Raising Children - "Because I said so"

[Fether]

 

I generally like PragerU, but this is one video I found difficult to believe.

Essentially it is talking about not giving your children reason why they should do something, but rather you should tell them  "because I said so".

I agree with everything up until about 2:15.

He uses one example @ 2:40 of why explaining something doesn't work, but the explanation is a lie.

but I don't have children... so I don't know.

thoughts?

 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I disagree with him.  My oldest is 22 and my youngest 11, but when they were all still young we would often get compliments on how good their behavior was when we went to restaurants as a family.  My children have never embarrassed me, they make me proud.  

Forgive the bragging moment there, but it's my evidence that my way works too.  I never said "Let's take out our math books. Okay?"  Mostly because I hate that sort of plural speech.  The teacher is not taking out a math book.  And I didn't say okay, because my command was not an option.  BUT I did explain things to my children as often as possible.  It was my goal never to say "because I told you so."   I think you teach children respect by example.  I showed them respect by explaining when possible.  My other evidence is an expert who agrees with me.   Laurence Steinberg, PhD wrote a book called The 10 Basic Principles of Good Parenting.  Excellent book, I highly recommend it.  I plan to give all my children a copy when they start their families.  

[Grunt]

I will answer questions about direction AFTER they've completed it.  Not before.  I will discuss rules and answer any questions they have, providing they are asked with the intent to understand, not whine.

[JohnsonJones]

Well, I was an obedient child...but then again my father's response to any questions of why I had to do something was...because if you don't your rear end will be beaten very shortly...

I didn't want my children to go through that.  My wife's family NEVER spanked their children ever. 

I realized that children are different, we had some that take after my side, and those that took after her side.  One reason it worked on her side is, by default, her brothers and sisters are VERY good children.  It sounds odd, but I've found there are children that are just naturally obedient and good acting.  I have two children that are just like that.  The rest...they are more like me.

Explaining to them the WHY actually works, however.  For example, one son did NOT want to hold hands when he was younger.  He hated it.  I explained to him that the reason we hold hands crossing the street was because he was so small and people could not see him.

To make this point, I then tossed our cat into the street where it promptly got run over.  He was mortified, but understood the concept.....Okay...sick joke...I didn't actually toss the cat into the street.  HOWEVER, I did use that as an example as we had several animals that did get run over. 

This kid caused endless grief for his teachers, even the "good" disciplinarians.  We were called to school when he was in Kindergarten for refusing to log onto his computer and arguing with his teacher over it.  The problem is that it listed his name as the login instead of his nickname that he went by.  We explained it to him, and he logged in and sees it as a funny incident today.

Children are different though, what might have worked with my kids, may not work with others.  Just because it worked with mine, doesn't mean it will work with yours.

[Midwest LDS]

I don't have a child yet, but I have one on the way so I've thought about this a lot. From my limited experience of observing other's children, I feel like it completely depends on the child. I didn't respond well to the "do this because I told you too" style of parenting. I'm willful and stubborn and telling me that would just lead to arguments and headaches for all sides. Punishing me would just lead to me digging my heals in more. But if the same thing was said to me with an explanation I would usually do it no questions asked. On the other hand, one of my younger sisters would never argue and did what she was told with no explanation every time. I think any parenting style can work you just have to know your kids and what they respond too.

My opinion could change once my son or daughter is born and I get some actual experience though☺

[anatess2]

19 hours ago, Fether said:

 

thoughts?

 

Pay attention, folks!  That's Filipino parenting 101!

Let me get you to understand why this works.  When you are obedient to God, do you HAVE TO know why?  Or do you put FAITH in God, FIRST, and follow his instructions?  Isn't it that the more you exercise faith in God, the more you learn WHY it's good for you?

That's EXACTLY the same in parenting.

So, the Filipino way is for babies to learn the absolute authority of the parents.  The more they obey, the more they grow up to understand why it is beneficial.  They develop faith FIRST.  That's why, the "look" works.  You don't have the luxury to have to explain anything in the middle of sacrament meeting.  But if your children learned obedience through faith in the parents, then all they need is the "look" and not the why.  Same thing for telling the child to stop immediately when you see them walking towards danger.  It's placing that absolute trust in the parents' authority.  The kid learns the why later as he exercises obedience.

Now, of course this only works if the parents know what they're doing.  And that's why it is very important in Filipino families to follow Family Tradition.  Family Tradition is part of one's identity.  It is a set of core values and principles that has worked for the family and passed down from one generation to the next generation and to the next generations following.  Then it is of lesser chance that your instructions to your children will bear bad fruit making the child lose his trust in his parents.

As the child grows, so is his understanding.  Older children need to know why.  But, this does not have to come from the parents all the time.  The same faith in the parent's authority will prevail even when the child has not understood why yet.  And, more than likely, the child will figure out why on his own because he has faith that his parents' instructions are good.

Okay, so here's a common thing that has become fodder for Filipino comedians for ages...

Child:  Mommy, I don't want to go to school. 
Filipino mother:  You're going to school.
Child:  Why do I have to go to school?
Filipino Mom:  Because if you don't go to school I will sell you to the man on the corner so he can pour your blood on the bridge.

Yep!  That's the answer you get if you try to wiggle out of obedience with your Why's.  A child will learn why he needs to go to school by going to school.  Rad, huh?

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by anatess2

[Fether]

9 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Pay attention, folks!  That's Filipino parenting 101!

Let me get you to understand why this works.  When you are obedient to God, do you HAVE TO know why?  Or do you put FAITH in God, FIRST, and follow his instructions?  Isn't it that the more you exercise faith in God, the more you learn WHY it's good for you?

That's EXACTLY the same in parenting.

So, the Filipino way is for babies to learn the absolute authority of the parents.  The more they obey, the more they grow up to understand why it is beneficial.  They develop faith FIRST.  That's why, the "look" works.  You don't have the luxury to have to explain anything in the middle of sacrament meeting.  But if your children learned obedience through faith in the parents, then all they need is the "look" and not the why.  Same thing for telling the child to stop immediately when you see them walking towards danger.  It's placing that absolute trust in the parents' authority.  The kid learns the why later as he exercises obedience.

Now, of course this only works if the parents know what they're doing.  And that's why it is very important in Filipino families to follow Family Tradition.  Family Tradition is part of one's identity.  It is a set of core values and principles that has worked for the family and passed down from one generation to the next generation and to the next generations following.  Then it is of lesser chance that your instructions to your children will bear bad fruit making the child lose his trust in his parents.

 

Okay, so here's a common thing that has become fodder for Filipino comedians for ages...

Child:  Mommy, I don't want to go to school. 
Filipino mother:  You're going to school.
Child:  Why do I have to go to school?
Filipino Mom:  Because if you don't go to school I will sell you to the man on the corner so he can pour your blood on the bridge.

Yep!  That's the answer you get if you try to wiggle out of obedience with your Why's.  A child knows why he needs to go to school by going to school.  Rad, huh?

 

That is so interesting!

I disagree and am trying to come up with a rebuttal but can't.

Would a mixture of the both work? I don't want my children to see me purely as an authority figure. Do you still connect well with your parents today (assuming you were raised that way)?

 

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, Fether said:

That is so interesting!

I disagree and am trying to come up with a rebuttal but can't.

Would a mixture of the both work? I don't want my children to see me purely as an authority figure. Do you still connect well with your parents today (assuming you were raised that way)?

 

Re-read the post.  I added to it.  Then let's discuss.

 

And about my parents... everybody in my family (spans several generations up and down) love their parents.   Even the kids with problem parents.  Even the problem kids.  We even love the parents of our parents and their parents...  We're big on parents.  I disobeyed my devout Catholic parents when I became Mormon.  This was - shocking absolute rebellion of nuclear magnitude.  My parents did not speak to me for years until my first child was born.  And even today my mother still reminds me of my grave sin and tells me to "come back to the fold".  I love her for it.  That's what she knows.  That's where she knows salvation lie.  So, I understand completely WHY she is absolutely firm on that regard.  Because... she loves me.  And I absolutely respect her for it.

My kids are growing up breaking from the Catholic tradition of my family.  But, even then, they still learned to value the family traditions that bind our clan together.  It is STILL part of their identity.

Edited August 18, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

6 minutes ago, Fether said:

Would a mixture of the both work? 

I guess it depends. My children knew that I would give them an explanation when I could, but there would be times when I couldn't and they would need to be obedient just the same. 

The key is consistency. I think the biggest mistake most parents make is not being consistent. They get mad, and make threats of this or that punishment, but then they don't follow through on it.  So you don't want to randomly waffle back and forth on this. Whichever way you decide to go, you need to be firm, fair and consistent. That's the key.

[anatess2]

2 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I guess it depends. My children knew that I would give them an explanation when I could, but there would be times when I couldn't and they would need to be obedient just the same.

Your older kids would know.  Your toddlers wouldn't.  That's why you build FAITH in the authority of the parents first.  That faith stays with them even as they grow older and start to require why.  It is not necessary for them to understand why first before they obey.

 

P.S.  I mentioned this is the way God taught obedience.  This is also the same way the military is taught obedience although in a more aggressive  manner.  Do they always have to shout at the top of their lungs, though?  .

Edited August 18, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest MormonGator]

Defining good parenting is like defining the term leadership. Because there are so many different types of good parenting/leadership styles I'm very hesitant to say "This style works the best and everything else is horrible."  

Sometimes a parent has to come down strong and say "My way or the highway." Sometimes a parent needs to be sweet as pie. In reality you need both. 

I love Prager, been listening to him since the early 2000s for the record. 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

5 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Your older kids would know.  Your toddlers wouldn't.  That's why you build FAITH in the authority of the parents first.  That faith stays with them even as they grow older and start to require why.  It is not necessary for them to understand why first before they obey.

Sure I wouldn't give a lengthy explanation to a two year old, but I would give tthem a simplified explanation whrn possible. Naturally you adapt your parenting to the child's age. I insist on a  2 yr old holding my hand when we cross the street but not my 10 yr old. 

I explain things to my children because I want to teach them to think for themselves. That begins with understanding and being curious, asking questions.  I think my way is God's way. We can ask Him questions any time we want. He always answers, though sometimes the answer is no, and the understanding of why doesn't come until later. But we talk a lot at church about the WHY of things. I think whenever possible Heavenly Father wants us to know why.

[anatess2]

47 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Sure I wouldn't give a lengthy explanation to a two year old, but I would give tthem a simplified explanation whrn possible. Naturally you adapt your parenting to the child's age. I insist on a  2 yr old holding my hand when we cross the street but not my 10 yr old. 

I explain things to my children because I want to teach them to think for themselves. That begins with understanding and being curious, asking questions.  I think my way is God's way. We can ask Him questions any time we want. He always answers, though sometimes the answer is no, and the understanding of why doesn't come until later. But we talk a lot at church about the WHY of things. I think whenever possible Heavenly Father wants us to know why.

I think we're saying the same thing.

My point was the Obedience part.  Obedience in my family does not require why.  Obedience is taught without the Why requirement.  Although, of course, we encourage the child to find out why.  In the same manner, obedience to the WoW does not require a Why.  I'm satisfied with God said so because I have faith in him.  Because, to be honest,  I have no idea why I can't have Nestea iced tea or that yummy southern sweet tea.  I love that stuff and I've been drinking that stuff for ages without health consequences.  A lot of people leave the Church because they can't understand Why.

Obedience built on a why makes it so that it is DEPENDENT on the Why.  So much so that if the kid decides the Why is not sufficient, obedience goes out the window.  That's fine for adults.  Not so much children.

Another thing my family does.  You know when a kid gets a shot or they go to the dentist and a lot of parents tell their kids, it doesn't hurt!  And the kid comes out crying.  We don't do that.  We tell the kid - even the 2 year old  who asks, "Does it hurt?"  "Yes."  "I don't want to get a shot!" "I know, but you're going to get the shot anyway."  And the kid gets the shot because he trusts his mother.  And he gets ice-cream as a reward for obedience.

Same with eating vegetables - "Because it's good for you." only goes so far for a 2-year-old.  It will eventually get challenged at... oh, 2 and a half.  "Because mom says so." goes very far.  To adulthood even.  It's not open for challenge.

 

Edited August 18, 2017 by anatess2

[anatess2]

@LiterateParakeet, just to be sure I'm explaining myself correctly.  I believe we are in agreement because I don't believe parents should not teach their children Why.

My point was simply... in Filipino culture, parents teach Obedience.  And in teaching obedience, Why is not necessary.  So, in Filipino culture, babies are taught obedience first.  They grow up learning obedience without having to understand why.  They learn why as the parents teach the Why or as they learn why through their experiences (that comes about through obedience) which is separate from the requirement to Obey.

Did that make sense?

Edited August 18, 2017 by anatess2

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I think you are right that we agree on more than we disagree on. I also dont lie to my kids and tell them the shot won't hurt. I tell them it hurts for a second, but if you don't do it you could get sick for much longer than a second. That is usually enough for them. But if they continueto argue then I will give them the because I said so. I don'tallow disobedience or continued arguments. So yes, I think we are the same page for the most part. 

[prisonchaplain]

Okay, wow. I thought this was another string about how we should have lots of children...because somebody 'said so' in a conference talk 60 years ago.  

[Vort]

My youngest is somewhat precocious, and will aggressively question almost anything we tell him to do -- literally, almost anything, I'm not exaggerating. I have long ago gotten my fill of explaining myself to an 11- (10-, 9-, 8-, etc.) year-old, and I'm pretty quick to give him a "because I said so". My wife is more patient than I am, but even her patience is tried at times. In some cases, "because I said so" is a perfectly adequate and reasonable response. (Btw, I didn't watch the Prager U vid, so I am not commenting on it.)

[prisonchaplain]

I think a lot of the reaction against this video is due to the straight forward, "this is it" presentation. It's a classic debate presentation. No equivocation, no "in my opinion," just here's the truth--prove me wrong, if you can. This goes against the post-modern instruction most 40-somethings and below grew up with--even some of what I grew up with it. So, we react with, "No that's too much, too strong, too without-nuance."

Nothings 100%, and I'm sure my wife and I gave some explanations to our kids. During my two years as an elementary school teacher I discovered I don't like disciplining other people's kids--so I switched to teaching older people. So, though I am no expert, I largely agree with the PragerU video. Most kids will respond well to simple, clear instruction. Most of the time, when they ask why, and the answer is that now is not the time and place for such a discussion--comply with instructions, so we can move on, they'll obey. REALLY, why does the kid need to know the pedagogy behind why s/he must now turn to p. 53 and quit chatting with classmates?

[mordorbund]

Where's @yjacket?

[anatess2]

On 8/18/2017 at 4:26 PM, prisonchaplain said:

I think a lot of the reaction against this video is due to the straight forward, "this is it" presentation. It's a classic debate presentation. No equivocation, no "in my opinion," just here's the truth--prove me wrong, if you can. This goes against the post-modern instruction most 40-somethings and below grew up with--even some of what I grew up with it. So, we react with, "No that's too much, too strong, too without-nuance."

Nothings 100%, and I'm sure my wife and I gave some explanations to our kids. During my two years as an elementary school teacher I discovered I don't like disciplining other people's kids--so I switched to teaching older people. So, though I am no expert, I largely agree with the PragerU video. Most kids will respond well to simple, clear instruction. Most of the time, when they ask why, and the answer is that now is not the time and place for such a discussion--comply with instructions, so we can move on, they'll obey. REALLY, why does the kid need to know the pedagogy behind why s/he must now turn to p. 53 and quit chatting with classmates?

The video is a, "well, duh", to Filipinos, so I think it's a cultural thing too.  I would expect it to be the same for Koreans, am I right?

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

The video is a, "well, duh", to Filipinos, so I think it's a cultural thing too.  I would expect it to be the same for Koreans, am I right?

And with Americans prior to the advent of pop-psychology. I have great respect for the real thing. Therapy can be powerful. BUT, somebody said some study suggested, and the next thing you know we're looking up to our child-friends and asking permission to direct them towards bed, even though it's an hour past sleep time. 

[Mike]

I suppose that as each of us remarks on the video and on our respective world-views we resemble the blind men describing the elephant based upon their isolated interactions with it. The video narrator said, "...the best research tells us that obedient children are happy children" but looking back, my personal experience leads me to believe that some qualifiers are in order--qualifiers such as obedience to truth vs obedience to arbitrary demands that had little connection to truth but instead merely to the convenience of the persons making the demands. I have been obedient at times to arbitrary demands and at other times to truth--and I don't feel like I was ever happy in my obedience to the former. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Mike

[Guest]

2 hours ago, anatess2 said:

The video is a, "well, duh", to Filipinos, so I think it's a cultural thing too.  I would expect it to be the same for Koreans, am I right?

Perhaps.  Koreans are fairly abusive (by American standards) in their parenting.  It is a harsh harsh society.  I do believe there have been changes since I was a kid.  It has gotten more "gentled" -- meaning they no longer channel .

But it was news to this Korean.  Yes, now that I've heard him say it, it certainly rang true.  But it is not what I had learned.  I was told to do "let's" and "get down on their level."  I see when those may be wrong (as he pointed out).  But I believe those have a place.  I just applied it to all situations -- which was incorrect.

1. I believe that when you're trying to comfort a child, you need to get down to their level.  But he's right.  When you're giving instruction, you need to take advantage of your height, size, and authority that God has given you.  You need to use that to show them what is right and wrong and what is expected of them.
2. When you're actually doing something "with" them because it is a together type activity, then "let's" is fine.  I believe when you're teaching a toddler or slightly older, you need to say "let's" a lot.  I believe very young children are still a part of their parents.  If you leave them to do things on their own, they're lost.  They need to do things "with"  As they get a bit older, they have some independence.  At that point, you need to be firm and give expectations that they should internalize and think about how to do things based on your expectations and what you've already taught them.

I look back on many things I've done as a parent.  And the most effective things, the ones where I got the least argument was when I simply said,"We're going to do this from now on." without giving the reason -- not really.  

• When we finally cut through all the excuses and we determined that we were going to have family prayer in the morning, I simply said,"We're going to do this from now on."
• My most argumentative son (Bubba) asked,"Why?  We've never done that before."
• I said,"We really should have been doing it all along.  We were wrong to let it go.  We're going to do it now."  He didn't give any further argument.

Edited August 21, 2017 by Guest