Agency and Mortality

[Traveler]

Sometimes I ponder and in wonder consider our mortal probation.   Perhaps the question asked the most about our mortal probation is – If we will make it to the Celestial Kingdom?  Will we qualify to live with our Father in Heaven?   Along with these questions the classic questions still remain somewhat unanswered.  These are the questions of destiny – free will verses determinism.  How much of our mortal experience is determined, how much can man change and of what can be changed and what will remain unchanged.

Before perusing the usual opinions, ideas, arguments and understanding of doctrine – I thought to take a different approach with an idea that pre-considers mortality.  Our LDS revelations teach us that before we were born into mortality – we lived with our Father in Heaven.  It is this principle I want to introduce into the discussion about our mortal experience.  The idea is that we have already met the qualifications to live and exist in the presents of G-d.  We already have achieved the right of citizenship in the Kingdom of Heaven.  I want to put forth the idea that making it to heaven is not an achievement of mortality.  

What we want to accomplish is, in essence - not ruining, wasting or disregarding what we already are and have achieved before we were born.  The destiny, the path, the way and our agency is very similar to the prodigal son – to come to our senses, awake and return.  I submit that it does not matter as much as it may seem that we have squandered the treasure of our inheritance.  It does not matter what we have done.  The only thing that matters is that we come to our senses and return.

 

The Traveler

[Jane_Doe]

2 minutes ago, Traveler said:

 It is this principle I want to introduce into the discussion about our mortal experience.  The idea is that we have already met the qualifications to live and exist in the presents of G-d.  We already have achieved the right of citizenship in the Kingdom of Heaven.  I want to put forth the idea that making it to heaven is not an achievement of mortality.  

I would point out that merely hanging out with Heavenly Father isn't the point of the Plan of Salvation.  If just hanging out was the point, we could have skipped the whole Plan and just kept the status quo.  Instead, God had the Plan so that we can become more than what we were then.  Rather than just hanging out then & not really understanding/appreciating/feeling things, He wanted us to be able to *live* *with* Him-- to walk truly along side Him, fulling understanding and sharing the Love He feels.  Those things did not happen before out mortal birth.  

[Anddenex]

If we begin with the given premise, "We all were already met the requirement to be in the presence of God," here are a few of my thoughts?

1) Satan and those that followed him would have already met this requirement also

2) Satan though was cast out of God's presence for rebellion (loosing his first estate)

3) Without our "second estate" we can not return to God's full companionship.

4) Those who kept their first estate, those who remained in the presence of God, and were honored with a "second estate" will have the opportunity to become like God (fullness of glory)

5) A fullness of glory is achieve through acts of obedience that "return" us back to God

I would say then, that our second estate is both, an opportunity to achieve a "fullness of Glory" by means of repentance which is "returning" back to God. I would venture that it is both an achievement of "becoming" by the process of "returning."

 

[The Folk Prophet]

Sounds like saying: You already earned an A in this class just for qualifying to sign up. Now you just have to not ruin that by doing all your homework and passing all your exams.

[Traveler]

One may ask the question - How are children that are not accountable - worthy to be saved and inherit the presents of G-d?

 

The Traveler

Edited March 13, 2018 by Traveler

[Anddenex]

19 minutes ago, Traveler said:

One may ask the question - How are children that are not accountable - worthy to be saved and inherit the presents of G-d?

 

The Traveler

They are alive in Christ, through his atonement, as they are incapable of committing sin (they do not experience the second death).

[Traveler]

10 minutes ago, Anddenex said:

They are alive in Christ, through his atonement, as they are incapable of committing sin (they do not experience the second death).

Are not all of us that come to earth - until we reached the age of accountability?

 

The Traveler

Edited March 13, 2018 by Traveler

[Anddenex]

1 minute ago, Traveler said:

Are not all of us that come to earth - until we reached the age of accountability?

 

The Traveler

Yes, until the age of accountability.

[Guest]

We were worthy...  What does that mean?

I'd submit that there are three levels of worthiness;

Quote

 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

Moses 6:60

1) Keep the commandments.
2) Become justified by receiving the Holy Ghost
3) Become sanctified by being washed clean in the blood of the Lamb of God.

Our worthiness was only part 1a.  We're here to complete part 1b as well as accomplish 2 & 3.

We kept the commandments in Heaven when we were in God's presence.  This proved we had intelligence (gospel meaning).  We are now here to see if we can keep the commandments when we are not in his physical presence and are not always aware of him.  

And WHEN we fail 1b...

We repent and seek forgiveness through the Atonement of Christ.  We are justified in the Atonement when we receive the Holy Ghost, again and again and again.  Each time we fall, we repent.

Then as we perfect this process, we are sanctified by being washed clean in the blood of the Lamb.  I have interpreted this as receiving the Second Comforter whether in this life or the next.

[The Folk Prophet]

14 hours ago, Traveler said:

the presents of G-d?

[Rob Osborn]

22 hours ago, Traveler said:

Sometimes I ponder and in wonder consider our mortal probation.   Perhaps the question asked the most about our mortal probation is – If we will make it to the Celestial Kingdom?  Will we qualify to live with our Father in Heaven?   Along with these questions the classic questions still remain somewhat unanswered.  These are the questions of destiny – free will verses determinism.  How much of our mortal experience is determined, how much can man change and of what can be changed and what will remain unchanged.

Before perusing the usual opinions, ideas, arguments and understanding of doctrine – I thought to take a different approach with an idea that pre-considers mortality.  Our LDS revelations teach us that before we were born into mortality – we lived with our Father in Heaven.  It is this principle I want to introduce into the discussion about our mortal experience.  The idea is that we have already met the qualifications to live and exist in the presents of G-d.  We already have achieved the right of citizenship in the Kingdom of Heaven.  I want to put forth the idea that making it to heaven is not an achievement of mortality.  

What we want to accomplish is, in essence - not ruining, wasting or disregarding what we already are and have achieved before we were born.  The destiny, the path, the way and our agency is very similar to the prodigal son – to come to our senses, awake and return.  I submit that it does not matter as much as it may seem that we have squandered the treasure of our inheritance.  It does not matter what we have done.  The only thing that matters is that we come to our senses and return.

 

The Traveler

Well, we definitely kept our first estate and so were granted this our second estate (which means placement within; good standing) so yes, we are already part of the kingdom, our names were already written in the Book of life before we even came here. However, our names can be blotted out and we can, just like Satan and his followers, lose that good standing(estate) and become a son of perdition.

As for what is predetermined, that only accounts to the things God will make sure happen- events such as the second coming, judgement, etc. The rest is up to us. Our eternal destiny is not set, we are free to choose.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Well, we definitely kept our first estate and so were granted this our second estate (which means placement within; good standing) so yes, we are already part of the kingdom, our names were already written in the Book of life before we even came here. However, our names can be blotted out and we can, just like Satan and his followers, lose that good standing(estate) and become a son of perdition.

As for what is predetermined, that only accounts to the things God will make sure happen- events such as the second coming, judgement, etc. The rest is up to us. Our eternal destiny is not set, we are free to choose.

 

It is interesting how we use words and the full extent of what we may mean.  To clarify, with the understanding I am attempting – we do not lose our good standing to become a son of perdition.  This carries the possibility and probability that it happened on accident that was not intended.  I am completely sure that is not the case.  That we must deliberately plan and execute steps necessary to become a son of perdition.  Becoming a son of perdition is not a woopise – the default, unless something changes, is salvation.

I also want to put forth the idea – that regardless of how great or wonderful one may think of themselves – the reality is that no one deserves an eternal destiny that is anything better than anyone else.

As near as I have been able to determine the #1 greatest accomplishment we can achieve in this life is to gain a physical body.  That is it – everything else that we all argue about as being important – really does not have to take place nor does it take place to completion in mortality.  The only other possibility is marriage – but that is not an individual accomplishment.  Even the ancient prophet Alma indicated that of necessity there is a time between death and resurrection complete our probation.

I am not saying that we cannot mess up in this life.  What I am saying is – regardless of what you think you have messed up or anyone else may say you have messed up.  Like the prodigal son you can come to your senses and return home.  Just wake up and remember you are a beloved child of G-d and all of heaven will rejoice – regardless of what you think you have lost and wasted – you will be welcome when you return home.  So the two great accomplishments of mortality is #1 gain a body and #2 wake up, come to your senses and return to a place and condition that is your rightful home that is a you already deserve to be.

 

The Traveler

Edited March 14, 2018 by Traveler

[wenglund]

On 3/13/2018 at 9:58 AM, Traveler said:

Sometimes I ponder and in wonder consider our mortal probation.   Perhaps the question asked the most about our mortal probation is – If we will make it to the Celestial Kingdom?  Will we qualify to live with our Father in Heaven?   Along with these questions the classic questions still remain somewhat unanswered.  These are the questions of destiny – free will verses determinism.  How much of our mortal experience is determined, how much can man change and of what can be changed and what will remain unchanged.

Before perusing the usual opinions, ideas, arguments and understanding of doctrine – I thought to take a different approach with an idea that pre-considers mortality.  Our LDS revelations teach us that before we were born into mortality – we lived with our Father in Heaven.  It is this principle I want to introduce into the discussion about our mortal experience.  The idea is that we have already met the qualifications to live and exist in the presents of G-d.  We already have achieved the right of citizenship in the Kingdom of Heaven.  I want to put forth the idea that making it to heaven is not an achievement of mortality.  

What we want to accomplish is, in essence - not ruining, wasting or disregarding what we already are and have achieved before we were born.  The destiny, the path, the way and our agency is very similar to the prodigal son – to come to our senses, awake and return.  I submit that it does not matter as much as it may seem that we have squandered the treasure of our inheritance.  It does not matter what we have done.  The only thing that matters is that we come to our senses and return.

 

The Traveler

Good point.

The only thing I would add, and I believe it is critical, would be the role of the Savior in enabling our return home.

I enjoyed this related talk by Elder Uchtdorf during last October's General Conference: "A Yearning for Home."

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

It is interesting how we use words and the full extent of what we may mean.  To clarify, with the understanding I am attempting – we do not lose our good standing to become a son of perdition.  This carries the possibility and probability that it happened on accident that was not intended.  I am completely sure that is not the case.  That we must deliberately plan and execute steps necessary to become a son of perdition.  Becoming a son of perdition is not a woopise – the default, unless something changes, is salvation.

I also want to put forth the idea – that regardless of how great or wonderful one may think of themselves – the reality is that no one deserves an eternal destiny that is anything better than anyone else.

As near as I have been able to determine the #1 greatest accomplishment we can achieve in this life is to gain a physical body.  That is it – everything else that we all argue about as being important – really does not have to take place nor does it take place to completion in mortality.  The only other possibility is marriage – but that is not an individual accomplishment.  Even the ancient prophet Alma indicated that of necessity there is a time between death and resurrection complete our probation.

I am not saying that we cannot mess up in this life.  What I am saying is – regardless of what you think you have messed up or anyone else may say you have messed up.  Like the prodigal son you can come to your senses and return home.  Just wake up and remember you are a beloved child of G-d and all of heaven will rejoice – regardless of what you think you have lost and wasted – you will be welcome when you return home.  So the two great accomplishments of mortality is #1 gain a body and #2 wake up, come to your senses and return to a place and condition that is your rightful home that is a you already deserve to be.

 

The Traveler

I think we are kinda saying tge same thing.

[wenglund]

On 3/13/2018 at 10:04 AM, Jane_Doe said:

I would point out that merely hanging out with Heavenly Father isn't the point of the Plan of Salvation.  If just hanging out was the point, we could have skipped the whole Plan and just kept the status quo.  Instead, God had the Plan so that we can become more than what we were then.  Rather than just hanging out then & not really understanding/appreciating/feeling things, He wanted us to be able to *live* *with* Him-- to walk truly along side Him, fulling understanding and sharing the Love He feels.  Those things did not happen before out mortal birth.  

Excellent observation!

Said another way: if returning home were the only point, then there would have been no reason to leave.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Traveler]

11 hours ago, wenglund said:

Excellent observation!

Said another way: if returning home were the only point, then there would have been no reason to leave.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

 

Sometimes I think word choices are sad and carry cogitations that are misleading.  I believe this is the case with @Jane_Doe in the choice of the words, “hanging out with Heavenly Father”.   The Plan of Salvation has as part of that plan for the royal children of G-d the Father to recover their citizenship and position in the Kingdom of Heaven.  Regardless of what has preceded our current mortal condition – the only objective we have right now is to return home.

The scriptural metaphor we have in scripture of exactly this – is - the parable of the prodigal son.  Our plight is not to recover the treasure we have squandered or lost – our sole purpose is to awake (come to our senses) and return home.  The Plan of Salvation is more than our mortal experience – it reaches back in time to a pre-mortal existence and extends far beyond our mortal experience.  But the only thing necessary for us to keep this mortal estate is to return home.

 

The Traveler

[Vort]

31 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Sometimes I think word choices are sad and carry cogitations that are misleading.

I fully agree with this as written.

[mordorbund]

22 minutes ago, changed said:

I met Andrea's attorney - crazy thing... She killed all 5 of her kids in order to save them, to keep them from sinning.  Do you suppose she was successful in her endeavors?  Did she save her children by killing them?  They were all under 8 years old.

Her children are saved. She did not save them through murder just as Judas did not save us by forcing the crucifixion. And speaking of crazy thing.... she was not motivated by LDS doctrine but by psychotic delusions. Further quotes from the same source that you shared:

Quote

To fulfill "the prophecy," Yates told Ferguson, Satan had to be destroyed.

"She told me in fragments what the prophecy was, but it didn't make sense," Ferguson testified.

Ferguson testified that Yates believed alternately that she was marked by Satan and that she was Satan -- indicating she had changing delusions.

This seems like a lot of shock value to make an ambiguous point. Do you think Andrea's children don't deserve to be saved?

[Vort]

4 minutes ago, changed said:

There are conditions under which even g-d can cease to be g-d, so even g-d is not 100% eternally saved - g-d can fall from grace (Alma 42), and others should be able to rise to grace.  I do not think there is any cut-off points, no eternally secure destinies for anyone.

Someone needs to review basic doctrine and the use of ad absurdum arguments in scripture. When a verse says, "If thus-and-such were to happen, God would cease to be God," that is an emphatic way of saying, "Thus-and-such CANNOT HAPPEN," and not "Well, you know, maybe God will stop being God."

[Traveler]

14 minutes ago, Vort said:

Someone needs to review basic doctrine and the use of ad absurdum arguments in scripture. When a verse says, "If thus-and-such were to happen, God would cease to be God," that is an emphatic way of saying, "Thus-and-such CANNOT HAPPEN," and not "Well, you know, maybe God will stop being God."

@changed

I would add to Vort a statement that if you would do something so uncharacteristic of you - that to do so you would no longer be you.

 

The Traveler

[zil]

Quote

Those who try to qualify God's omniscience fail to understand that He has no need to avoid ennui by learning new things. Because God's love is also perfect, there is, in fact, divine delight in that "one eternal round" which, to us, seems to be all routine and repetition. God derives His great and continuing joy and glory by increasing and advancing His creations, and not from new intellectual experiences.

There is a vast difference, therefore, between an omniscient God and the false notion that God is on some sort of post-doctoral fellowship, still searching for additional key truths and vital data. Were the latter so, God might, at any moment, discover some new truth not previously known to Him that would restructure, diminish, or undercut certain truths previously known by Him. Prophecy would be mere prediction. Planning assumptions pertaining to our redemption would need to be revised. Fortunately for us, however, His plan of salvation is constantly underway -- not constantly under revision.

All These Things Shall Give Thee Experience, Neal A. Maxwell (Chapter 2 "The Omniscience of an Omnipotent and Omniloving God")

Please read Lectures on Faith. 

Edited March 16, 2018 by zil

[mordorbund]

33 minutes ago, changed said:

... 

If salvation is synonymous with progression/knowledge/wisdom, it requires experience/education - all of which take time, effort, work.

There are conditions under which even g-d can cease to be g-d, so even g-d is not 100% eternally saved - g-d can fall from grace (Alma 42), and others should be able to rise to grace.  I do not think there is any cut-off points, no eternally secure destinies for anyone.

 

If this was your intended point, why did you select such an emotionally-charged example to try to drive it home? You know what, it doesn't matter. Let's just move forward.

If knowledge is a prerequisite for sin, then how do children possibly qualify as sinners? Well, perhaps as a technicality, which is why @Anddenex shared the testimony that little children are alive in (and through) Christ. Now how is that fair that they get a "free pass" just because they are exiled from mortality prematurely? How do they have the light and truth necessary to go on to their exaltation? I don't know. It's unrevealed. Joseph Smith was in a similar state with regards to his brother Alvin. He was taught through revelation that Alvin (like little children) was an heir to the celestial kingdom even though he lacked the required experience, knowledge, and wisdom to warrant it. It wasn't until several years later that he was taught about the mechanism of baptisms for the dead that would allow for this. And it wasn't until a much later prophet that the revelation came showing how vicarious ordinances still allowed for agency.

Maybe there is more that dead children need to do to receive celestial glory. Maybe that includes the time, effort, and work you're looking for. Maybe there'll be an additional revelation to show how these children were not given an unfair advantage through early death. But just because revealed explanations haven't come yet doesn't mean the practical testimony is false. My child successfully turns on the lights by flicking a switch without any knowledge of wires running through the wall.

[person0]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

Someone needs to review basic doctrine and the use of ad absurdum arguments in scripture. When a verse says, "If thus-and-such were to happen, God would cease to be God," that is an emphatic way of saying, "Thus-and-such CANNOT HAPPEN," and not "Well, you know, maybe God will stop being God."

I fully agree with this statement, especially in context of the statement to which you were responding.  However, I personally also emphasize a strong belief in the agency of God.  If He truly has agency, he technically has the ability to choose something that would result in him not being God.  The simplest example, He could just quit.  He won't because of who He is, but I don't know of any reason to suggest He does not possess the agency to do so.

My belief is that the only areas where God's agency could potentially considered 'limited' are a) any limits He may impose upon Himself, and b) things that are not possible to be done.

Edited March 16, 2018 by person0

[Anddenex]

3 hours ago, changed said:

""It was the seventh deadly sin. My children weren't righteous. They stumbled because I was evil. The way I was raising them, they could never be saved. They were doomed to perish in the fires of hell." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Yates  

I met Andrea's attorney - crazy thing... She killed all 5 of her kids in order to save them, to keep them from sinning.  Do you suppose she was successful in her endeavors?  Did she save her children by killing them?  They were all under 8 years old.

Noah Jacob,
b. February 26, 1994
(aged 7 at death)
John Samuel,
b. December 15, 1995
(aged 5 at death)
Paul Abraham,
b. September 13, 1997
(aged 3 at death)
Luke David,
b. February 15, 1999
(aged 2 at death)
Mary Deborah,
b. November 30, 2000
(aged 6 months at death)

All children killed June 20, 2001

Honestly, I have no idea how this relates to the doctrine I shared in response to The Traveler's question; however, the questions appear to be pretty clear from doctrine:

First, the misapplication, or looking beyond the mark, has been around a long time. Sadly, the misapplication of scriptures and doctrine has caused heartache for many of God's children, and even sadder children/innocent often become entangled in such awful webs.

Second, The misapplication of doctrine doesn't make the doctrine false or harmful. The doctrine is simply doctrine, a truth we either reject or accept.

Third, no, she wasn't successful because her endeavors began and ended with false premises, much like Satan who often seeks to destroy God's plan but only ends up furthering it. The chhildren were not saved by her hand. The children were saved by the grace, mercy, and love of Jesus Christ. This whole scenario brings up a question I was once asked by an Atheist. If children are saved before the age of eight -- we should just kill all children before the age of eight? I wasn't even sure how to respond to such an absurd suggestion. The gospel of Jesus Christ values agency and life. Sadly, we live in a world, telestial world, where life is not always valued. @mordorbund has an excellent example provided as with Judas.

Fourth, sadly these lives were ended short. Fortunately, doctrine has been revealed pertaining to the state of those who die before the age of accountability. I am always amazed at how perfect this plan really is.

But again, I have no idea how a person would jump from Children are alive in Christ, and thus are saved before the age of accountability to a similar argument an Atheist presented about just killing all children because the doctrine says they will be saved.

[wenglund]

On 3/15/2018 at 1:03 PM, Traveler said:

 

Sometimes I think word choices are sad and carry cogitations that are misleading.  I believe this is the case with @Jane_Doe in the choice of the words, “hanging out with Heavenly Father”.   The Plan of Salvation has as part of that plan for the royal children of G-d the Father to recover their citizenship and position in the Kingdom of Heaven.  Regardless of what has preceded our current mortal condition – the only objective we have right now is to return home.

The scriptural metaphor we have in scripture of exactly this – is - the parable of the prodigal son.  Our plight is not to recover the treasure we have squandered or lost – our sole purpose is to awake (come to our senses) and return home.  The Plan of Salvation is more than our mortal experience – it reaches back in time to a pre-mortal existence and extends far beyond our mortal experience.  But the only thing necessary for us to keep this mortal estate is to return home.

 

The Traveler

I can see how that may be true in terms of salvation, though I am not sure it applies to exaltation, or more particularly  and the end objective of the Plan of PROGRESSION.  

As intimated in my previous post, to me regaining in the after life what one already had in the pre-existence, doesn't strike me as progress.

In the case of the parable of the Prodigal Son, there is the noted difference between the prodigal sons reward (i.e. the fated calf, best robe, and ring) and the faithful son's reward (i.e. all that the Father has).

After all, a single man such as myself and the prodigal son, can return "home," and regain what we had prior to this life.

However, we are encouraged to get married. Indeed, the everlasting covenant of marriage is requisite for the highest degree of "home"--which marriage represents genuine progress.

Then, again, we may be speaking to two different points. You may be speaking to the minimum requirement for keeping this mortal estate, whereas I may be speaking to the greatest potential and divinely desired use of the mortal estate--returning home vs continuing the process towards creating a "home" of our own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-  

Edited March 18, 2018 by wenglund