I Cant Wrap My Head Around Men Becoming Gods

[wenglund]

28 minutes ago, bytebear said:

See, I believe the atonement covers all sins, everywhere, past and future, repentant or not.  However, I believe we must believe in Christ to receive the blessings of the atonement, and further, we require covenant (baptism) to receive even more blessings.   The atonement is universal, but our reception of it is not.

So, to you, everyone is always cleansed of sin regardless? Everyone is always pure and clean?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[bytebear]

5 minutes ago, wenglund said:

So, to you, everyone is always cleansed of sin regardless? Everyone is always pure and clean?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Jesus paid for our sins over 2000 years ago.  He felt our pain, our suffering regardless of whether we repent or not.  He paid for the sins of the world, not the sins of the righteous.  The price is paid, the debt is paid, but we still have to act to receive it.

[wenglund]

4 minutes ago, bytebear said:

Jesus paid for our sins over 2000 years ago.  He felt our pain, our suffering regardless of whether we repent or not.  He paid for the sins of the world, not the sins of the righteous.  The price is paid, the debt is paid, but we still have to act to receive it.

I don't see how this answers my specific question. To your mind, does "cover sins" and "paid the debt for sins" amount to cleansing and purifying us from sin?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 22, 2018 by wenglund

[bytebear]

3 minutes ago, wenglund said:

I don't see how this answers my specific question. To your mind, does "cover sins" and "paid the debt for sins" amount to cleansing and purifying us from sin?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Depends on what you mean by cleansing and purifying us from sin?  The act of atonement was a single point in time, 2000 years ago.  All sin was taken upon by Christ.  Whether we benefit from that, is up to us. 

Let me see if I can give you a better analogy.

Say you have a large amount of credit card debt.

Your father says he will pay off the debt, and continue to pay it off, as long as you agree to the stipulation that you live within your means to a sufficient level and then he will let you live in his guest house.   He paid the bank, they are no longer in the picture.  The debt now lies only with your father.  He continues to pay your debt, but if you spend like a drunken sailor, you can't move into the guest house.  And you certainly cannot inherit the main house, since you have not learned to live within your means.  But the debt is still paid.

[wenglund]

2 hours ago, bytebear said:

Depends on what you mean by cleansing and purifying us from sin?  The act of atonement was a single point in time, 2000 years ago.  All sin was taken upon by Christ.  Whether we benefit from that, is up to us. 

Let me see if I can give you a better analogy.

Say you have a large amount of credit card debt.

Your father says he will pay off the debt, and continue to pay it off, as long as you agree to the stipulation that you live within your means to a sufficient level and then he will let you live in his guest house.   He paid the bank, they are no longer in the picture.  The debt now lies only with your father.  He continues to pay your debt, but if you spend like a drunken sailor, you can't move into the guest house.  And you certainly cannot inherit the main house, since you have not learned to live within your means.  But the debt is still paid.

I suppose what I mean by cleansing and purifying is, working off your debt analogy, does the payment of the debt give you a perfect credit rating. Or, said another way, though the book in heaven may be balanced, does the payment of debt impact the accounting on the fleshly tablets of our hearts--i.e. does the payment of the debt make us no longer shop-a-holics and drunken sailor over-spenders.

As I see it,  the atonement is rendered relatively meaningless if our nature continues to be to spend like a drunken sailor. In fact, knowing that the debts will invariably be covered, may provide further incentive to act on our nature to spend like a drunken sailor, even given the contra-incentive of the guest house. Debt creation without consequences may be far more alluring to many than the guest house. And, even if the guest house incentive may be greater than perpetual and inconsequential debt creation, the change in spending behavior to gain the guest house may not change the character.  One may still be an inclined spend-a-holic living reluctant fiscal responsibly in the guest house.

For this reason, to me, the atonement goes beyond payment of debt to also producing a necessary change in character, in ways more than through positive incentives like moving into the guest house.

For this change in character to take place requires action on our part--i.e. faith, repentance, baptism (where the old man of debt creation is buried and the new man is raised up unto fiscal responsibility) and receive the Holy Ghost.

In other words, to be cleansed and purified of our indebted nature involves more than having our debts expunged. I believe the atonement makes that possible, though of necessity through repentance and baptism, etc.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Edited May 22, 2018 by wenglund

[bytebear]

You can never work off the debt.  It is too great for you to ever repay.

[bytebear]

The house analogy does not imply that you just get a house for not spending.  Lamen and Lemual did all that their father asked.  But it does require that we learn to be stewards of what we are given, and use it wisely.  We get the house, not because we followed the rules, but because we learned to run the house correctly.

[wenglund]

8 hours ago, bytebear said:

You can never work off the debt.  It is too great for you to ever repay.

Correct. And, we also can't pay off the debt because that requires someone who is debt free--i.e never been in debt.

8 hours ago, bytebear said:

The house analogy does not imply that you just get a house for not spending.  Lamen and Lemual did all that their father asked.  But it does require that we learn to be stewards of what we are given, and use it wisely.  We get the house, not because we followed the rules, but because we learned to run the house correctly.

I don't see how either of these posts responds directly to what I said. So, let me ask it this way: "To your mind, does the atonement only cleanse the debt due to sin, or is it also intended to cleanse the debtor of indebtedness/sinfulness? And, if the latter, then can that happen absent the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? 

To me, the atonement is as much, if not more, about affecting who we are and will become in the future as it is about what we have or haven't done in the past. It is about changing character in addition to absolving bad behaviors. It is about salvation from a sinful nature as well as salvation from sin. And, this necessitates, at a bear minimum, the first principles and ordinances of the gospel.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Lost Boy]

3 hours ago, wenglund said:

Correct. And, we also can't pay off the debt because that requires someone who is debt free--i.e never been in debt.

I don't see how either of these posts responds directly to what I said. So, let me ask it this way: "To your mind, does the atonement only cleanse the debt due to sin, or is it also intended to cleanse the debtor of indebtedness/sinfulness? And, if the latter, then can that happen absent the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? 

To me, the atonement is as much, if not more, about affecting who we are and will become in the future as it is about what we have or haven't done in the past. It is about changing character in addition to absolving bad behaviors. It is about salvation from a sinful nature as well as salvation from sin. And, this necessitates, at a bear minimum, the first principles and ordinances of the gospel.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I don't know if the change in character comes from the atonement or not, but certainly some heavenly help comes when we seek to better ourselves.

The atonement affects all men.  You only get a change of heart if you seek it.

[wenglund]

1 hour ago, Lost Boy said:

I don't know if the change in character comes from the atonement or not, but certainly some heavenly help comes when we seek to better ourselves.

The atonement affects all men.  You only get a change of heart if you seek it.

As I understand things, the atonement that is universal is the resurrection, which comes by way of heavenly help from Christ, and entails a change in nature, from corruption to incorruption, though not a change in character.

Whereas, the atonement that isn't universal, but conditional, (a point that I intended to raise with @bytebear) entails the remission of sins as well as a change of character--the two being symbiotically related and involving a covenant relationship between us and God. I will explain what I mean by that when I get some time.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Rob Osborn]

I dont know whats so complex here. The atonement does two things- 1. it brings to pass the resurrection of all men. And- 2. It brings to pass the great plan of salvation of enabling one to return to our Heavenly Father clean and pure through obedience to the gospel. Resurrection comes to all. Forgiveness of sins only comes to the repentant. Failure to repent places one outside of the mercy of God and one must pay the full penalty of their sins. For those, the atonement means nothing other than resurrecting them.

 

[bytebear]

I think it's universal and conditional.  Christ paid for the sins of the world.  Every single sin, regardless.  But we cannot receive the blessings of that atonement without repentance and covenant.

[wenglund]

5 hours ago, bytebear said:

I think it's universal and conditional.  Christ paid for the sins of the world.  Every single sin, regardless.  But we cannot receive the blessings of that atonement without repentance and covenant.

I have a somewhat different perspective, though in the end the result may be no different--sixes vs half a dozen.

Thanks, -Wade Enlgund-

[pwrfrk]

On 5/8/2018 at 8:43 PM, Ken S. said:

Can you see my problem with this?  I just cant seem to get it to add up.No matter how I try to look at it, logically it goes back to one God who had to be first and being of no beginning to him as he was always here. 

Now one might say they dont believe there can be something that never had a beginning, but if you can believe in an eternity with no end, then cant you have an eternity with no beginning? But if you had a beginning, then logically dont you have to have an end too?  Again, it just doesnt seem to add up for me.

Ken, NOW you understand why many great scientists are not LDS.  Just because you are on the right track does not mean that yoy will have every bit & piece of knowledge placed before you.  There is a time for everything.  I am sincere when I say "I don't care".  I don't care because it affects me none for me to know now, and someday if I am fortunate enough to become a god, I will learn then. 

Compare it to politics.  Just because you're on a city council does not mean you get a complete tour of Area 51 and Nellis AFB.  That is for the President.

[Overwatch]

Wow. You picked a doozy. Yeah there really isn't a solid explanation of how everything came to be at this time. You can speculate, read the sacred texts cover to cover. Think about theories or concepts that are fitting and help ease the mind. The truth is you most likely won't know until after the trial of this life is over. Either being sent to a dark oblivion to where nothing exists, to being resurrected and judged for your doings. Assuming learning and progression will continue after this mortal existence. Whether God has always existed or there was an awakening of a God who then subdued all intelligence and conquering death. Both/Either then Spreading order throughout the Universes creating beautiful cosmos and having progeny to continue on in the family work. Lol. I think if you think about it too long your brain will explode from the inside out. I think if you want to know something bad enough... ask God Himself. 

Best Wishes for your journey

[tesuji]

Hi, I see lots of great comments here so far already, so I'll just throw out my two cents.

The main doctrine here as I see it is about growing to become a better person.

Also, a core doctrine or our church seems to be that we are spirit children of God. So what we are growing to become is specifically to be like our divine parents - full of love, knowledge, wisdom, joy, self-mastery, etc. This concept isn't so hard to understand - in the natural world, things that are born of parents naturally grow up to be like their parents.

God wants us to have the unimaginably (to us currently) wonderful kind of life he has. If we are willing to qualify for it through hard work and obedience. 

We will all eventually become resurrected beings and "adults" to some degree. But we won't all reach our highest potential (to be like our divine parents) if we aren't willing to live according to the laws required to reach that state.

As far as specifics about how all this works, how God began, etc. - I don't think we have a lot of information yet. The veil - right? So while I think it's important to keep pondering and learning, it can also be unproductive to speculate too much or to assume that we have answers about things that we really don't know yet.

To the OP - in my view some of the things you state as known or obvious facts are not really known to us that degree.

Peace

Edited May 26, 2018 by tesuji

[zil]

Welcome back, @tesuji!

[askandanswer]

Check out this podcast from the Neal A Maxwell Institute to hear a summary of Orson Pratts ideas on how God came into existence. Its not doctrine its not definitive but its definitely interesting.

http://f6ca7f071766b982e711-cac729a3cb7c5b1736b70f8105d42ad6.r70.cf2.rackcdn.com/MIP-Rogers-Milton.mp3

[mikegriffith]

No one knows where or how the first God began, but he surely was not the product of evolution. Evolution is an abjectly illogical, silly theory. If the first God came via evolution, where did the matter and energy come from that were used in the supposed evolutionary process?  "It was just there" is not an answer.

Even if one believes that Jesus Christ is the one and only God, then, according to the New Testament, God was born on a planet, grew up from infancy to manhood, grew in wisdom and stature, suffered death by crucifixion, spent three days in the spirit world as a spirit, and arose from the dead three days later in an immortal body. 

 

[wenglund]

16 hours ago, mikegriffith said:

No one knows where or how the first God began, but he surely was not the product of evolution. Evolution is an abjectly illogical, silly theory. If the first God came via evolution, where did the matter and energy come from that were used in the supposed evolutionary process?  "It was just there" is not an answer.

Even if one believes that Jesus Christ is the one and only God, then, according to the New Testament, God was born on a planet, grew up from infancy to manhood, grew in wisdom and stature, suffered death by crucifixion, spent three days in the spirit world as a spirit, and arose from the dead three days later in an immortal body. 

 

I am little confused. In your first paragraph you dogmatically dismiss evolution, particularly as a means of divination.. Yet, in your second paragraph you tacitly describe how Christ evolved from an infant mortal man to a divine immortal being.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[NeedleinA]

On 5/20/2018 at 9:09 PM, Carborendum said:

Watch for the new film The Return of the Danites: This time, with Seoul!

[Guest]

On 5/31/2018 at 11:47 AM, NeedleinA said:

I'd like to thank my buddy, Needle, for lending me his extensive photoshop skills.

I think he nailed it.  Love what he did with the ammo belt.

Edited June 2, 2018 by Guest

[NeuroTypical]

On 5/31/2018 at 10:47 AM, NeedleinA said:

Although this is truly great, may I make one tiny suggestion?  Use this Brigham Young instead:

 

[Fifthziff]

On 5/23/2018 at 3:03 AM, wenglund said:

Correct. And, we also can't pay off the debt because that requires someone who is debt free--i.e never been in debt.

I don't see how either of these posts responds directly to what I said. So, let me ask it this way: "To your mind, does the atonement only cleanse the debt due to sin, or is it also intended to cleanse the debtor of indebtedness/sinfulness? And, if the latter, then can that happen absent the first principles and ordinances of the gospel? 

To me, the atonement is as much, if not more, about affecting who we are and will become in the future as it is about what we have or haven't done in the past. It is about changing character in addition to absolving bad behaviors. It is about salvation from a sinful nature as well as salvation from sin. And, this necessitates, at a bear minimum, the first principles and ordinances of the gospel.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

It does so much as the carnal nature taken on by birth doesn't become part of our soul or spiritual character. It is possible to be in the world but not of the world.  The "thorn in the flesh" dies when the flesh dies and the atonement allows that to be overcome and no longer a thorn in the flesh or carnal nature. The fallen aspects of our dual natured character resulting from the Fall of Adam are directly overcome by the Atonement upon our own resurrection. But if one loves their carnal nature to the point of taking it in as part of their spiritual character, being OF the world, then that would have to be overcome through faith and repentance.   Those, for example, younger than 8 are not capable of taking in the carnal nature as self, so those flaws by way of being born into a carnal body are taken away by the atonement.

[BJ64]

On 5/17/2018 at 2:03 PM, Carborendum said:

Ahhh.. So, this isn't a sensitive topic after all.  You just enjoy teasing people.  Ok.

No I wasn’t teasing I seriously wonder if English is not your first language. You really didn’t understand my plain English.