The Will of the Lord

[Fether]

Yesterday I learned that the family I minister to's newborn child was admitted to the hospital for some pretty serious complications. When I went to pray, I began by asking God that he be healed, but immediately after I said those words, a thought that often enters my head when I give blessings of healing or pray for the sick came.

What if it is the will of the Lord that the child dies? Then why should I pray for him to get better?

So then I said in my prayer to just have your will be done... but to me, just sounded like a ridiculous and redundant prayer. 

Please do whatever it is thou art going to do. (Why pray at all?)

So what should we pray for? Do we pray for what WE think is right but cognitively know that our view may not be 100%? Do we pray that God's will be done in all instances and not hope for any certain outcome? Should we pray for the faith of those involved in circumstances that no matter the outcome they will realize that everything will still be ok? Should we ever pray for someone to be healed???? Or just pray that the death of a family member won't sway the testimony of those who are close? Can we learn the will of the Lord by revelation? and if so, how does that help us, I feel we would still end up with Please do whatever it is thou art going to do.

  Or, if his will is that the child dies, do I just not pray at all and his will is not fulfilled and the child lives?

So whilst kneeling, my prayer turned into me chasing this idea around and I don't know that I ever decided on what to pray for haha.

[estradling75]

Christ gives the best answer to this is Luke 22

42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

 

Ask for what you want... but recognize the superior position and knowledge of God, and be willing to submit to it.

 

[Guest]

The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves blessings God is already willing to grant but are made conditional on our asking for them.

[unixknight]

Just now, Carborendum said:

The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves blessings God is already willing to grant but are made conditional on our asking for them.

This.  I was talking with my Bishop just a few weeks ago and this came up, and the conclusion was that prayer unlocks blessings Heavenly Father wants us to have, but that we need to demonstrate faith through prayer to receive them. 

And yes, sometimes what we pray for isn't in the plan, but that's where humility comes in.

[Anddenex]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

Please do whatever it is thou art going to do. (Why pray at all?)

Please understand, what I share I am speaking from an individual heart that feels he is the least in understanding of prayer, and yet I know God answers prayers. Here are some of my thoughts as I ponder, have pondered, and will continue to ponder this question:

1) If we ask not, and God gives, we are no different than the unbeliever who receives blessings from God (without asking, i.e. life and breath) without giving credit to he whom has bestowed it upon us.

2) I wish I more understood, but as to my knowledge at this moment, the "will" of death (Book of Mormon) appears to be an aspect of our Telestial world. If we are not in a Telestial world it doesn't appear early death occurs. I would say due to the faith and love of God of those receiving God's blessings. In our Telestial world death will cause some to repent, change, and ultimately coming unto Christ.

3) In prayer, why it is good to ask and yet submit to God's will, we are informed that if we petition enough -- demand -- God will give even if it is not for our benefit. The harmony between asking (receiving or not receiving) and God's will is a mystery that will create conflict.

My personal question in #3, how do we know it is our lack of faith and believing that a prayer is not answered, in comparison to God's will. That is what I struggle most with. I am good with God's will, if it actually is God's will, but not so much with -- I don't know if God's will or not, but it sure hasn't been answered yet.

Or, how do we know that something has not been received due to our lack of preparation (fasting and prayer as mentioned in the Bible) verses God's will.

As to prayer, if I did not have any strong feelings one way or the other, I would honestly pray for both. If it is the will of God to be healed then may the child be healed. If it is the will of God that such is not the case, then please watch over and help me to watch over this couple to comfort them according to they will and Spirit as they might need a helping hand.

Also, I think this is a good talk from Elder Bednar you might like: "That we Might not...Shrink"

 

[Rob Osborn]

Have we ever stopped to ponder the thought that God awaits on us to see what we want and ask for and that through our obedience and diligence he grants those wishes for us upon us? If we are always trying to find the Lords will concerning everything Im not sure theres much growth. Growth happens as we learn Gods will in knowing that for a lot of things its Gods will to see how we deal with things and can exercise faith in bringing to pass miracles.

[Fether]

5 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves blessings God is already willing to grant but are made conditional on our asking for them.

 

41 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Have we ever stopped to ponder the thought that God awaits on us to see what we want and ask for and that through our obedience and diligence he grants those wishes for us upon us? If we are always trying to find the Lords will concerning everything Im not sure theres much growth. Growth happens as we learn Gods will in knowing that for a lot of things its Gods will to see how we deal with things and can exercise faith in bringing to pass miracles.

I understand the concept you are explaining, but my question is a bit different than “God knows what I want so why pray?”

It’s more like this. 100,000 people on the death beds and all of them have faithful people praying for them but it is his will that 70,000 of them die. Do we still pray for all of them to be healed? Or do we just say “do what you are going to do” which seems redundant. I agree that a prayer needs to be said... Just don’t know how to approach it

[e-eye]

7 minutes ago, Fether said:

 

I understand the concept you are explaining, but my question is a bit different than “God knows what I want so why pray?”

It’s more like this. 100,000 people on the death beds and all of them have faithful people praying for them but it is his will that 70,000 of them die. Do we still pray for all of them to be healed? Or do we just say “do what you are going to do” which seems redundant. I agree that a prayer needs to be said... Just don’t know how to approach it

It's an exercise of faith and agency when we pray for things we/others need.

In youth interviews I would often teach that the Lord has an armful of blessings and as you live and keep the commandments he is obligated and blesses you with some of those blessings.  But part of that armful of blessings are blessings that you have to ask for, or you don't get them.  Sure God knows what you need but that doesn't mean they are automatic.

I also think as we perfect our prayers, we will be lead by the spirit on things to pray for aligning our will with the Father.  Another level of asking is to include fasting - this shows forth more faith to the father with increased results.  

Just like some were too lazy to look at the serpent and be healed, some are too lazy to pray for what they need.  

[Overwatch]

You have a big heart! Ask and plead before the Lord for the desires of your heart. Plead for your brethren that good may come upon them. Lift up your voice to the Lord to bless the nations! Just remember that God's will is always done and don't be angry if your way is not met. Also don't forget that a prayer of a righteous man is often answered.

[Rob Osborn]

5 hours ago, Fether said:

 

I understand the concept you are explaining, but my question is a bit different than “God knows what I want so why pray?”

It’s more like this. 100,000 people on the death beds and all of them have faithful people praying for them but it is his will that 70,000 of them die. Do we still pray for all of them to be healed? Or do we just say “do what you are going to do” which seems redundant. I agree that a prayer needs to be said... Just don’t know how to approach it

Here's a deep question for you to ponder-

In Christ's ministry, was there ever an afflicted soul either physically, mentally or spiritually that wanted healed and came to Christ and Jesus said "no, I can't heal you it's not God's will"?

In fact, Christ healed all that we're sick who had faith to be healed. It's not God's will for his children to suffer. It is however our weakness and lack of faith that we need to learn to overcome to heal the sick and afflicted. I have often thought that it's our own lack of faith to heal the sick and afflicted. If Christ we're here, according to his faith, he could heal anyone willing. So why can't we do the same? Lack of faith, imperfections, sins, lack of diligence, etc. The chief disciple Nephi when Christ visited the Americas had incredible faith. He went on to be one of the three Nephites who still walk the earth. His faith was so great he raised the dead! So, why not us? Lack of faith, imperfections, sins, lack of diligence, etc. Here is some of my favorite passages on Nephi I the Disciple-

17 And he did minister many things unto them; and all of them cannot be written, and a part of them would not suffice, therefore they are not written in this book. And Nephi did minister with power and with great authority.
            18 And it came to pass that they were angry with him, even because he had greater power than they, for it were not possible that they could disbelieve his words, for so great was his faith on the Lord Jesus Christ that angels did minister unto him daily.
            19 And in the name of Jesus did he cast out devils and unclean spirits; and even his brother did he raise from the dead, after he had been stoned and suffered death by the people.
            20 And the people saw it, and did witness of it, and were angry with him because of his power; and he did also do many more miracles, in the sight of the people, in the name of Jesus. (3 Nephi 7:17-20)

This is the faith I want to aspire to. I'm a long ways off! So are we all and why we can't perform miracles of such magnitude...yet😊

[Fether]

11 minutes ago, Rob Osborn said:

Here's a deep question for you to ponder-

In Christ's ministry, was there ever an afflicted soul either physically, mentally or spiritually that wanted healed and came to Christ and Jesus said "no, I can't heal you it's not God's will"?

In fact, Christ healed all that we're sick who had faith to be healed. It's not God's will for his children to suffer. It is however our weakness and lack of faith that we need to learn to overcome to heal the sick and afflicted. I have often thought that it's our own lack of faith to heal the sick and afflicted. If Christ we're here, according to his faith, he could heal anyone willing. So why can't we do the same? Lack of faith, imperfections, sins, lack of diligence, etc. The chief disciple Nephi when Christ visited the Americas had incredible faith. He went on to be one of the three Nephites who still walk the earth. His faith was so great he raised the dead! So, why not us? Lack of faith, imperfections, sins, lack of diligence, etc. Here is some of my favorite passages on Nephi I the Disciple-

17 And he did minister many things unto them; and all of them cannot be written, and a part of them would not suffice, therefore they are not written in this book. And Nephi did minister with power and with great authority.
            18 And it came to pass that they were angry with him, even because he had greater power than they, for it were not possible that they could disbelieve his words, for so great was his faith on the Lord Jesus Christ that angels did minister unto him daily.
            19 And in the name of Jesus did he cast out devils and unclean spirits; and even his brother did he raise from the dead, after he had been stoned and suffered death by the people.
            20 And the people saw it, and did witness of it, and were angry with him because of his power; and he did also do many more miracles, in the sight of the people, in the name of Jesus. (3 Nephi 7:17-20)

This is the faith I want to aspire to. I'm a long ways off! So are we all and why we can't perform miracles of such magnitude...yet😊

Really appreciate this comment. So why was everyone in scripture healed, but today we hear talks that mention having the faith NOT to be healed (https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2013/01/that-we-might-not-shrink-d-c-19-18?lang=eng)

That could be a whole topic on its own

[Rob Osborn]

24 minutes ago, Fether said:

Really appreciate this comment. So why was everyone in scripture healed, but today we hear talks that mention having the faith NOT to be healed (https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2013/01/that-we-might-not-shrink-d-c-19-18?lang=eng)

That could be a whole topic on its own

It's a good question. I have never looked at it that way I guess. I think one thing that hurts us in our ability of exercising great faith is our crutch of technology. We get to relying so much on technology for support that in many things it requires no faith for much of what we do in the day. Faith itself is a spiritual gifts and if not regularly exercised every day it will wane. I think we all fall into that trap more or less. 

[zil]

9 hours ago, Fether said:

So why was everyone in scripture healed

Quote

Alma 15:10 And then Alma cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord our God, have mercy on this man, and heal him according to his faith which is in Christ.

Quote

3 Nephi 17:8 For I perceive that ye desire that I should show unto you what I have done unto your brethren at Jerusalem, for I see that your faith is sufficient that I should heal you.

Quote

Mark 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.

6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

Matthew 17:15-21

Quote

2 Nephi 27:23 For behold, I am God; and I am a God of miracles; and I will show unto the world that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and I work not among the children of men save it be according to their faith.

Quote

Ether 12:12 For if there be no faith among the children of men God can do no miracle among them; wherefore, he showed not himself until after their faith.

Quote

D&C 46:19 And again, to some it is given to have faith to be healed;

20 And to others it is given to have faith to heal.

The faith of the sick person is clearly critical.  The faith of the healer is clearly relevant (though I don't know if it's enough to overcome the doubt of the sick person - appears not).  Clearly the will of the Lord matters.  To say we could all be healed if Christ just shows up is clearly wrong - there were some he was not able to heal because of their lack of faith.  To say that we could all be healed if we had sufficient faith seems like a no-brainer, but on the other hand, we've learned a lot in this dispensation about the "economy of heaven" - that God doesn't do for us what we can do ourselves.  Further, we have a decent understanding that there is work to be done on the other side of the veil (and apparently some of us are needed there sooner than we or others might like us to go there).  And just because we don't have an account of someone not being healed (despite their faith), doesn't mean no one wasn't left to endure (think of Paul's issue).  And even if everyone who had faith was healed back then, it doesn't mean that matches God's intent for everyone in this dispensation.

In other words, I don't think there's a simple answer - too many variables at play.

@Fether, I'm am 100% certain lots of us have wondered the same question and felt the same frustration.  There have been plenty of times when I've thought "God's will is going to be done no matter what, so what exactly is the point in praying (for it or anything else)?".  The closest I've ever come to an answer is that my prayers probably need more changing from things like "please heal this person" to things more like "what can I do to help", "what am I supposed to be learning here", and things more conversational about how I feel, what I would like, what God wants, what we all can learn (including me), etc., just like you might converse with your parents or spouse about the situation.  Such prayers seem much more time-consuming and difficult than the simple "thanks and please" prayers we're taught as children - which is, perhaps, part of the point.  (Another part of the point is that I think if it's possible, the other type of prayer should be taught to children - for their sakes.)  FWIW.

[Anddenex]

12 hours ago, Fether said:

Really appreciate this comment. So why was everyone in scripture healed, but today we hear talks that mention having the faith NOT to be healed (https://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/ces-devotionals/2013/01/that-we-might-not-shrink-d-c-19-18?lang=eng)

That could be a whole topic on its own

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego...."But if not..."

[dhnichols]

one of my favorite talks was by Spencer W Kimball - Tragedy or Destiny (sorry I only know a link to the audio: https://speeches.byu.edu/talks/spencer-w-kimball_tragedy-destiny/ ) 

another idea/thought, prayer can be a two-way communication. It is right to pray for what we want - but if it's not right (not the Lord's Will) - we can also pray to know and understand that the answer might be no.

 

[zil]

So, this morning as I trod on the trudgemill, I was reading from April 2018 General Conference ("With One Accord" by Reyna I. Aburto) and she referenced the following scripture, and the part I've bolded struck me in a new way:

Quote

Mosiah 15:7 Yea, even so he shall be led, crucified, and slain, the flesh becoming subject even unto death, the will of the Son being swallowed up in the will of the Father.

I often hear this scripture used to suggest that we should give up our own will and, essentially, replace it with God's will - as if the two were completely incompatible and our own will is cast out or destroyed.  Now there can be times when this is a useful analogy.  However, the idea that came to my mind matches this image, in that the larger circle has "swallowed" the smaller circle, but the smaller circle still exists as its own entity.

I believe that our Father preserved or created (depending on how you want to perceive a person's intelligence, or when their sentience began) our unique, individual identity on purpose and because even if cardboard-cutout-hood were an option, it would not best fit His plan.  Thus, the above image could suggest that the Father's will is that our righteous wills also be done.  For example, if I desire to lift someone, comfort them, share with them the gospel truths I love; or if I want to develop a talent unique to me and use it to express myself in positive ways, God wills the same thing - that I do these things in ways unique to me.  I believe that God's will includes the unique exaltation of each individual who chooses to follow that path.  Thus, where my will is in harmony with the Father's, it is already swallowed up in His will - His will is that I instantiate (enact, carry out) the harmonious bits of my own will.

While such an approach could certainly be perverted, I believe it can also be empowering, particularly for those who feel like others are trying to force them to abandon their individual identity.

I have always read the verb "comprehend" these verses with similar imagery in mind (where comprehend is synonymous with include, contain, and surround).

Quote

D&C 88:41 He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him; and he is above all things, and in all things, and is through all things, and is round about all things; and all things are by him, and of him, even God, forever and ever.

42 And again, verily I say unto you, he hath given a law unto all things, by which they move in their times and their seasons;

43 And their courses are fixed, even the courses of the heavens and the earth, which comprehend the earth and all the planets.

...

67 And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things.

If we think of prayer from this perspective, it may make it easier to shift from the prayers where we ask only for God to do things independently of us (e.g. heal someone), to the more difficult prayers where we ask for God to help us act on those parts of our will which are already in harmony with His, and thus "be anxiously engaged ... and do many things of [our] own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness" (D&C 58:27).

(I also read President Nelson's talk this morning - "Ministering with the Power and Authority of God" and felt like it was a call for all to act in more faith and confidence that the good things we desire are also God's will, and that God has endowed us with power to translate desire into reality, but that we're not using said power.)

Anywho, I felt to share these thoughts here and hope they may be helpful to someone.  I think I'll also go put this on my website.

(And since there are some here who I believe think far too highly of my spiritual stature, I will point out that this kind of thing in my morning study is extremely rare, to my own condemnation, no doubt.)

Edited June 14, 2018 by zil

[Traveler]

It is my understanding that our prayers are to draw us closer to G-d and his will than it is to instruct him concerning what his will ought to be.  And sometimes I think it is the will of G-d that we earnestly request blessing (even in prayer) before granting certain blessings.  If I remember correctly the Bible Dictionary in our Bible version suggest this very thing.

 

The Traveler