Obedience=righteousness?

[MrShorty]

Reading the BoM the other night and read 1 Ne 17:22

Quote

22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people;

The thing I notice is the Lamen and Lemuel were focused on the obedience aspects of Jewish life, and equated that to righteousness.

I am reminded of Abinadi's words in Mosiah 13 when he asks King Noah's priests if salvation comes by the law of Moses.

Thoughts or reactions?

[zil]

My first thought is to question the validity of Laman and Lemuel's assertion, to question their ability to know to what the people should be obedient and what that looked like.  The rote, external performance of rituals by the Jews of the time does not necessarily mean they were obedient to God, it only means they were making an outward show of being obedient in ritualistic ways.  We know through Lehi and Nephi that the Jews were not obedient to God.

Willing obedience may well be the definition of righteousness, but that doesn't mean obedience brings about salvation.  See Article of Faith 3, however - though salvation is a gift, it is a gift given to those who have proven through obedience that they are willing to receive it.  Righteous is not the same as saved or exalted, but might make one willing to receive salvation or exaltation.

Dictionary definition of "righteous": "morally right or justifiable; virtuous".  Does that not sound like doing what is right?  Is not "obedience" the same as "doing what is right"?

My second thought led to this list, which is just a starting point and subset of this topical guide entry.  I've mixed and jumbled them up and my headache is now getting worse, so I'm thinking I should just give up and go to bed.  But these are my initial thoughts.

Hebrews 5:8, John 8:29, Romans 5:19

Isaiah 1:19

Matthew 7:21, 24

Deuteronomy 8:3, Matthew 4:4, D&C 84:44

1 Samuel 15:22

D&C 64:34, 93:1, 105:6

D&C 130:21, 138:4

Abraham 3:25

3rd article of faith

[The Folk Prophet]

52 minutes ago, MrShorty said:

The thing I notice is the Lamen and Lemuel were focused on the obedience aspects of Jewish life, and equated that to righteousness.

Laman and Lemuel were lying.

Edited November 10, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[JohnsonJones]

Obedient to what?

We have heard that obedience is better than sacrifice, but when we speak of obedience, to what are we referring to?  The Laws that are set up by men?  Or is it the law as set up by the Lord?

In reading just the Book of Nephi, we may ponder what exactly obedience is?  When we incorporate what we know of about Jerusalem at the time, we know that the people were NOT being obedient to the Lord.  They had changed some of the laws and customs, and many other things, jailed the prophets, and various wickedness throughout the land. 

AKA...in that aspect, we could probably say, as TFP stated above me, that Laman and Lemuel were lying in that regard...and perhaps were so far down the path themselves that they could not tell the difference.

We can see a parallel in our time, where adherence to the Law of Chastity is mocked constantly and broken as a normal thing (and in some areas it is basically expected that people will break it), language and coveting abounds, and selfishness destroys marriages, households, and many other things.  Where those, (whcih could also be attributed to selfishness) want to destroy the holiness of marriage in making a mockery of it by implementing the very sins that would create a desolate world if everyone practiced it, and yet insist that it be recognized as equal or better than the holy institutions created by the Lord.  Yet, if asked, people would claim the same thing, that they are righteous, far more than those of previous generations, and if anything, those today are the most righteous of any generation ever in the Americas or Europe.

It is very similar in that aspect, and we see it again before the coming of the Lord in the Book of Mormon in Nephi's time.

It's a repeating pattern that we can apply to our lives as well.

However, yes, Obedience IS righteousness, but it is obedience to the Lord and his laws, not that of men or their constructions.

Edited November 10, 2017 by JohnsonJones

[Vort]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Laman and Lemuel were lying.

I agree. Laman and Lemuel were focused on justifying themselves in whatever they wanted to do. They were perfectly willing to murder their brother and even their own father if they thought it would lead to their desired end; they were talked out of murder only by excessive pleading, seeing that they were about to be destroyed, or at one point by an angelic appearance stopping them from harming their brother. They were not spectacularly evil a la Amalickiah, more like run-of-the-mill wicked, seeking after their own pleasure and desires for power, willing to perform whatever acts of worship were expected of them so long as it didn't cramp their style excessively. They were the very archetype of the hypocrites Jesus condemned during his life.

[The Folk Prophet]

Here's the thing about obedience: you can't get away from it in the gospel. It seems like some want to separate it out, as if it's some kind of lower law, the higher law being -- typically stated as love. But that just plainly doesn't work because the higher law is a LAW. The commandment to love God with all our heart, mind and strength is a commandment and obedience to that law/commandment is still requisite. Sure, I understand the concept behind why some want to downplay obedience -- it's about motivation. Do you do things because you're mindlessly obeying, scared of punishment, hoping for reward, or simply because it is your character? But as we are commanded to make our character as God's, getting to a place where our motivation is right is still a matter of obedience, and no one gets there without making a conscious choice to put off the natural man, humble themselves, and obey God, no matter what the starting motivation. There is no disobedience that equates to righteousness. There is no filled with love and therefore obedience may be disregarded. Moreover obedience is the criteria the Lord set as our probationary model here on earth. "And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;" (Abr 3:25). It is not possible to be obedient and unrighteous. It is not possible to be disobedient and righteous. Righteousness is doing as the Lord asks us to do.

"He's obedient to the gospel but he's not Christlike", or "She may be obedient but she doesn't care about her fellow man," or (as @Vort suggested) "Laman and Lemuel may be obedient but they sure complain alot and tried to murder their brother several times." None of these ideas are accurate. Not being Christlike is disobedient. We've been commanded to be Christlike. Not caring about our fellow man is not obedient. We've been commanded to love our neighbor. Complaining is not obedient. We've been commanded not to murmur. Not to mention murder.

Every so often this obedient-but-not-righteous idea will arise concerning the scribes and Pharisees, somehow forgetting, missing, or ignoring that Jesus explicitly said they were "laying aside the commandments of God." and fully rejecting them. (Mark 7:8-9).

As to whether salvation comes by obedience? Well, just look at Abinadi's explaination:

"And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law [...]." (clipped out "of Moses" by way of modern day application).

@zil addressed this above as well. Christ saves. But the conditions upon which he saves are obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

I tend to view it thus:

Faith is the first principle of the gospel by way of order. Without faith the rest doesn't follow. (Though it should be pointed out that we have been commanded to have faith...so...obedience).

Repentance is the primary principle of the gospel...or, in other words, the matter of obedience with which we must predominantly be engaged .

Love is the greatest commandment or principle and should be the reason/motivation why we obey, what we repent of failing to do, and the foundation of our faith.

But obedience is the core principle of the gospel. Everything else is encompassed therein.

Edited November 10, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[mordorbund]

2 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

As to whether salvation come by obedience? Well, just look at Abinadi's explaination:

"And moreover, I say unto you, that salvation doth not come by the law alone; and were it not for the atonement, which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law [...]." (clipped out "of Moses" with by way of modern day application).

@zil addressed this above as well. Christ saves. But the conditions upon which he saves are obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

 

For that matter, Abinidi even says

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33 But now Abinadi said unto them: I know if ye keep the commandments of God ye shall be saved; 

This is @Carborendum's rope analogy all over again. A frustrated prophet climbs down into the pit of a muckraker.

Muckraker: What are you doing here?
Prophet: I'm here to tell you that it's high time you changed what you're doing. It isn't productive. It doesn't get anyone out of the pit. Tell me something, what are you telling your fellow muckrakers?
Muckraker: We tell them that if they want to get out of this dark pit then they need to grab on to that rope over there and hold firmly.
Prophet: Huh, you say you teach that, but I haven't seen anyone actually grab that rope. Come to think of it, you've never actually grabbed that rope. All I'm seeing is mud slinging and sermons on how great it is in this dark pit. If people were actually grabbing that rope, I would never even have to come down here. Tell me something, can you actually get out of this pit by grabbing that rope and holding firmly?
Muckraker: Of course.
Prophet: <sigh> Okay, fair enough. If you grab on to the rope and hold firmly you will make it out. But I think you might be missing something here since no one is grabbing it yet. If you grabbed it, you would get it, but you haven't. There's a Messiah at the other end of the rope. He threw it down for you to grab. He will pull it by the power of His grace. So once you grab it, hold on. Do this, and teach others to do this, and your feet will be clean and beautiful.
Muckraker: Or you can die....

 

Quote

I tend to view it thus:

Faith is the first principle of the gospel by way of order. Without faith the rest doesn't follow. (Though it should be pointed out that we have been commanded to have faith...so...obedience).

Repentance is the primary principle of the gospel...or, in other words, the matter of obedience with which we must predominantly be engaged .

Love is the greatest commandment or principle and should be the reason/motivation why we obey, what we repent of failing to do, and the foundation of our faith.

But obedience is the core principle of the gospel. Everything else is encompassed therein.

 

Careful, you're starting to sounds like Elder McConkie

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Obedience is the first law of heaven, the cornerstone upon which all righteousness and progression rest. ("Mormon Doctrine", Obedience).

(This quote may not actually exist, since I've been informed over and over again that all references to Mormon Doctrine were removed from the Gospel Principles manual)

[The Folk Prophet]

7 minutes ago, mordorbund said:

(This quote may not actually exist, since I've been informed over and over again that all references to Mormon Doctrine were removed from the Gospel Principles manual)

But, apparently, not from the Gospel Doctrines Manual.

Edited November 10, 2017 by The Folk Prophet

[Anddenex]

1) Moral agency (enticed by the one or the other) + obedience = righteousness

2) Moral agency (enticed by the one or the other) + disobedience (in our sin) = wickedness

3) Moral agency (enticed by the one or the other) + disobedience + repentance (saving from our sin) = righteousness