Rob Osborn Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, Suzie said: Again, those in authority seem to have an issue with your opinion about those who support gay marriage not being "true disciples of Christ". It is definitely your opinion so let's not pass it as fact. If that was the case, they wouldn't hold a temple recommend (and leaders allowing this, knowing fully well how the members feels about this particular topic).The Church has not released any statement stating that those who are in support of gay marriage are not living according to the teachings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. So please, let us be careful how we categorize our brothers and sisters who might think differently. We are incapable to read minds and hearts, therefore (in my view) we should refrain from making statements such as who is a true disciple and who isn't. There are enough divisions in the world right now, we don't need more in the Church. Statements like that does more harm than good and to be honest I believe it goes against what the Church has been working on for so long... which is, trying to include ALL members and make them feel welcome even if they have disagreements. As I stated earlier, If the Church and its leaders believe what you just stated, they would have said something by now. But instead, many active LDS members who support gay marriage hold temple recommends. I believe that fact alone speaks by itself. A member who holds a temple recommend means they are in good standing before the LORD. Isn't that enough? 'Nuff said. A person cant be in good standing with the Lord who promote, defend and uphold same sex marriage. Quote
Suzie Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: A person cant be in good standing with the Lord who promote, defend and uphold same sex marriage. So wait..are you saying that Bishops and Stake Presidents who give temple recommends to those who support gay marriage are wrong/not inspired/they don't have the spirit/they cant represent the Lord when they do these interviews? Quote
Rob Osborn Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, Suzie said: So wait..are you saying that Bishops and Stake Presidents who give temple recommends to those who support gay marriage are wrong/not inspired/they don't have the spirit/they cant represent the Lord when they do these interviews? They shouldnt be giving them reccomends if they are supporting same sex marriage. Remember, to "support" means that you defend and uphold that thing believing it is right and promote its cause. This is the pertinant question- "Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?" Last time I checked the teachings and practice of same sex marriage is indeed contrary and in opposition to the teachings accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Quote
Suzie Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 3 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: They shouldnt be giving them reccomends if they are supporting same sex marriage. Okay, thanks for answering. Quote
The Folk Prophet Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 @anatess2, I wanted to publicly apologize for my moody responses today. Mike and zil 2 Quote
Just_A_Guy Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Suzie said: A member who holds a temple recommend means they are in good standing before the LORD. I would respectfully disagree. There's a difference between the temple recommend as an expression of the Church's reserving judgment, versus the temple recommend as an expression of the Church guaranteeing exaltation. The Folk Prophet 1 Quote
Suzie Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said: I would respectfully disagree. There's a difference between the temple recommend as an expression of the Church's reserving judgment, versus the temple recommend as an expression of the Church guaranteeing exaltation. I never claimed someone who holds a temple recommend are guaranteed exaltation. The recommend it's your authorization to enter the Lord's house. No kidding. If the person was truthful, and the leaders gave him/her the recommend knowing this, it means something. We cannot say now the person is not a "true disciple of Christ". I have an issue with that statement. It is divisive. Edited August 17, 2017 by Suzie Quote
Just_A_Guy Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Suzie said: I never claimed someone who holds a temple recommend are guaranteed exaltation. The recommend it's your authorization to enter the Lord's house. No kidding. If the person was truthful, and the leaders gave him/her the recommend knowing this, it means something. We cannot say now the person is not a "true disciple of Christ". I have an issue with that statement. It is divisive. Well, I'd agree that we hoi polloi of the Church have little business weighing in on the status of one's "discipleship" one way or the other. But I can hypothesize any number of scenarios where someone could honestly come by a temple recommend and still not be "in good standing before the Lord". I would hate to see possession of a temple recommend to lead to a false sense of security and/or complacency. Edited August 17, 2017 by Just_A_Guy mordorbund 1 Quote
Suzie Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 9 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said: Well, I'd agree that we hoi polloi of the Church have little business weighing in on the status of one's "discipleship" one way or the other. But I can hypothesize any number of scenarios where someone could honestly come by a temple recommend and still not be "in good standing before the Lord". I would hate to see possession of a temple recommend to lead to a false sense of security and/or complacency. Temple recommends are not a stamp of approval for all things...or should lead to a false sense of security, I agree with that wholeheartedly. That's why the Lord is the only one who can truly judge what is in the heart of each one of us (and our intent)...hence stating that members who have been truthful to their leaders and obtained a temple recommend to enter the house of the Lord are not "true disciples of Christ" (because they support a particular topic) opens up a can of worms. For our orthodox members, we are saying that our Church leaders are not always inspired when conducting these interviews. JohnsonJones and Just_A_Guy 2 Quote
The Folk Prophet Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 40 minutes ago, Suzie said: For our orthodox members, we are saying that our Church leaders are not always inspired when conducting these interviews. That is exactly right. I don't think it's in any way reasonable to presume that every interview for every temple recommend is infallible. If so, how do we end up with the temple videos recorded and posted to anti-Mormon websites? That's one example, of course, but there are certainly plenty. The idea that becoming a bishop or stake president turns one into an omnipotent seer of all things in their flock's lives doesn't quite work. I would dare say there are a very great number of temple recommend holding folk who are not in good standing with the Lord. In fact, I can personally testify that I have been one of those folks in the past. That's not to say I agree with Rob on the support of gay marriage meaning one is in bad standing with the Lord. I would call it misguided, but not necessarily, in every case, straight up apostasy or the like. SilentOne, Midwest LDS and Just_A_Guy 3 Quote
Jojo Bags Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 On 8/15/2017 at 0:25 PM, omegaseamaster75 said: Is it possible to support same sex marriage and hold a current temple recommend? Sure you can. However, you are supporting something in utter opposition to God's plan. Quote
anatess2 Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 11 hours ago, Rob Osborn said: Im big on semantics. If a person supports something it means they uphold it, they defend it as what they believe is right, and it also means that they promote it. That is the very definition of "support". 11 hours ago, Suzie said: Okay, thanks for answering. Well, Suzie, he gave his definition of support. You think the GA's subscribe to that definition when they used "support gay marriage" in a temple recommend interview? Just wanting to keep the conversation clear here. I have no rooster in this arena. Quote
anatess2 Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 10 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said: @anatess2, I wanted to publicly apologize for my moody responses today. We're good. We're friends! That's the cool thing about friends. We grant our friends the freedom to be who they are, up or down, better or worse, richer or poorer, sickness and health... we take crappily-worded posts (like mine) and fling it right back at them and then we calm down when we're ready and we make up. And that's why I love you. The Folk Prophet 1 Quote
Mike Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 Is it acceptable for me to dine with a gay married couple and still hope to be "in good standing" with the Lord given my Temple covenants and all? Quote
omegaseamaster75 Posted August 17, 2017 Author Report Posted August 17, 2017 21 minutes ago, Mike said: Is it acceptable for me to dine with a gay married couple and still hope to be "in good standing" with the Lord given my Temple covenants and all? Not sure that this is a sincere question, but the answer is yes of course. Quote
anatess2 Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 13 minutes ago, Mike said: Is it acceptable for me to dine with a gay married couple and still hope to be "in good standing" with the Lord given my Temple covenants and all? OF COURSE. Here. I'll give you a perfect example with my own mother. My mother is Catholic. For my mother, my marriage to a non-Catholic is not a valid marriage. Therefore, I am considered no better than "shacking up" with my husband. Of course I still hang out at the family gatherings. Of course my mother still visits and stays with me for months at a time. Of course we're still mother and daughter. Of course my husband is treated as any other family member. But no, my wedding photo is not on display on her wall and if somebody asks where my wedding photo is displayed my mother has no problem telling them - she's not on there because she didn't have a Catholic wedding. She gives no bones about where she stands on that issue. She has no problem telling me to my face (she just reminded me of this fact last month when she came to visit) my marriage is not of God and because I am a well-Catechized Catholic it is a grave sin that she hopes I would "wake up and realize". I don't mind. She's Catholic! Of course that's what she believes! Rather, I am grateful for her constant worry over my salvation. If my son comes home to tell me he's getting married to another guy... I would do the exact thing my mother did to me. Sunday21 1 Quote
Mike Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 15 minutes ago, omegaseamaster75 said: Not sure that this is a sincere question, but the answer is yes of course. I must admit that it is not sincere if by sincere you mean am I asking for information. I'm asking the question in order to highlight what seems to me to be the penchant of some of my co-members to interpret support in a way that would indict even our Savior. Quote
Guest MormonGator Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 41 minutes ago, Mike said: Is it acceptable for me to dine with a gay married couple and still hope to be "in good standing" with the Lord given my Temple covenants and all? No, of course not. In fact even if you pass a gay couple on the street holding hands you can be excommunicated unless you point and scream at them. Quote
Guest Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 12 hours ago, Suzie said: Again, those in authority seem to have an issue with your opinion about those who support gay marriage not being "true disciples of Christ". It is definitely your opinion so let's not pass it as fact. I believe he's a Scotsman. Quote
Just_A_Guy Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 5 hours ago, Suzie said: . . . opens up a can of worms. Your wormophobic bigotry is duly noted. Quote
Sunday21 Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 7 hours ago, Carborendum said: I believe he's a Scotsman. Who is Scottish? Mike? Quote
Guest MormonGator Posted August 17, 2017 Report Posted August 17, 2017 14 minutes ago, Sunday21 said: Who is Scottish? Mike? He was trying to be witty by referencing a logical fallacy called the "True Scotsman" fallacy. Quote
Sunday21 Posted August 18, 2017 Report Posted August 18, 2017 1 minute ago, MormonGator said: He was trying to be witty by referencing a logical fallacy called the "True Scotsman" fallacy. Ah! That great English degree of yours! https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/No_True_Scotsman Quote
Sunday21 Posted August 18, 2017 Report Posted August 18, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, MormonGator said: He was trying to be witty by referencing a logical fallacy called the "True Scotsman" fallacy. Dup Edited August 18, 2017 by Sunday21 Quote
Suzie Posted August 18, 2017 Report Posted August 18, 2017 11 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said: Your wormophobic bigotry is duly noted. I almost choked on my polenta when I was reading this. lol Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.