Relevation & Inspiration...MTC abuse

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

5 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

As for telling later leaders—again, this comes back to what it means for a victim to be “believed”.  The woman here seems not to have expressed any complaints about the way she, personally, was treated or counseled; her anger comes from the fact that the Church would not explain to her the nature of any discipline that may or may not have been imposed upon Mr. Bishop.  

This is a valid point.  I don't know exactly what happened in this case, but if I were raped by a leader, and I told my Bishop that a man raped me, and then the rapist got called to be a Mission President (or some other leadership position) AGAIN.  I would be very upset, not because I need revenge, but because that puts him in a position to hurt more young women.   Again, I don't know if that's what occured in this case.  I read somewhere that he was Mission President 3 times, but I don't know the time line.  

 

[Rob Osborn]

23 minutes ago, Petty3 said:

Satan does put those thoughts in the minds of victims that they are unworthy and filthy and dirty.  And once the thoughts are there, they are hard to remove.  

And I think that @zil has it right and those abused do feel it's their fault (or at least partially their fault.) 

 

I agree. I know Satan works this way. I do know that in general though, our society doesnt teach that.

[Rob Osborn]

25 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

@zil explained it perfectly.  I can't think of anything I could add that would be helpful.  If you disagree, you disagree.

Feminist tactics are always the same- men deny truth and dont understand.

[Crash]

12 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

At the very least, he admitted to fondly the breasts of a Sister missionary.  That is heinous enough, especially given the power differential, and age differences....plenty bad enough for us to have this conversation. 

It seems that many men feel as you do that the accused is always guilty.  Could that be because you are men, and you empathize more with another man?  

And yes, women tend to believe the woman or the victim (if it is a boy or man), because we know what it's like to feel like prey.  

 

If you reread my response to Vort above, you will see that I said some men get it, some try and some don't.  

Is that the same admission that he gave when he just came out of surgery and then later said that he had no recollection of anything that may have happened? If he did indeed do it, then I'm all for jumping on the bandwagon of nailing this guy, but neither you nor I have any knowledge of it whatsoever. And if you had seen my earlier post, you'd also see that given today's current "Me Too" climate, of course it's going to get a lot of traction. But there are massive holes in her story as well. 

Now, your statement "It seems that many men feel as you do that the accused is always guilty. Could that be because you are men, and you emplathize more with another man?" I assume that you meant, "It seems that many men feel as you do that the accused is alway innocent?" This question is completely biased and loaded. My point is that you are assuming that this is a standard among men but not among women. You say that "some men get it, some try and some don't" but then you say "because you are men, and you empathize with another man." You can't have it both ways and you are saying one thing with one hand and another with the other hand. 

I can tell you from personal experience that there are women who are very accomplished abusers and manipulaters or did my whole point about being abused by a woman get negated in order to make a point? 

The truth is, you have no idea if the former MTC president did it or not and neither do I. You can talk about how heinous the thought that such a thing would happen is but to have already passed judgement as if it definitely did happen without due process is dangerous and irresponsible. I haven't passed judgement either way because I have no knowledge whatsoever of the truth. I find it sad that you are so quick to do so because you are using the "I'm a woman" feminist argument.

[The Folk Prophet]

34 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Could that be because you are men, and you empathize more with another man?  

I can't speak for @Crash but for myself, this doesn't make sense. If the guy is guilty then burn him down with all wrath and vengeance. Not wanting to presume someone is guilty before it's proven has nothing to do with empathizing with someone because they're a man. I understand the point...but...my perspective is that most men are scum -- vile servants of Satan. Now wanting to empathize with someone because they were a prominent church leader? That might hold more water on the bias front. But just because they're a man. Doubtful.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, zil said:

We have been raised in a world that says:

...

Now I would also bet that the majority of men are saying: "What planet are you on?  We weren't raised in this world.  Who taught you such nonsense?  How did you come to this conclusion?  That world is long past, if it ever existed."  And yet...

I'm actually surprised.  Not at the first part, but the second.  I know very well what a lot of people say.  I know very well that some women feel like this is what has been drilled into their heads.

I'm surprised that some men are saying that this is nonsense or that this world is long past...

2 hours ago, Rob Osborn said:

Perhaps, in some isolated section of backwoods some of this may be taught, but in the world I live in its quite the opposite. 

Case in point.

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Only because you are a MAN. 

Now, this was uncalled for.  Rob said that because he's Rob.  And just as credible as @zil has proven herself to be, @Rob Osborn has proven that he's not the quintessential Mormon male.  Do you really believe he doesn't get it because he's a man?  Or because he's Rob?

[Fether]

2 hours ago, zil said:

@person0 asked this question too, and without a split second to think about it, I knew the answer (that she did speak out sooner is irrelevant - had she not, I knew why not, yet you two feel the need to ask - you don't understand why).  I would be willing to be that the majority of women wouldn't have to think about it either, and would come up with the same answer.  (It's possible, hopeful even, that the younger the woman, the more likely it is that she'll have to think about it.)

NOTE (cuz ain't no one gonna like what comes next): I am not, herein, trying to blame anyone, find fault with any system, complain about gender roles, stereotypes, or education, or whatever.  I'm just telling you my own answer to that question and that I believe the majority of women would give the same answer - right or wrong.

Here's part of the answer, and it's a part that I expect the majority of women know.

And there, you're answering your own question - and again, known to women.

We have been raised in a world¹ that says:

• You should be ashamed.
• You're damaged / ruined / defiled - you're less than you were.
• You shouldn't have been there.
• You're nothing, he's a big wig, without really solid proof and three witnesses (preferably male), no one will believe you.
• You should have known better.
• You weren't righteous enough to recognize and flee from the danger.
• You were wearing the wrong thing / saying the wrong words / smiling at the wrong time / giving the wrong looks.
• You were gullible and foolish.
• If you'd spent more time in prayer or scripture study, the Lord would have protected you.
• etc.
• All of which adds up to - it's your fault.

No matter how much your brain tells you that's a lot of garbage, when it's subconsciously drilled into your head over a lifetime (even though you're not sure how, or by whom), it can be almost impossible to overcome.

¹Now I would also bet that the majority of men are saying: "What planet are you on?  We weren't raised in this world.  Who taught you such nonsense?  How did you come to this conclusion?  That world is long past, if it ever existed."  And yet...

I really do appreciate your post. My motivation behind asking “why didn’t she come forward sooner” was addressing my comment that God won’t do for man what’s man can do for himself. 

I’m not God so I can’t say what he would or wouldn’t do so i could very much be wrong in this. She had the option to say something the very moment it happened. But didn’t. So the idea of asking “why wouldn’t God inspire someone to know that this terrible thing happened” isn’t really relevant when she could have come out sooner but chose not to. I’m not accusing her of anything, rather accusing the idea of God stepping in when he didn’t need to.

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

This is a valid point.  I don't know exactly what happened in this case, but if I were raped by a leader, and I told my Bishop that a man raped me, and then the rapist got called to be a Mission President (or some other leadership position) AGAIN.  I would be very upset, not because I need revenge, but because that puts him in a position to hurt more young women.   Again, I don't know if that's what occured in this case.  I read somewhere that he was Mission President 3 times, but I don't know the time line.  

 

I agree, it’d be nice to see a comprehensive timeline that put these allegations into context.

Assuming arguendo that the rape narrative is inaccurate but that he did ask her to expose herself to him and she complied—I don’t think it can be overstated, from an LDS perspective, how wrong that is.  But it should probably also be considered in the context of college students who, even at younger ages, find themselves in sexual relationships with professors who wield extraordinary power.  The law lets such men alone; and feminists are eerily quiet about whether such relationships are per se exploitative.  In fact, since Bishop was previously the president of Weber State University before his stint at the MTC, I wonder whether we aren’t going to start hearing a lot more stories like this.

[Crash]

26 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I can't speak for @Crash but for myself, this doesn't make sense. If the guy is guilty then burn him down with all wrath and vengeance. Not wanting to presume someone is guilty before it's proven has nothing to do with empathizing with someone because they're a man. I understand the point...but...my perspective is that most men are scum -- vile servants of Satan. Now wanting to empathize with someone because they were a prominent church leader? That might hold more water on the bias front. But just because they're a man. Doubtful.

See, and I don't believe that most men are scum - vile servants of Satan. The narrative that most women are innocent victims and most men are scum is one that is built up on our society by Satan and they are lies. Are there men who are scum - vile servants of Satan? Of course. Are their women who are innocent victims? Of course. But are there lots and lots of men, certainly not in the minority, who are not scum - vile servants of Satan and there are also many women who are scum - vile servants of Satan? It's sad but yes, there are.

[zil]

1 hour ago, Rob Osborn said:

Clue me in then because in the society I grew up in we were raised with morals, knowing right from wrong, treating women with the highest utmost respect. We were raised to acknowledge that all forms of abuse by anyone, especially men abusing women and children was absolutely deplorable. My neighbors knew this, community knew this, society knew this. So, please clue me in.

I already did.  And I already said this isn't from overt teaching.  Two people grow up hearing the same words, seeing the same things, etc. etc.  One is male, one is female.  The male comes away thinking what you're thinking.  The female comes away thinking what I posted.

[I will interrupt my mostly complete post here to say that @Carborendum has educated me by pointing out that some (perhaps many) men are well aware that women feel like this has been drilled into their heads - and I will add my own reaction that it's interesting he didn't say men feel like it's been drilled into their heads too - which is my point - I think the drilling target is women's heads.]

"raised with morals" " know it's wrong to abuse women¹" blah blah isn't relevant - of course everyone raised in "normal" society knows these things.  The message is tuned for females.  It is subliminal.  They don't know they're being taught this until decades later, and then only if it happens to come up somehow.  Even if they intellectually reject it, they somehow instinctively react with those thoughts when considering the question of "why would a female not report a sexual assault".  They just know, it's in the bones, it's a knee-jerk reaction.

¹Interestingly, it's wrong to abuse men too - don't know why we always have to say one is wrong and never mention the other - though I suspect this is actually part of the subliminal messaging....

And, since you don't seem to get it, I'll say it again - men don't learn this "lesson".  Why?  I can only assume it's because Satan is subtle and patient.  The male and female brains are different, the message is transmitted on a frequency male tuners can't receive.

39 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Feminist tactics are always the same- men deny truth and dont understand.

And we need to clarify this too, apparently: I'm not saying "men deny the truth and don't understand".  I'm saying the bold bit above.  Just because this never made it into your subconscious doesn't mean it didn't make it into some women's.  Just because you don't understand how that can happen, doesn't mean it didn't.  And, frankly, I don't understand why anyone would think there's something wrong with that scenario.  Our brains are different.  This seems like a "duh" kinda thing to me - so women get this message and men don't - that's not a problem per se, just a fact to be understood.  I have no doubt there are messages men get that women don't.  Rather than denying what each other is saying, maybe we ought to recognize the logic of this state and discuss it rationally, trusting that when a person says "this is what's in my brain", that person knows what they're talking about and the rest of us don't.

And since there's a chance someone will think that only liberal women learn this message I will be as blunt as I know how to be: my political and social views would make you look like a flaming liberal in comparison.  (I just tend to keep their extremity to myself - where it belongs.)  And in case someone thinks it's for the ignorant, let's whip out the old IQ scores and start measuring - I'm not afraid of that challenge (though I will also admit that my EQ is probably in the negative numbers).  And in case someone thinks it's regional, I grew up in Utah, Colorado, upstate New York, Oklahoma, and Moscow Russia.  That doesn't seem very regionally limited to me.  And I grew up active and faithful in the Church - along with my whole immediate family and most of the extended family - so unless you want to claim the Church teaches this, that ain't it either.

In short, I'm kinda rejecting the backwoods hillbilly hypothesis.

1 hour ago, Petty3 said:

Satan does put those thoughts in the minds of victims that they are unworthy and filthy and dirty.  And once the thoughts are there, they are hard to remove.  

And I think that @zil has it right and those abused do feel it's their fault (or at least partially their fault.)

And let's be clear on this - I have never been a victim of anything, so it's not just victims into whose heads these thoughts go.  I believe a broad percentage of women are (were?) primed with these subliminal manipulations ahead of time, just in case.  I could be wrong - I would be very happy to be wrong.

(And while we're adding caveats, I have no comment on the case in question - I consider it other people's business and not mine.  My only choice was to comment on the question of why a woman would wait a long time (or eternity, even) before saying anything about a sexual assault.)

[zil]

Just now, zil said:

They don't know they're being taught this until decades later

Because the teaching takes decades.

[Guest MormonGator]

16 minutes ago, zil said:

my political and social views would make you look like a flaming liberal in comparison

Rush Limbaugh is a communist compared to Miss @zil!  

[Rob Osborn]

16 minutes ago, zil said:

And, since you don't seem to get it, I'll say it again - men don't learn this "lesson".  Why?  I can only assume it's because Satan is subtle and patient.  The male and female brains are different, the message is transmitted on a frequency male tuners can't receive.

What "lesson" dont men get? You make it sound like that no matter what men will always be wrong because men dont understand women. Just say it straight forward. Yes, its true that men may not understand the feminist womens liberation movement these days as it seems men are damned if they do and damned if they dont. Modern feminism is really about the entire destruction of man anyway.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, zil said:

and I will add my own reaction that it's interesting he didn't say men feel like it's been drilled into their heads too - which is my point - I think the drilling target is women's heads.]

Men have something else drilled into their heads... or at least I did.

1) I was afraid of dating when I was a teen.  Because of so many speeches given to young men about the law of chastity and how we are to respect women, I was virtually convinced that if I ever went out on a date that I'd end up raping any girl I went out with.  Such was the evil wrought by males in this society.  With each of these speeches came story after story of how men mistreat women.  Yes, that was what I honestly thought.  Some people were beginning to think I was gay because of my aversion to dating.

The message was really to illustrate what to stay away from.  Don't be like this.  But the impression I got was that "I" was going to be like this.  Well, I didn't want to be like that.  So, I just wasn't going to date.  And I didn't for a LONG time after I turned 16.

2) There are two kinds of girls in this world: Those who can be believed and those that can't (when it comes to sexual allegations).  If those who cannot be believed are crying about it then (so goes the narrative) it was their own fault.  Those who can be believed should be coddled and all the men in the village form a posse and string up the blackguard to be beaten and tortured in turn by each man in the posse.

I don't think this is good or right either.  But that is the impression I got growing up.

Years later, I met a girl in school.  We were classmates and we got along.  So, I asked her out on a date.  We didn't get to be romantic.  But we were good friends.

She went on a mission and called me one night.  I was gone, but she left a message on my machine.  No caller ID.  And she didn't leave a number to tell me what it was about.  I was wondering why she'd be calling me when she was on her mission.  What was so important that she'd call me?

A little over a year later, she was back at school.  I was overjoyed to see her.  She greeted me warmly.  We did some stuff together.  She gave LOTS of non-verbal cues to let me know that she'd be interested in a little more romantic relationship.  We tried it for a while.

Truthfully, I began feeling like we were just in a "friend zone."  I just didn't think of her romantically.  And I was going to tell her so.  But she asked for a special conversation.  She told me why she called me that night.  We had quite a long conversation about it.

Honestly, the first question that came up in my mind was... quite stupid.  But I knew what was right and did not voice that question.  She was the victim.  She'd been harmed.  She'd been hurt.  And she needed a friend.  There was no doubt that what she said was true.  I listened as patiently as I could.  She finally asked,"Well?"

"Uhmm.  I don't really know what to say."

"There's nothing you can say."

"That's why it's difficult."

All I could do was hold her in my arms for a long time and let her cry.

After that date was over, I went home to my apartment and prayed to God that 1) She might be healed.  And 2) That I'd never be like that man.

[Rob Osborn]

Gods teachings are much plainer and true- "love one another". Anything more or less of this that taketh away from this commandment cometh from the devil.

[Rob Osborn]

25 minutes ago, zil said:

Because the teaching takes decades.

I admit that the teaching took decades. My mother and father taught me until I left the house how to treat people. Its the school of the Holy Ghost.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, zil said:

 The male and female brains are different, the message is transmitted on a frequency male tuners can't receive.

Then I guess I'm a woman.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

What "lesson" dont men get? You make it sound like that no matter what men will always be wrong because men dont understand women. Just say it straight forward. Yes, its true that men may not understand the feminist womens liberation movement these days as it seems men are damned if they do and damned if they dont. Modern feminism is really about the entire destruction of man anyway.

See @Carborendum's post just below yours to which I'm replying.  It's not about men doing something right or wrong.  Men aren't making a mistake here - neither are women.  I'm going to turn this into words which I'm not sure are 100% correct, but which I think will get the idea across:

Satan's minions are running around whispering all those things I said into the ears of women.  They are not whispering those things into the ears of men.  They are whispering different things into the ears of men.  It's not the men's fault that they don't hear the things whispered into the ears of women.  It's not the men's fault they know nothing about the things whispered into the ears of women.  (Vice versa for the women.)

You're so stuck on feminism and liberalism that you can't recognize that what I'm saying has nothing to do with them.  You can't recognize that I'm not saying men are wrong or misunderstanding.  I'm saying Satan isn't drilling those words into male brains - he's drilling them into female brains.

Dogs hear frequencies humans don't hear.  That's not the dog's fault.  That's not the human's fault.  It's simply a fact of the frequency and the ear structures.

[zil]

7 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

41 minutes ago, zil said:

The male and female brains are different, the message is transmitted on a frequency male tuners can't receive.

Then I guess I'm a woman.

If you're saying that this message has been drilled into your head in regards to how to react if you are sexually assaulted:

3 hours ago, zil said:

We have been raised in a world¹ that says:

• You should be ashamed.
• You're damaged / ruined / defiled - you're less than you were.
• You shouldn't have been there.
• You're nothing, he's a big wig, without really solid proof and three witnesses (preferably male), no one will believe you.
• You should have known better.
• You weren't righteous enough to recognize and flee from the danger.
• You were wearing the wrong thing / saying the wrong words / smiling at the wrong time / giving the wrong looks.
• You were gullible and foolish.
• If you'd spent more time in prayer or scripture study, the Lord would have protected you.
• etc.
• All of which adds up to - it's your fault.

...Then I will need to modify my presumption to include some males (perhaps many, I wouldn't know - I'm not about to theorize on what the male brain is like, though I may repeat things I've heard from sources I consider credible).¹

If, on the other hand, you're saying that you're aware that above things get drilled into female brains, that's a different matter.  It's not that you heard the original transmission, it's that you have listened to and believed females (or whoever) when they told you that these things were drilled into their heads.

¹NOTE: I am quite certain that similar kinds of things are drilled into every head about some topic or other - Satan would like us all to feel worthless to the point of giving up.  My comments were strictly and explicitly in reaction to the question of why a woman would not immediately report a sexual assault.  That this question seems (to me) to frequently be asked by males, but rarely asked by females makes me think that females are generally aware of above subliminal lessons and males are not - or, if males are, there is something different in them which makes it easier to overcome said lessons.

I'll also note that of course we cannot be all inclusive nor all exclusive - not every female got the above drilled into her head (I hope) and it's entirely possible some males did as well (I hope not many).

I feel like we're getting into fine print land.

[Jane_Doe]

If we're going to be talking about sexual assault, it's important to remember that a large percentage of sexual assault victims are male.  Likewise some perpetrators are female (for both male and female victims).  This isn't a simple man-vs-woman thing: rather victims and those causing hurt exist in both sexes.   

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

@Crash I'm here seconding everything Zil has said. She's explained that she is very Conservative. I'm not.

Zil and I  disagree on many political things, but we agree on this.  This is not a political issue.

BTW, yes, I meant innocent. Fruedian slip, Lol. 

@The Folk Prophet.  I disagree. I don't think men are scum, most men I know are good both in and out of the church.  

 

 

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Now, this was uncalled for.  Rob said that because he's Rob.  And just as credible as @zil has proven herself to be, @Rob Osborn has proven that he's not the quintessential Mormon male.  Do you really believe he doesn't get it because he's a man?  Or because he's Rob?

It wasn't intended to be offensive, or to be specific to Mormon males.  What I meant to say was (insert all of zil's post from this thread here. ....).

I hope that clears things up. 

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, zil said:

If you're saying that this message has been drilled into your head in regards to how to react if you are sexually assaulted:

No, with regard to that specifically,

1) It is drilled into my head that women hear this.  I simply haven't witnessed such drilling first hand.
2) It has been drilled into my head that if a man is sexually assaulted, then they just need to shut up because we're just plain weak if we couldn't fight it off.  Be a man for heaven's sake!  Deal with it.  It has been drilled into my head that men can't be raped.  It has been drilled into my head that if someone had sex with you, then you must have enjoyed it.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

It wasn't intended to be offensive, or to be specific to Mormon males.  What I meant to say was (insert all of zil's post from this thread here. ....).

I hope that clears things up. 

Yes, I caught that Zil said the same thing -- from a different perspective.  But I disagreed with her as well -- hence my comment about me being a woman.

[Crash]

45 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Be a man for heaven's sake!  Deal with it.  

Do you know how many times I've been told to be a man or to man up by a woman? Not a bunch of women, mind you, so I'm not including all of them. No, just one woman, the same one who has been abusive towards me for 12 years and who physically, emotionally and mentally abused my son. There is nothing that can convince me that one sex is incapable of abusing others.

I'll play devil's advocate again. What if it turns out that this woman is lying and the former MTC president is just mortified that he could have wronged anyone and that's why he's apologized? His reputation and legacy will forever be tarnished, if not destroyed, but this woman's legacy and reputation will not be tarnished or destroyed. Her reputation is already tarnished. She's got a criminal history and has not led a clean life, so it would just fall in line with how she's been living. She could, however, be sued for defamation and she'd lose but again, no big change in how she's been living, anyway. The MTC president, however, will always have others look at him and treat him differently no matter what, even in his innocence, and many who went through the MTC when he was president will forever be skeptical of him. His legacy will be destroyed. 

That's why it is so important that we do not pass judgement of any kind lest we be guilty of the greater sin. I believe this is the very essence of Christ's commandment to not judge others unrighteously.  Let's talk about abuse and hope to high heaven that this man did not do what he is accused of doing. If he did do it, then th Lord will absolutely hold him accountable, assuming that his repentance is not genuine, and his reputation will justifiably be destroyed forever. Until then, however, the truth is unknown.