, the spiritual sensitivity will always grow in anyone.  It is when we stop desiring to know the truth, that this growth stops an begins to diminish.  Unlike math or music, or dancing, or football, we all have an equal ability to develop our spiritual sensitivity no matter where we began in life.

Some may take longer to develop it than others.  But the important thing is that we can all develop it.  And we must.  Our eternal destiny depends on it.  Always remain open to the truth.  Always seek the truth. Always live the truth.  Eventually truth will come to you.

Edited August 6, 2017 by Guest

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Consider the case of at @prisonchaplain as an example. Clearly, he is more in tune with the Holy Ghost than many, perhaps most lds. Why? He is worthy. His job may benefit from the Holy Ghost's promptings. 

 

That felt really good. Thanks. It was definitely worth it. Here is what I promised: 

[Sunday21]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

@Sunday21 That's just it, you can't quantify the difference between LDS and non-LDS in terms of the Holy Spirit. We are far too limited to be able to take on such a task. BUT that's the only truly unbiased approach I can think of in terms of fairly cross examining all religions to determine which religion is indeed the one and only true religion of God if any one religion exists.

So I'm left with a solution I have no way of executing myself

I think that Heavenly Father has designed his scriptures such that the only way to know which church is true is to ask Him.

[Grunt]

3 hours ago, clbent04 said:

@Sunday21 That's just it, you can't quantify the difference between LDS and non-LDS in terms of the Holy Spirit. We are far too limited to be able to take on such a task. BUT that's the only truly unbiased approach I can think of in terms of fairly cross examining all religions to determine which religion is indeed the one and only true religion of God if any one religion exists.

So I'm left with a solution I have no way of executing myself

Untrue.  You have a solution you can execute yourself.  Read.  Question.  Pray.  Live.  

[CV75]

20 hours ago, clbent04 said:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declares that the way to find out which church is the true church of God is through the Holy Spirit.  The true church of God will have a greater presence of the Holy Spirit than any other religion.

One of the greatest claims that the Mormon Church advocates is that the Holy Spirit has the greatest prominence within the Mormon Church in comparison to other religions.  The Holy Spirit can still be felt and experienced in other religions, but to a lesser extent.  This is because the Mormon Church lays claim to representing Christ’s gospel in its pure form, not one that has been corrupted over the years.

In order to truly accept this claim as a member of the Church, consider the following:

How can we identify that the Holy Ghost has a unique and most prominent presence in the Mormon religion if we have never experienced anything else?  And even if you started now to try and compare religions side by side, how would you do so without bias?  Is it not likely that your views will be skewed in favor towards whatever you grew up with?

Thousands of religions exist in the world today and there is no way one person could dedicate the necessary time and effort in this life to each one in order to fairly cross examine all religions.  I think you would need to experience life under the roof of a Baptist family, a Buddhist, Jewish, and Muslim family and so on to be able to honestly assert the prominence of the Holy Spirit in one religion verses another.  Studying a religion’s beliefs on paper may not capture what its members find significant about it.  After all, the greatest reason mankind has been drawn to religion lies with the unseen.

Fairly cross examining all religions in relation to the prominence of the Holy Spirit is a daunting task which I don’t think is possible for anyone to accomplish.

We do not say that the Holy Spirit has more prominence in our Church. We say we have the restored keys to perform the saving ordinances including the bestowal of the gift of the Holy Ghost after baptism.

We do not say the Holy Ghost is felt to a lesser extent through other religions. We say the power of the Holy Ghost as a witness of the truth can be felt by anyone of any (or no) religion.

Granted, no one can do anything without bias. But the Lord will bless the pure in heart that honor His light, and upon hearing His word they will eventually discover the power and witness of the Holy Ghost. People of all (or no) faith traditions can do that without rigorous cross-examination.

The honoring of God's truth in all its forms is not a purely rational process, “for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings [Greek: “sightings”] which cannot be uttered.” (Romans 8:26). So the approach is to cleave to whatever light and truth we have come our way, or have sought out regardless of how we like the answer.

[askandanswer]

20 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Not to say that all emotion is equivalent to the feeling of the Holy Spirit. But obviously people of other faiths are experiencing the Holy Spirit to some extent, and it seems impossible to discern across the board where the Holy Spirit most abundantly abides

I think this is an absurd way of evaluating the truthfulness of a religion. It's not whether one religion has more or less of the Holy Spirit than another religion that is important, its what the Holy Spirit says to you, and the confirmation it blesses you with. The Holy Ghost has confirmed to me the truthfulness of the gospel taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and of the divinity of President Monson's calling and of the holy scriptures. That's how I know that this is the true church, and not because I have done a comparison of how much of the Holy Spirit is present in this church compared to any other religion.

[clbent04]

On 8/6/2017 at 11:39 AM, askandanswer said:

I think this is an absurd way of evaluating the truthfulness of a religion. It's not whether one religion has more or less of the Holy Spirit than another religion that is important, its what the Holy Spirit says to you, and the confirmation it blesses you with. The Holy Ghost has confirmed to me the truthfulness of the gospel taught by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and of the divinity of President Monson's calling and of the holy scriptures. That's how I know that this is the true church, and not because I have done a comparison of how much of the Holy Spirit is present in this church compared to any other religion.

What if you grew up in an Islamic household and everyone including yourself were devote followers of the teachings of the Quran?  And say the Holy Spirit bore witness to you of the truthfulness of the Quran maybe because in part the Quran does hold some true teachings.  Would you then say it would be absurd to study any other religion because you already felt the Holy Spirit in your life with your current set of beliefs?  Would you then not feel the need to seek out anything further?  Do you think there aren't any practicing members of Islam out there who aren't equally converted to their faith based on the spiritual experiences they've had?  

[clbent04]

On 8/6/2017 at 7:54 AM, Carborendum said:

One thing to consider is that this (the method outlined in the OP) has not been the pattern in history.  Even scientific method does not do this.

SCIENTIFIC METHOD:

We are taught that scientific method means 1) Hypothesis 2) Test 3) Observation 4) Conclusion.  For a research scientist, this is so basic, it is like learning to count.  A real scientist who is doing research constantly only starts there and goes a hundred steps farther.  They know that whatever findings they have are always going to be incomplete.  Why?  Because it is absolutely impossible to test every single aspect of a hypothesis in every single situation.

Another thing we're taught is that if the hypothesis fails in only a single test, then the entire hypothesis must be thrown out.  That is also incorrect.  Why?  Because we also recognize that our hypotheses are limited in their scope by their very nature.  This automatically means that any results we get will be flawed.  In the real world, ANY test always involves so many variables (many of which we aren't even scientifically aware of) that it is impossible to account for all of them.

So, with every test, we simply add that to the storehouse of knowledge of society.  Over much time, we develop more confidence in this or that idea.  Even the law of universal gravitation stood for two hundred years until it had to be modified.  Notice, it was not thrown out because of one exception.  It was modified to encompass a broader understanding of how the universe worked.

DIVINE KNOWLEDGE:

Because divine knowledge is so far above us and beyond our understanding, we cannot simply learn the deep truths of the universe on scientific method alone.  Can this help?  Sure. But it would be hubris to think we understand enough to apply scientific method and understand everything about God.  So, how does God reveal truth to us?  Well, look at the bolded word.  He reveals it to us, i.e revelation.

Now, we talk about the impressions of the Spirit a lot.  But we fail to understand what it is.  Even Galatians gives a wrong impression in the way it is taught.  Missionaries tend to give the impression that we're to get a burning in the bosom at every truth.  But that simply isn't how we receive truth.

When in school, we're taught a lot of things.  Most of them true.  Do we feel a burning in the bosom from learning the pythagorean theorem?  I never have.  But being gifted in math, I get this feeling of "hmm.  Yeah, that makes sense."  When I was young I didn't really understand why.  But I just got the notion that it was right.  I believed it and moved on.

Why is it that so many people who struggle with math can't simply memorize the equation and move on?  Some do.  But do they really "know" it is true?  Do they have a "testimony" of it?  Not really.  I know it sounds silly, but I have an understanding and "feel" for math where I can say I have a "testimony" of the pythagorean theorem.  So, why can't we apply this same type of test to spiritual knowledge?  Actually, I did.

I was born in Korea.  My Korean family were part of a protestant sect.  I don't know which one.  It may have been non-denominational.  One thing I do remember was noticing the frequency at which I kept thinking, "That doesn't sound right."  Were there some truths?  Yes, of course.  But it was really bothersome that I kept thinking things didn't make sense.  And when I'd ask questions they just tried to shut me up and tell me I was too young to understand.

I was adopted by a Mormon family in America.  One thing I noticed was the frequency at which I kept thinking,"Yeah, that makes sense."  Still, there were some things that didn't make sense.  And I had a lot of questions.  The difference then was not that they thought I was too young to understand.  It was that they didn't even understand the questions.  That bothered me.  But I had to learn to phrase questions the right way, and to ask the right people.  When I did, I got more answers.  But there were many that could not be answered.  But instead of being told I was too young, they'd say that some things like this are to be revealed by the Spirit to us individually.

THE DIFFICULTY:

I was born with a gift for math.  Others are not.  So, does it seem fair that each of us is judged the same?  Well, thankfully, we're not judged on our math ability.  But the same disparity exists in the spiritual realm.  Some are born with a "knack" for feeling the Spirit.  Others are not.  What we are all born with is the desire to know.  As we nurture that desire for truth, the spiritual sensitivity will always grow in anyone.  It is when we stop desiring to know the truth, that this growth stops an begins to diminish.  Unlike math or music, or dancing, or football, we all have an equal ability to develop our spiritual sensitivity no matter where we began in life.

Some may take longer to develop it than others.  But the important thing is that we can all develop it.  And we must.  Our eternal destiny depends on it.  Always remain open to the truth.  Always seek the truth. Always live the truth.  Eventually truth will come to you.

@Carborendum Thank you for writing this.  Your perspective really helps me see where I have several holes in my idea of cross examining all religions based on trying to measure the Holy Spirit.  This is a meaningful response that was well thought out and resonates with me: relating my situation to scientific method how my hypotheses could be limited in scope, your own story, developing a "knack" for feeling the Spirit...  Thanks for this.  I'll probably be reading it again.

 

Edited August 8, 2017 by clbent04

[clbent04]

On 8/6/2017 at 11:16 AM, CV75 said:

the Lord will bless the pure in heart that honor His light, and upon hearing His word they will eventually discover the power and witness of the Holy Ghost. People of all (or no) faith traditions can do that without rigorous cross-examination.

Collectively considering some of the responses on this thread, I'm beginning to feel this is true

[clbent04]

On 8/6/2017 at 11:16 AM, CV75 said:

The honoring of God's truth in all its forms is not a purely rational process, “for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings [Greek: “sightings”] which cannot be uttered.” (Romans 8:26). So the approach is to cleave to whatever light and truth we have come our way, or have sought out regardless of how we like the answer.

Why would we not like the answer? Because it might contradict what we thought previously ourselves?

[clbent04]

On 8/5/2017 at 3:31 PM, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, naturally, as a Mormon I believe that *my* Church is objectively the most correct and holds the greatest portion of the Spirit; and it's always tempting to point to a number of personal qualities that may serve to shout down the Spirit's promptings (stubbornness, pride, etc) in a person who believes differently than I do.  We are, as you know, warned in scripture that even the very elect can be deceived.

Thank you for not dropping the stubbornness or pride card on me  I'm very grateful for the positive feedback I've received on this thread on a subject that has been at the forefront of my heart for nearly 10 years

[clbent04]

@Mike @Just_A_Guy @Grunt @person0 @Carborendum

Thanks for your insight and perspective and for taking the time to understand my perspective.  Great feedback.  I've been reading and rereading.  This topic has weighed on my mind for sometime

[clbent04]

I'm trying to remember a story told within the Church that I heard a while back.  If I provide really vague details on the story, could someone help me find it?

I'm not sure if I read it in an Ensign, Church manual or if it was relayed through a talk given in General Conference.  I told you, right?  Off to a very vague start!

What I do remember is it is a Church published story somewhere.  It's a story about someone who lived in a place that did not have any presence of the Church at the time.  No missionaries had ever been to that part of the world and there were no means to receive Church broadcasts and so forth.  The story goes that a man who desperately wanted to know the truth of God's path for him prayed day in and day out doing the best he could with what he had.  This man so desperately wanted to know the truth, that pieces of revelation started to come to him such as the need to have sacrament.  He instituted his version of the sacrament among his family or tribe along with whatever else came to him as an inspiration.  The story continues that the man's faith and desire for truth were so great, that missionaries were inspired to visit his location for the first time.  The missionaries were amazed at the man's readily acceptance of the gospel and how he had progressed so far on his own

That's about the sum of it. Fair warning that I may have mixed up some of the facts   

Edited August 8, 2017 by clbent04

[person0]

3 hours ago, clbent04 said:

What if you grew up in an Islamic household and everyone including yourself were devote followers of the teachings of the Quran?  And say the Holy Spirit bore witness to you of the truthfulness of the Quran maybe because in part the Quran does hold some true teachings.  Would you then say it would be absurd to study any other religion because you already felt the Holy Spirit in your life with your current set of beliefs?  Would you then not feel the need to seek out anything further?  Do you think there aren't any practicing members of Islam out there who aren't equally converted to their faith based on the spiritual experiences they've had?  

I know you haven't been around here very long yet to read me saying it all the time, but my father and his entire side of the family are in fact Muslim.  You could have used any religion as an example; I find it interesting that you chose Islam, if for no other reason than that I doubt you expected someone in the forum would actually have lived through what you are describing.  

From my father I learned that in Islam you are permitted to openly question everything, with one exception:  you may not question God or attempt to make a determination of His nature.  The reason this is important to understand, is because, due to the lack of definition, one would be unable to come to the determination you postulated.  Additionally supporting this, while the Quran references the Holy Spirit, it does not directly define it, nor do Muslims view the Spirit as a testator, as Christians do.  Some Muslims view the Spirit as simply the power of God, others believe it is an alternate title for the Angel Gabriel.  Muslims may have experiences with the Holy Spirit, those experiences may possibly fortify their faith, but they will remain unable to define or truly understand those experiences in a meaningful way.  Conversion away from Islam is rare more because of the nature of the belief system than because of any spiritual or even logical conclusion.

Also, as I stated in previous posts, there is no other faith that I know of where you can ask specifically if the religion/church/denomination itself is true as a whole and expect to receive a confirmation that it is.  Since other faiths do not teach this, members of other faiths will not experience this.  While I can't speak for others, it is this experience in particular that leads me to not need to seek out truth that other faiths may have for the purpose of evaluating if that particular faith is true.

Edited August 8, 2017 by person0

[clbent04]

1 hour ago, person0 said:

I know you haven't been around here very long yet to read me saying it all the time, but my father and his entire side of the family are in fact Muslim.  You could have used any religion as an example; I find it interesting that you chose Islam, if for no other reason than that I doubt you expected someone in the forum would actually have lived through what you are describing.  

From my father I learned that in Islam you are permitted to openly question everything, with one exception:  you may not question God or attempt to make a determination of His nature.  The reason this is important to understand, is because, due to the lack of definition, one would be unable to come to the determination you postulated.  Additionally supporting this, while the Quran references the Holy Spirit, it does not directly define it, nor do Muslims view the Spirit as a testator, as Christians do.  Some Muslims view the Spirit as simply the power of God, others believe it is an alternate title for the Angel Gabriel.  Muslims may have experiences with the Holy Spirit, those experiences may possibly fortify their faith, but they will remain unable to define or truly understand those experiences in a meaningful way.  Conversion away from Islam is rare more because of the nature of the belief system than because of any spiritual or even logical conclusion.

Thanks for your perspective, and no, I did not know your background from elsewhere on this forum until now. Very insightful to be hear how Muslims understand the Holy Spirit. 

1 hour ago, person0 said:

Also, as I stated in previous posts, there is no other faith that I know of where you can ask specifically if the religion/church/denomination itself is true as a whole and expect to receive a confirmation that it is.  Since other faiths do not teach this, members of other faiths will not experience this.  While I can't speak for others, it is this experience in particular that leads me to not need to seek out truth that other faiths may have for the purpose of evaluating if that particular faith is true.

I'm not sure if I would agree with this paragraph.  Just because you haven't been taught in a certain faith to use the Holy Spirit as a source of guidance, doesn't mean you can't be guided nonetheless, right?

Out of curiosity, how do Muslims typically pray?  Do Muslims only recite memorized prayers, are they allowed to pray for whatever is on their minds (save questioning God or attempting to determine His nature), do they only pray to give praise, do they ask for things they are in need of...?

Edited August 8, 2017 by clbent04

[Anddenex]

On 8/5/2017 at 3:26 PM, clbent04 said:

One of the greatest claims that the Mormon Church advocates is that the Holy Spirit has the greatest prominence within the Mormon Church in comparison to other religions.  The Holy Spirit can still be felt and experienced in other religions, but to a lesser extent.  This is because the Mormon Church lays claim to representing Christ’s gospel in its pure form, not one that has been corrupted over the years.

In order to truly accept this claim as a member of the Church, consider the following:

How can we identify that the Holy Ghost has a unique and most prominent presence in the Mormon religion if we have never experienced anything else?  And even if you started now to try and compare religions side by side, how would you do so without bias?  Is it not likely that your views will be skewed in favor towards whatever you grew up with?

Thousands of religions exist in the world today and there is no way one person could dedicate the necessary time and effort in this life to each one in order to fairly cross examine all religions.  I think you would need to experience life under the roof of a Baptist family, a Buddhist, Jewish, and Muslim family and so on to be able to honestly assert the prominence of the Holy Spirit in one religion verses another.  Studying a religion’s beliefs on paper may not capture what its members find significant about it.  After all, the greatest reason mankind has been drawn to religion lies with the unseen.

Fairly cross examining all religions in relation to the prominence of the Holy Spirit is a daunting task which I don’t think is possible for anyone to accomplish.

In order for any question to lead to any truth, as given by God, we must first begin with a correct premise. The initial premise of, "One of the greatest claims that the Mormon Church advocates is that the Holy Spirit has the greatest prominence within the Mormon Church in comparison to other religions," (emphasis added) is false. The Church has never claimed such (as has been mentioned). In this case, the moment a person begins their question, search, inquiry upon this premise they will ultimately fail in coming into any solid conclusion.

What has the Church actually said (not a personal interpretation as has been given)?

The second premise one must consider to your question is then, who/what is the Holy Ghost?

The third premise is, how then does the Holy Ghost testify of truth?

The fourth premise, can I know for myself if something is from God or of men, and if so, how can I know it? How does a son or daughter of God distinguish truth from error, when their are multiple sources claiming their truth, and the truths are not complimentary -- they are opposite?

The fifth premise, and one I find to be the most important, does God love all his children, or is He a respecter of persons (select few)?

A person doesn't need to live in anyone's shoes to know if God is speaking and testifying of truth; however, some indeed do search multiple religions to discover truth. Moses did not need to discover if the Gods of the Amorites were truly the Gods of this world, and all worlds created. Moses though we can say was an outlier. Joseph Smith, is also an outlier, pertaining to his First Vision (he saw God the Father, and Jesus Christ the Son). There is no middle ground to this experience. He told the truth. He told a lie. The five given premises will allow any man/woman to discover truth. So determining solely upon one principle taught, that already begins with a false premise, will not lead anyone to discover the validity of the statement.

I have two personal examples of someone who did search through many religions, at least the major religions, and who are now baptized as Latter-day Saints. This however is evidence for Latter-day Saints (particularly myself as one is my father). Have others sought and not found, yes.

On 8/5/2017 at 8:29 PM, clbent04 said:

@person0 I think you're taking my original idea out of context. The Holy Spirit will not testify to them of false teachings.  Therefore, if everything the LDS church teaches is true, the devout and faithful members of the LDS church will be able to experience the Holy Spirit more abundantly over the course of their lives than those of other faiths

The Holy Spirit will not testify of false teaching is true. He is a member of the Godhead, and can not testify of any thing that is false. If so, he would cease to be who he is. On my mission, one thing I learned (most evidently) is that God "loves" all his children and is trying constantly to bring "all" his children toward Him and his gospel.

Will a loving God not answer the humble prayer of a child who is not a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? No, the prayer will be answered according to their faith, because God loves them. Will God answer the humble prayer of a Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, who is trying to seek him? Yes. He isn't a respecter of persons so He will answer their prayer. He will bless their lives. God will bless and discipline his children as he sees fit, LDS or not.

Yes, devout and faithful members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will experience more abundantly the Holy Ghost over the course of their lives. The key word, devout (meaning, obedient and continually seeking God's will). This is a relatively easy principle to sustain. If I begin with correct principles, I will more abundantly obtain and reach my goal. If I begin with false principles, I can go only so far as these false principles can take me. Even in false principles, we can find glimmers of truth which guide, but they can only take us so far if our main principle is false.

The life of members is an inaccurate principle to base your premise because their are varying levels of faith within all religions. There are more faithful Christians to their principles and teachings then LDS people. There are more faithful Mormons who adhere to their beliefs, than Protestants living theirs. There is also this principle, "To whom much is given, much is required..." If one has been given more, and rejects such, their capacity to move forward will be less than those who were not given more but are living the principles they have been given. God will sustain them. God will discipline the first. So the opposite is true for LDS, they also have the possibility to experience less than any other faiths if they do not live up to their covenants. We reap what we sow, and if our principles of sowing are based in true principles we will be able to grow more abundantly then those who aren't. That is a simple fact.

The only way one could truly sustain, prove your premise, is if ALL members lived their religion with all their might, mind, and strength. Then you would have a great comparison to judge by, but as we have unfaithful/faithful Mormons, unfaithful/faithful Christians, etc... the test will be, and is, muddled, because who will you then test, and how will you then test your hypothesis? We will only pick the top leaders? How then would you measure?

There is only one true measure "ask of God" after you have done your part (James 1:5 - lead to the first vision, Moroni 10:3-5 -- leads to conversion, even conversion of all truths that God is willing to make known).

[person0]

10 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Just because you haven't been taught in a certain faith to use the Holy Spirit as a source of guidance, doesn't mean you can't be guided nonetheless, right?

Of course this is the case, however, if the Holy Spirit exists and fulfills the role we both believe He is said to fulfill, only a true religion will teach you how to apply His guidance in a meaningful way.  As I mentioned earlier, this is not taught in Islam.  Additionally, either a religion must make the claim that they are the one true religion, or else, by default they are claiming that there is no one true religion, or that theirs is not the true religion. How could a religion as a whole receive God's stamp of approval as the true faith without openly declaring itself to be the true religion?  I would expect that if there is a true religion, that religion would know that it is true, and would claim that God himself would testify of it.

Side Note: If you were to determine by any mechanism that Protestantism is true, you would then of necessity adopt the belief that there is not one true Church.

Interjection:  The five daily prayers are mostly wrote, however, Muslims may (but are not required or expected to) pray in addition to those prayers any time they would like and offer prayers similar to those of other faiths.  Okay, back to the subject. . .

Islam, Judaism, Catholicism and Mormonism are the most prominently known faith's in the world today which claim, to an extent, that theirs is the one true religion.  Even among these, in my experience, only Mormonism openly claims that Heavenly Father will testify through His Holy Spirit that the religion/Church itself is true.  From the beginning of your post you have discussed the concept of using the Spirit as a measurement of truth.  If you believe that such a measurement may be possible, why are there not multiple faiths out there claiming that people should pray and receive from God that [X] religion is true?  I would postulate that while Catholic members and leaders may be devout and sincerely believing, it is a calculated risk to not claim it.  Any church that makes such a claim, must be prepared for those who will not receive or recognize their answer.  For already largely populated faith's such as Islam and Catholicism, this would result in a mass exodus from the faith because people would say to themselves, "no answer → not true".  If the religion is true, and if the Holy Spirit will testify of truth, said religion should be willing to make this claim.  Because those faith's did not start from their early days to spread their message with this ideology, to implement it now would be detrimental.  The fact that the LDS Church puts itself out there to such a high level of spiritual scrutiny is partially a testament in itself.

The short answer to your question is that, being guided by the Spirit is not the same as receiving a spiritual confirmation that the religion is true.  Members of other faiths may interpret that their spiritual experiences are evidence of the truthfulness of their faith, but I believe it is clear that those experiences are not defining the religion itself as true.  If one is not seeking to know the answer to this specific question as it pertains to their religion/church/denomination, they will not receive or recognize an answer to a question they are not asking.

Edited August 8, 2017 by person0

[Mike]

13 hours ago, clbent04 said:

 ... The story goes that a man who desperately wanted to know the truth of God's path for him prayed day in and day out doing the best he could with what he had.  This man so desperately wanted to know the truth, that pieces of revelation started to come to him such as the need to have sacrament.  He instituted his version of the sacrament among his family or tribe along with whatever else came to him as an inspiration.  The story continues that the man's faith and desire for truth were so great, that missionaries were inspired to visit his location for the first time.  The missionaries were amazed at the man's readily acceptance of the gospel and how he had progressed so far on his own

That's about the sum of it. Fair warning that I may have mixed up some of the facts   

The story sounds familiar to me, and it also sounds like a variation on many others. What do you sense is the take away of the story?

 

[CV75]

17 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Why would we not like the answer? Because it might contradict what we thought previously ourselves?

I think I was typing too fast. It should have read, "So the approach is to cleave to whatever light and truth we have come our way, or have sought out regardless of how we like to get or find the answer." Some people can be predisposed to rational truth-finding processes and others to non-rational processes, but they go hand-in-hand.

[zil]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

predisposed

Predisposed, adjective: "the state of the object one finds when going dumpster diving or used-car shopping."

[Guest]

I've been struggling to analyze the following claim:

Quote

The Holy Spirit has the greatest prominence within the Mormon Church in comparison to other religions.

Many have denied this on the thread.  Yet, I remember a quote saying that Joseph Smith was once asked how we differ from other Christian faiths.   He responded,"The Holy Ghost." I only heard this much, so I don't have the entire context of said quote.  But I tend to believe it is true.  I think some defining is in order.

Quote

The Church and Kingdom of God on Earth "is built upon the foundation of Apostles and Prophets with Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone."

1. The very nature of apostles and prophets are that they receive revelation for us all in matters of doctrine and general direction of the Church.  We receive revelation through the Spirit.  So if we truly believe they are the Lord's direct servants and speak for Him when moved upon by the Spirit, doesn't it seem reasonable to believe that our leaders have a "greater portion of the Spirit" than leaders of other faiths?  Not that they are infallible.  But they do receive revelation like no other.
2. We often talk of the difference between "Power of the Holy Ghost" vs. the "Gift of the Holy Ghost".  What do you really think that is?  "Constant companionship" is certainly a part of it.  Therefore, the "prominence" of His presence among the Latter-Day Saints should by nature be greater than that among the membership of other faiths.  We are told that the Lord is well pleased with this Church "collectively" not individually.  I have spent at least three Sundays in about 100 wards across four countries, and a dozen or so states.  Yes, there are some individuals and wards who need a lot of help.  But as a whole, the people in this Church are second to none in their willingness to sacrifice who they are so they may become Christlike and willing to listen to the Spirit.  
3. Above all, are we not supposed to be recognized as The Covenant People because of "our fruits"?

I have no problem believing that we do have a greater portion of the Spirit in our Church as opposed to any other.

Edited August 9, 2017 by Guest