True Religion Test

[clbent04]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declares that the way to find out which church is the true church of God is through the Holy Spirit.  The true church of God will have a greater presence of the Holy Spirit than any other religion.

One of the greatest claims that the Mormon Church advocates is that the Holy Spirit has the greatest prominence within the Mormon Church in comparison to other religions.  The Holy Spirit can still be felt and experienced in other religions, but to a lesser extent.  This is because the Mormon Church lays claim to representing Christ’s gospel in its pure form, not one that has been corrupted over the years.

In order to truly accept this claim as a member of the Church, consider the following:

How can we identify that the Holy Ghost has a unique and most prominent presence in the Mormon religion if we have never experienced anything else?  And even if you started now to try and compare religions side by side, how would you do so without bias?  Is it not likely that your views will be skewed in favor towards whatever you grew up with?

Thousands of religions exist in the world today and there is no way one person could dedicate the necessary time and effort in this life to each one in order to fairly cross examine all religions.  I think you would need to experience life under the roof of a Baptist family, a Buddhist, Jewish, and Muslim family and so on to be able to honestly assert the prominence of the Holy Spirit in one religion verses another.  Studying a religion’s beliefs on paper may not capture what its members find significant about it.  After all, the greatest reason mankind has been drawn to religion lies with the unseen.

Fairly cross examining all religions in relation to the prominence of the Holy Spirit is a daunting task which I don’t think is possible for anyone to accomplish.

[Mike]

8 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

How can we identify that the Holy Ghost has a unique and most prominent presence in the Mormon religion if we have never experienced anything else?  And even if you started now to try and compare religions side by side, how would you do so without bias?  Is it not likely that your views will be skewed in favor towards whatever you grew up with?

If what you assert is true, then it must also be true that one coming from some other religion would be unable to evaluate the question without bias. Thus, comparing religions is not the right method. 

[Sunday21]

'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declares that the way to find out which church is the true church of God is through the Holy Spirit.'

Yes. The procedure is to read the Book of Mormon and to ask Heavenly Father if the church is true. You need to ask sincerely wishing to know and to act on Heavenly Father's advice. 

http://biblehub.com/kjv/james/1.htm

 

 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Sunday21

[Just_A_Guy]

37 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declares that the way to find out which church is the true church of God is through the Holy Spirit.  The true church of God will have a greater presence of the Holy Spirit than any other religion.

One of the greatest claims that the Mormon Church advocates is that the Holy Spirit has the greatest prominence within the Mormon Church in comparison to other religions.  The Holy Spirit can still be felt and experienced in other religions, but to a lesser extent.  This is because the Mormon Church lays claim to representing Christ’s gospel in its pure form, not one that has been corrupted over the years.

In order to truly accept this claim as a member of the Church, consider the following:

How can we identify that the Holy Ghost has a unique and most prominent presence in the Mormon religion if we have never experienced anything else?  And even if you started now to try and compare religions side by side, how would you do so without bias?  Is it not likely that your views will be skewed in favor towards whatever you grew up with?

Thousands of religions exist in the world today and there is no way one person could dedicate the necessary time and effort in this life to each one in order to fairly cross examine all religions.  I think you would need to experience life under the roof of a Baptist family, a Buddhist, Jewish, and Muslim family and so on to be able to honestly assert the prominence of the Holy Spirit in one religion verses another.  Studying a religion’s beliefs on paper may not capture what its members find significant about it.  After all, the greatest reason mankind has been drawn to religion lies with the unseen.

Fairly cross examining all religions in relation to the prominence of the Holy Spirit is a daunting task which I don’t think is possible for anyone to accomplish.

Accepting arguendo the premise of the question; I think that--at the moment the prospect of converting is upon you--the question isn't necessarily whether Mormonism is better than everything else; the question is whether Mormonism is better than whatever I'm practicing now.  Staying in a faith/philosophical system I know to be inferior just because there may be some unknown philosophy out there that is better than another superior philosophy I know does exist, doesn't really get me anywhere.

But, the question isn't just the quantitative portion of the spirit we enjoy (though that's a *huge* part of it).  We can use the Spirit's confirmation or rejection of doctrinal tenets, to narrow our search.  If I have a spiritual manifestation telling me that the Book of Mormon is what it purports to be, that immediately rules out thousands of religions that hold the Book of Mormon to be a fraud.  And so on.

Find me another Christian church that teaches the Book of Mormon, and the presently-constituted Doctrine and Covenants, and something approaching the form and function of LDS temple worship and soteriology, and that allows for Tom Monson to be a true prophet and Dallin Oaks, Jeff Holland, Todd Christofferson, et. al. to be true apostles--and sure, I'll be happy to go visit to see what degree of Spirit they enjoy!  But the list of churches that meets that set of doctrinal criteria was awfully skinny, last time I checked.

[clbent04]

On 8/5/2017 at 2:37 PM, Mike said:

If what you assert is true, then it must also be true that one coming from some other religion would be unable to evaluate the question without bias. Thus, comparing religions is not the right method. 

@Mike Which leaves us with this predicament. I've seen people of faiths outside the Mormon church just as fervently converted and dedicated to their own teachings.  What is that feeling they feel when they so passionately live their beliefs day in and day out for their entire lives?

Edited August 7, 2017 by clbent04

[Mike]

8 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

@Mike Which leaves us with this predicament. I've seen people of faiths outside the Mormon church just a fervently converted and dedicated to their own teachings.  What is that feeling they feel when they so passionately live their beliefs day in and day out for their entire lives?

Who can say? I cannot. But I think it doesn't matter. Fervency of feeling is not a criterion for truth. I need not belabor the fact with examples, I think. It really boils down to you (and I) having only one choice to make and from there to let the consequence(s) follow. The choice is to find out from God, Himself by asking Him continually until such time as He either deems us ready for His answer, or until such time as (we) become so prepared that He cannot keep the truth obscured from our minds (spirits, hearts, whatever). Until that answer is received then we have one other choice, i.e. whether or not to live by faith. Anything else is essentially tantamount to us kicking against the pricks as it were. 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Mike

[clbent04]

@Just_A_Guy I would respond with the same response I wrote @Mike above

[clbent04]

4 minutes ago, Mike said:

Fervency of feeling is not a criterion for truth.

@Mike When I say "feeling" or "feel", I'm not just saying how much emotion a religion invokes upon you, I'm referring to my original post of feeling the greatest prominence of the Holy Spirit which is always in accord to what is truth

Edited August 5, 2017 by clbent04

[clbent04]

Not to say that all emotion is equivalent to the feeling of the Holy Spirit. But obviously people of other faiths are experiencing the Holy Spirit to some extent, and it seems impossible to discern across the board where the Holy Spirit most abundantly abides

[Mike]

6 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

@Mike When I saying "feeling" or "feel", I'm not just saying how much emotion a religion invokes upon you, I'm referring to my original post of feeling the greatest prominence of the Holy Spirit which is always in accord to what is truth

That qualification is acceptable to me. I think my point remains, though, my friend. The same choices and the same process are the only way you and I can ever know. In the mean time I think we should treat our friends of whatever religion with as much respect as we can muster for the joy they find. It's not for us to tear them away from the good they accomplish based upon how the Holy Spirit moves upon them. Nor is it for us to evaluate them in order to decide our own fates, I believe. You and I each have our own paths to discover. If we follow that pursuit with sincerity rather than with an eye toward defeating others, then I suppose we're doing it correctly. And if we do find the truth, then of course it behooves us to share it in joy and love (as opposed to anything like "I-told-you-so").

 

Edited August 5, 2017 by Mike

[Just_A_Guy]

22 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

@Just_A_Guy I would respond with the same response I wrote @Mike above

Well, naturally, as a Mormon I believe that *my* Church is objectively the most correct and holds the greatest portion of the Spirit; and it's always tempting to point to a number of personal qualities that may serve to shout down the Spirit's promptings (stubbornness, pride, etc) in a person who believes differently than I do.  We are, as you know, warned in scripture that even the very elect can be deceived.

But I also think that "timing" can be an issue; and I'm open to the possibility that God thinks some few folks can better fulfill His purposes outside the Church than in.  (Thomas Kane and Jacob Backenstos being perhaps some historical examples.). 

Ultimately, of course, judgment is God's and not mine; all I (or any Church member) can do is to relay the truth as it has been revealed to me and let others do with it what they will.  And no, I don't think God wants people being baptized as Mormons if they don't truly believe that they are doing so in answer to a call from God's Spirit.  

Edited August 5, 2017 by Just_A_Guy

[Grunt]

1 hour ago, clbent04 said:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints declares that the way to find out which church is the true church of God is through the Holy Spirit.  The true church of God will have a greater presence of the Holy Spirit than any other religion.

One of the greatest claims that the Mormon Church advocates is that the Holy Spirit has the greatest prominence within the Mormon Church in comparison to other religions.  The Holy Spirit can still be felt and experienced in other religions, but to a lesser extent.  This is because the Mormon Church lays claim to representing Christ’s gospel in its pure form, not one that has been corrupted over the years.

In order to truly accept this claim as a member of the Church, consider the following:

How can we identify that the Holy Ghost has a unique and most prominent presence in the Mormon religion if we have never experienced anything else?  And even if you started now to try and compare religions side by side, how would you do so without bias?  Is it not likely that your views will be skewed in favor towards whatever you grew up with?

Thousands of religions exist in the world today and there is no way one person could dedicate the necessary time and effort in this life to each one in order to fairly cross examine all religions.  I think you would need to experience life under the roof of a Baptist family, a Buddhist, Jewish, and Muslim family and so on to be able to honestly assert the prominence of the Holy Spirit in one religion verses another.  Studying a religion’s beliefs on paper may not capture what its members find significant about it.  After all, the greatest reason mankind has been drawn to religion lies with the unseen.

Fairly cross examining all religions in relation to the prominence of the Holy Spirit is a daunting task which I don’t think is possible for anyone to accomplish.

I guess I'm confused.  Isn't it scripture that tells us that, not the church?  If scripture says it, then does it matter whether tests are flawed?  

[clbent04]

19 minutes ago, Grunt said:

I guess I'm confused.  Isn't it scripture that tells us that, not the church?  If scripture says it, then does it matter whether tests are flawed?  

Tells us what?

[Vort]

James 1:27

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

[Grunt]

23 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

Tells us what?

That the church is the true church of God.

[clbent04]

@Grunt Sorry I'm not sure if I follow your point. Could you rephrase what you're trying to say so I could understand better? Thx

[Grunt]

Just now, clbent04 said:

@Grunt Sorry I'm not sure if I follow your point. Could you rephrase what you're trying to say so I could understand better? Thx

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.   If we work it backwards, it seems you're wondering how to establish that LDS has a "higher level" of the Holy Spirit when compared to other religions.  You want to establish that because if it does, then it establishes that LDS is actually Christ's Church.   

I'm saying that if scripture states that LDS is Christ's Church, then there we have it.  We do we need to figure out how to measure "Holy Spirit levels"?

[clbent04]

@Grunt Thanks for clarifying. I see your point, but for someone who has yet to gain a testimony of the truth of the LDS scriptures, I can't fall back on the what the LDS scriptures say to help guide me.  I'm still at the early phase of letting the Holy Spirit guide me to whichever religion God would have me be a part of.  Therefore the Holy Spirit seems to be my best bet to start with for receiving confirmation for a set of given beliefs.  If I was more advanced in my own testimony of the LDS church, and had already accepted the LDS scriptures as gospel canon, I would be able to accept your advice.  But I'm in the early stages of finding God's one and only true religion if any one religion exists.

[Grunt]

24 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

@Grunt Thanks for clarifying. I see your point, but for someone who has yet to gain a testimony of the truth of the LDS scriptures, I can't fall back on the what the LDS scriptures say to help guide me.  I'm still at the early phase of letting the Holy Spirit guide me to whichever religion God would have me be a part of.  Therefore the Holy Spirit seems to be my best bet to start with for receiving confirmation for a set of given beliefs.  If I was more advanced in my own testimony of the LDS church, and had already accepted the LDS scriptures as gospel canon, I would be able to accept your advice.  But I'm in the early stages of finding God's one and only true religion if any one religion exists.

You are in the same boat as I am.  However, the flaw in your proposal is it can't be measured, nor can a single person be filled with the Holy Spirit, then emptied, then filled (wash rinse repeat) until they have felt the Holy Spirit through every religion, and yet ONLY that religion.  It is literally impossible.  Therefore there IS no measure, nor any way to measure, for anyone.  

That's probably why Moroni 10:3-5 tells us to ask God Himself, and He will tell us.  There is quite literally no other way to tell.  Either you know it to be true because He tells you it is, you suspect it to be true even though you haven't been shown it to be, or you just don't accept it.  Read, question, and pray.  That's really all you can do as far as I know.

[clbent04]

25 minutes ago, Grunt said:

You are in the same boat as I am.  However, the flaw in your proposal is it can't be measured, nor can a single person be filled with the Holy Spirit, then emptied, then filled (wash rinse repeat) until they have felt the Holy Spirit through every religion, and yet ONLY that religion.  It is literally impossible.  Therefore there IS no measure, nor any way to measure, for anyone.  

That's probably why Moroni 10:3-5 tells us to ask God Himself, and He will tell us.  There is quite literally no other way to tell.  Either you know it to be true because He tells you it is, you suspect it to be true even though you haven't been shown it to be, or you just don't accept it.  Read, question, and pray.  That's really all you can do as far as I know.

@Grunt You are spot on with your response 100 percent. Completely agree. It is impossible. All we can do is read, question, and pray with whatever we come across or what happens to fall in our lap in this life.

27 minutes ago, Grunt said:

the flaw in your proposal is it can't be measured, nor can a single person be filled with the Holy Spirit, then emptied, then filled (wash rinse repeat) until they have felt the Holy Spirit through every religion, and yet ONLY that religion.  It is literally impossible.  Therefore there IS no measure, nor any way to measure, for anyone.

You explained the exact flaw in my proposal that I have been grappling with for so long.  A predicament that has no sure tell way of being methodically resolved by measurement of the Holy Spirit.  And yet it is the very claim of the LDS Church that they have they greatest prominence of the Holy Spirit that prompts me to this line of questioning

[prisonchaplain]

I may be an outlier among Evangelicals, but there is validity in praying to the Father for a witness of the Holy Spirit that something is true. Many of my brethren might say the Bible is more objective. Yes, but the Spirit and Bible are not competition. They work together. The incidents that strike me are those New Testament confrontations between Jesus and the Teachers of the Law. The crowds, who were not nearly so well educated in scripture as those teachers, knew right away that Jesus repeatedly bested them. They said that he has much wisdom, and teaches with authority--not like the Teachers of the Law. Simple Old Testament knowledge would not have given them insight. It was the Holy Spirit who revealed Christ's authenticity to them.

Of course, the witness of the Spirit may help individuals. However, in interfaith religious debates/comparisons the various groups might all make such claims to spiritual discernment.

Edited August 6, 2017 by prisonchaplain

[person0]

51 minutes ago, Grunt said:

the flaw in your proposal is it can't be measured

@clbent04,  What Grunt said in his post is accurate.

If we can agree that the Holy Spirit will only testify of the truth as is clear even from only using the Bible, then we can determine if the LDS Church is true by one simple measure.  That is first seeking and receiving a witness of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, and then, upon receiving that witness, applying the following:

Quote

Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is His revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the Second Coming of the Messiah. (The Book of Mormon - Introduction)

Once you have the witness that the Book of Mormon is true, you can also ask to receive a confirmation that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth".  Once you have that confirmation, then it is no longer needed to ponder on your initial question.  If the Spirit will remain present as you testify and claim in your mind and heart that the LDS Church is true as it claims to be, then you have your answer.

20 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

And yet it is the very claim of the LDS Church that they have they greatest prominence of the Holy Spirit that prompts me to this line of questioning.

I would actually disagree with this statement on a technical note.  I personally have never known the Church to ever make the claim that we have the greatest prominence of the Holy Spirit.  The claim made by the Church is that the Holy Spirit will testify that it is the Lord's true Church.  While those claims seemingly go hand in hand, they are in fact independent.  Anyone can come to know the Church is true through the prescribed methods, yet that same person may hear a talk on Sunday that is not immediately pertinent to their gospel path, and as a result not have a great burning witness of the Holy Ghost.  This could continue for unknowable lengths of time, depending on the topics studied in classes, in private, etc.  That same person could go to another church and hear a preacher preach a doctrinally accurate sermon on any true principle, such as faith, repentance, tithing, etc, etc, etc, and receive a powerful witness from the Holy Ghost because the things that were taught are both true and applicable to that persons spiritual needs at that time.  Based on your initial inquiry, you would be tempted to presuppose that the other Church held a greater measure of the Holy Spirit, because you felt the spirit during the sermon at that church.  However, your method will have led you to an inaccurate conclusion, because the spirit testified of the words of the sermon, not the truthfulness of the Church itself as a whole.  This is, perhaps, why we do not make the claim in the way you have suggested.  It is way too easy for someone to come to an incorrect conclusion based on such a claim.  Therefore, our claim is much more direct in saying not that we have the greatest prominence of spiritual influence, but that the Holy Spirit will testify of the truthfulness of this Church.

[clbent04]

28 minutes ago, person0 said:

Therefore, our claim is much more direct in saying not that we have the greatest prominence of spiritual influence, but that the Holy Spirit will testify of the truthfulness of this Church.

@person0 I think you're taking my original idea out of context.  I'm not talking about comparing a single sermon from one church against a single talk from another. I'm talking about the life experience and relationship one has to the Holy Spirit when applying all the principles of one's faith, and not only that, but the experience of the environment that kind of structure creates in relation to how one experiences the Holy Spirit.  Surely every devout member across every faith experiences the Holy Spirit to a different degree if only pieces of what they practice and believe in are true.  The Holy Spirit will not testify to them of false teachings.  Therefore, if everything the LDS church teaches is true, the devout and faithful members of the LDS church will be able to experience the Holy Spirit more abundantly over the course of their lives than those of other faiths

Edited August 6, 2017 by clbent04

[person0]

2 hours ago, clbent04 said:

Therefore, if everything the LDS church teaches is true, the devout and faithful members of the LDS church will be able to experience the Holy Spirit more abundantly over the course of their lives than those of other faiths

In theory I can see how what your saying would seem logical, however, at best, it is still immeasurable to man.  This could really only possibly be determined as a collective, and as a result only God Himself could take such measurements.  Not every person needs the guidance and influence of the Holy Spirit to the same degree.  Even Mormon A and Mormon B will have different responsibilities in this life; if they are both perfectly righteous, Mormon B might have more experiences with the Spirit because God's plan for him requires it.  Perhaps Mormon A will maintain a level 2/10 experience constantly and Protestant X will have a 3/10 experience every time he reads the Bible; there is no way to actually survey or observe such data and come up with an actual answer.  Even if you yourself experienced it, there is no guarantee you would actually interpret your experience accurately, especially because you might equate the frequent 0 → 3 as greater than the continuous 2.  Additionally, a person with medical depression, anxiety, mental/emotional handicap, etc, etc, could certainly live their whole life and not recognize the majority of the experiences they have with the Spirit of God.  That's kind of what the famous Footprints poem refers to as well; the person didn't even realize that God was there the whole time.

Quote

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Matt. 7: 18, 20)

These verses are one method Christ pointed to that I believe somewhat alludes to your question.  In context this refers to prophets, so although I would also apply it to the body of the Church and it's membership as a whole, it works even when you apply it directly to Joseph Smith.  This would lead you to read the Book of Mormon and follow what I outlined in my previous post.  Based on some of your other posts, it appears you have already been able to determine that ultimately, what you are seeking in this question is immeasurable.  Therefore, I suggest focusing on finding the answer to the most crucial questions. . . Is the Book of Mormon true?  And, is the Church itself true?  But seeking those answers directly from God through prayer, rather than some alternative procedure that might lead you to the same result.

Quote

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. (James 1:5)

[clbent04]

6 minutes ago, person0 said:

In theory I can see how what your saying would seem logical, however, at best, it is still immeasurable to man.  This could really only possibly be determined as a collective, and as a result only God Himself could take such measurements.  Not every person needs the guidance and influence of the Holy Spirit to the same degree.  Even Mormon A and Mormon B will have different responsibilities in this life; if they are both perfectly righteous, Mormon B might have more experiences with the Spirit because God's plan for him requires it.  Perhaps Mormon A will maintain a level 2/10 experience constantly and Protestant X will have a 3/10 experience every time he reads the Bible; there is no way to actually survey or observe such data and come up with an actual answer.  Even if you yourself experienced it, there is no guarantee you would actually interpret your experience accurately, especially because you might equate the frequent 0 → 3 as greater than the continuous 2.  Additionally, a person with medical depression, anxiety, mental/emotional handicap, etc, etc, could certainly live their whole life and not recognize the majority of the experiences they have with the Spirit of God.  That's kind of what the famous Footprints poem refers to as well; the person didn't even realize that God was there the whole time.

These verses are one method Christ pointed to that I believe somewhat alludes to your question.  In context this refers to prophets, so although I would also apply it to the body of the Church and it's membership as a whole, it works even when you apply it directly to Joseph Smith.  This would lead you to read the Book of Mormon and follow what I outlined in my previous post.  Based on some of your other posts, it appears you have already been able to determine that ultimately, what you are seeking in this question is immeasurable.  Therefore, I suggest focusing on finding the answer to the most crucial questions. . . Is the Book of Mormon true?  And, is the Church itself true?  But seeking those answers directly from God through prayer, rather than some alternative procedure that might lead you to the same result.

@person0 Excellent response. Thanks. Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. And I do need a different approach to evaluating the one and only true religion of God.  I just want to do so in an unbiased and informed approach.