A question about modesty and exercising


Opal
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16 hours ago, SpiritDragon said:

hen anyone is needing to ask about something like this it is by definition questionable.

While this is true...typically 'questionable' in these contexts implies 'problematic' and that is clearly debatable. 

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26 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

While this is true...typically 'questionable' in these contexts implies 'problematic' and that is clearly debatable. 

From my perspective, saying that the problematicness of a behaviour is debatable is the same as saying the behaviour is questionable. If it were clearly spelled out so that there was no question there would be no real issue to debate if the source spelling it out were revered equally by the parties involved.

That being said, I think this leans toward the side of not being questionable, but being plainly taught against as we can see in the For the Strength of Youth Standards that would certainly apply before endowment and should be built on and not diminished from afterwords.

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Youth

Dress and Appearance

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? … The temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corinthians 3:16–17

Your body is sacred. Respect it and do not defile it in any way. Through your dress and appearance, you can show that you know how precious your body is. You can show that you are a disciple of Jesus Christ and that you love Him.

Prophets of God have continually counseled His children to dress modestly. When you are well groomed and modestly dressed, you invite the companionship of the Spirit and you can be a good influence on others. Your dress and grooming influence the way you and others act.

Never lower your standards of dress. Do not use a special occasion as an excuse to be immodest. When you dress immodestly, you send a message that is contrary to your identity as a son or daughter of God. You also send the message that you are using your body to get attention and approval.

HIDE

Immodest clothing is any clothing that is tight, sheer, or revealing in any other manner. Young women should avoid short shorts and short skirts, shirts that do not cover the stomach, and clothing that does not cover the shoulders or is low-cut in the front or the back. Young men should also maintain modesty in their appearance. Young men and young women should be neat and clean and avoid being extreme or inappropriately casual in clothing, hairstyle, and behavior. They should choose appropriately modest apparel when participating in sports. The fashions of the world will change, but the Lord’s standards will not change.

 

It seems to me that the question of short shorts and tank tops is being laid out specifically as something we can do better than, and should not lower our standards because of a special occasion or sport participation. Personally, I see these definitions encompassing while exercising and therefore believe that standards of modesty should not be lowered for the occasion or participation in the activity. 

I think when we don't follow the counsel given by prophets we are moving into problematic territory and that is questionable. We need not be asking how close to the line can we go before crossing it, but should be staying well clear.

Again, my perspective. It's not my place to judge what is in other's hearts directing the decisions they make in such matters.

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On 9/30/2018 at 1:32 PM, SpiritDragon said:

It seems to me that the question of short shorts and tank tops is being laid out specifically as something we can do better than, and should not lower our standards because of a special occasion or sport participation. Personally, I see these definitions encompassing while exercising and therefore believe that standards of modesty should not be lowered for the occasion or participation in the activity. 

The "appropriately" on appropriately modest for sports makes swimsuits for swim competition, shorts and tanktop for track and field, skin-tight unisuits for speed skating, etc. etc. appropriately modest and in keeping with standards of modesty.

 

On 9/30/2018 at 1:32 PM, SpiritDragon said:

Again, my perspective. It's not my place to judge what is in other's hearts directing the decisions they make in such matters.

I am in complete agreement with this.

 

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1 hour ago, anatess2 said:

The "appropriately" on appropriately modest for sports makes swimsuits for swim competition, shorts and tanktop for track and field, skin-tight unisuits for speed skating, etc. etc. appropriately modest and in keeping with standards of modesty.

Because of what I consider wiggle room in interpretation I am open to accepting other interpretations such as yours. This is why to begin with I said it was questionable, but not outright wrong. Let's stick to the part we completely agree with and simply do our best with the understanding we have :)

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I think that watching this video and discussing this issue with a faithful family member who is endowed gave me a lot more peace and clarity about this topic. Thank you for your thoughts. I think modesty is more about living the spirit of the law than the letter of the law.

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2 hours ago, Opal said:

I think modesty is more about living the spirit of the law than the letter of the law.

The implication that these two are mutually exclusive (cannot co-exist) is flawed. It's like you're saying, "I can either choose to live the spirit of the law or the letter of the law". Well that's not correct.

Whereas I will grant that there are perhaps, sometimes, extenuating circumstances where "breaking" the law is following "the spirit of the law", as a general rule I would say that's seriously problematic.

What it sounds like when someone says they're going to follow the spirit of the law instead of the letter is excusing their breaking of the law by implying that they're following the spirit of the law but they're really ignoring the law and setting up a law unto themselves to follow.

Take the Word of Wisdom as an example. Would you think it justified for someone to drink wine now and again because experts have said it was healthy to do so? Is not the "spirit" of the Word of Wisdom health?

The spirit of the law is above and beyond the letter -- not in opposition to it.

The letter of the law is "don't speed". The spirit of the law is drive safe, which includes not speeding.

Christ explained it better (Matt 5):

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

...

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:

Etc...

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/5

 

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Guest MormonGator

 From what I've seen a lot of endowed members don't like to take their endowment clothing off no matter what. After my endowment a woman said "We can go swimming and workout without endowment clothing, but I don't like to." I think many members share that opinion. 

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1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The implication that these two are mutually exclusive (cannot co-exist) is flawed. It's like you're saying, "I can either choose to live the spirit of the law or the letter of the law". Well that's not correct.

Whereas I will grant that there are perhaps, sometimes, extenuating circumstances where "breaking" the law is following "the spirit of the law", as a general rule I would say that's seriously problematic.

What it sounds like when someone says they're going to follow the spirit of the law instead of the letter is excusing their breaking of the law by implying that they're following the spirit of the law but they're really ignoring the law and setting up a law unto themselves to follow.

Take the Word of Wisdom as an example. Would you think it justified for someone to drink wine now and again because experts have said it was healthy to do so? Is not the "spirit" of the Word of Wisdom health?

The spirit of the law is above and beyond the letter -- not in opposition to it.

The letter of the law is "don't speed". The spirit of the law is drive safe, which includes not speeding.

Christ explained it better (Matt 5):

21 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

...

27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:

32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:

Etc...

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/5

 

I think that virtues, when taken too extreme, can become vices. In fact, I've read a book about this topic. "Extremes: How to keep your virtues from becoming vices." by Robert Eaton. I've learned that in life, you need to have a reasonable balance. Also, you're comparing modesty to speeding, adultery, and anger. These things cannot practically be compared. Given your speeding example, sometimes if you're driving on the freeway you have to drive a bit above the speed limit and go with the speed and flow of the traffic. Otherwise, you can cause an accident. People need to make decisions based on logic by pondering, coming to a personal understanding and forming their own judgments. When joining this forum I honestly did not expect to receive so much negative judgment. 😅 I was only hoping for some kind advice. I think the only one who is really qualified to judge our actions is God.

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7 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

 From what I've seen a lot of endowed members don't like to take their endowment clothing off no matter what. After my endowment a woman said "We can go swimming and workout without endowment clothing, but I don't like to." I think many members share that opinion. 

I am curious what kind of attire people wear when swimming while wearing the endowment clothing?

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5 minutes ago, Opal said:

I am curious what kind of attire people wear when swimming while wearing the endowment clothing?

I have no idea. That's a very good question.

I'm from the full burka wing of the LDS community. Both men and women should be forced to wear full burkas 24/7. 

Edited by MormonGator
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6 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

I have no idea. That's a very good question.

I'm from the full burka wing of the LDS community. Both men and women should be forced to wear full burkas 24/7. 

Are you serious or joking because I can't tell?

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5 hours ago, Opal said:

I think that virtues, when taken too extreme, can become vices. 

Agreed. If someone refuses to remove their garments for any reason at any time I think there's a problem. But that is irrelevant to what I said.

5 hours ago, Opal said:

Also, you're comparing modesty to speeding, adultery, and anger. These things cannot practically be compared

Sure they can. I just did.

Modesty is, at it's core, not about showing skin. It's about an attitude. The "law" of modesty is that attitude. Having an attitude of modesty is following the law. Having an attitude of modesty is also the spirit of it.

I'd say a better example of "the spirit of the law" for modesty is when parents make sure their younger children don't wear sleeveless shirts or skirts higher than the knee. That's not really the letter of the law, since children have no sense of modesty, but certainly plays into the spirit of the law. An adult showing a bunch of skin and then claiming they're living the "spirit" of modesty is nonsense.

5 hours ago, Opal said:

sometimes if you're driving on the freeway you have to drive a bit above the speed limit and go with the speed and flow of the traffic.

No. You don't. And if you do, you're much likelier to end up with a ticket for breaking the law...because you're breaking the law. I don't speed. I've never had a ticket. I've never been in an accident. Your reasoning is seriously flawed.

5 hours ago, Opal said:

Otherwise, you can cause an accident.

That's the kind of garbage teenagers come up with. "I had to speed, mom...otherwise I would have caused an accident because everyone else was speeding." Right.

5 hours ago, Opal said:

People need to make decisions based on logic by pondering, coming to a personal understanding and forming their own judgments.

Did I say otherwise? That doesn't mean that any given person's personal understanding is right however.

5 hours ago, Opal said:

When joining this forum I honestly did not expect to receive so much negative judgment.

You're not getting negative judgment. Some of the ideas you present are. You're making excuses to justify the wearing of immodest clothing and you're getting challenged on the validity of those ideas. If you can't stand the heat, as they say, get out of the kitchen.

I said, right up front, I don't have an issue with girls working out in shorter shorts and tank tops (depends on how "short"). I don't consider that de facto inappropriate. But the reasoning(s) you're giving aren't all valid in my opinion.

5 hours ago, Opal said:

I was only hoping for some kind advice.

Which you got.

5 hours ago, Opal said:

I think the only one who is really qualified to judge our actions is God.

Which is entirely irrelevant to the discussion of principle.

Edited by The Folk Prophet
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5 hours ago, Opal said:

I think that watching this video and discussing this issue with a faithful family member who is endowed gave me a lot more peace and clarity about this topic. Thank you for your thoughts. I think modesty is more about living the spirit of the law than the letter of the law.

Opal, on this forum we often get people who come asking a question of some sort. After some discussion, it becomes glaringly obvious that they are not actually looking for insight or discussion, but for agreement with their opinion and justification of their own biases.

Based on your OP and your subsequent posts, you appear to be one of these. That's too bad, because if your mind were open enough to consider what others have written, you might get a better viewpoint on the subject. But your mind appears to be made up, so I guess that's that.

There are a couple of your most recent statements worth critiquing:

2 hours ago, Opal said:

I think that virtues, when taken too extreme, can become vices.

Purely a matter of word definition. This is a game. What does it mean to take a virtue to the extreme? Charity is a virtue. Is it possible to be too filled with charity? (No.) Godly modesty is a virtue. Is it possible to have too much Godly modesty? (Of course not.)

But to play the word game: Being friendly is a virtue. Is it possible to be too friendly to, oh, let's say, a serial killer? See, because if you give him a ride or invite him into your home, he might kill you and your children! So being too friendly is EVIL!

...or, maybe it's just a stupid example to try to justify a too-facile statement. Virtues are virtues, which by definition are not vices.

2 hours ago, Opal said:

...sometimes if you're driving on the freeway you have to drive a bit above the speed limit and go with the speed and flow of the traffic. Otherwise, you can cause an accident.

Speaking as one who often drives slightly over the posted speed limit: Baloney. This is false, plain and simple. Even in California, you never need to drive over the speed limit to be safe. This is an excuse (and a particularly pathetic one) used by teens and those who like to drive too fast. When I drive too fast, I'm driving too fast. Shame on me. But I don't pretend it's because I would be unsafe driving at the posted speed limit. That's pure garbage.

2 hours ago, Opal said:

People need to make decisions based on logic by pondering, coming to a personal understanding and forming their own judgments.

No. People need to make decisions based on the Spirit. That probably includes pondering, logic, and coming to an understanding. But if you depend solely upon your own logic and good sense, you will often make a wrong decision.

2 hours ago, Opal said:

When joining this forum I honestly did not expect to receive so much negative judgment. 😅

So then, you mean that others are not allowed "to make decisions based on logic by pondering, coming to a personal understanding and forming their own judgments" unless their judgments agree with yours?

2 hours ago, Opal said:

I was only hoping for some kind advice.

Of which you received a great deal.

2 hours ago, Opal said:

I think the only one who is really qualified to judge our actions is God.

Then you think wrong. We are commanded to judge actions and situations. Seriously, think about what you wrote above. Surely you see that it's the purest nonsense. Do you honestly believe that only God is qualified to judge the action of armed robbery of a 7-11 as evil? Only God can tell the murderer that he shouldn't murder? It takes God himself to pronounce the actions of an adulterous woman as being bad? I don't think that even you believe such nonsense.

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1 hour ago, Vort said:

Opal, on this forum we often get people who come asking a question of some sort. After some discussion, it becomes glaringly obvious that they are not actually looking for insight or discussion, but for agreement with their opinion and justification of their own biases.

 

I actually had not formed an opinion until I made that post saying that I had come to a satisfying conclusion. I was looking for insight or discussion but I felt like people were trying to forcefully shove their own beliefs on me instead.

Quote

Based on your OP and your subsequent posts, you appear to be one of these. That's too bad, because if your mind were open enough to consider what others have written, you might get a better viewpoint on the subject. But your mind appears to be made up, so I guess that's that.

It's a bit rude to assume that I am not open-minded.

Quote

People need to make decisions based on the Spirit. That probably includes pondering, logic, and coming to an understanding. But if you depend solely upon your own logic and good sense, you will often make a wrong decision.

I didn't mention the spirit because I felt as though that's a given. It's basic primary knowledge. Following the guidance of the spirit is a personal, individual thing.

Quote

So then, you mean that others are not allowed "to make decisions based on logic by pondering, coming to a personal understanding and forming their own judgments" unless their judgments agree with yours?

 

I never said anything of the sort. In fact, I believe that it's ok for me to live according to what feels right to me while others can act according to their own beliefs. Don't put words into my mouth.

Quote

Then you think wrong. We are commanded to judge actions and situations. Seriously, think about what you wrote above. Surely you see that it's the purest nonsense. Do you honestly believe that only God is qualified to judge the action of armed robbery of a 7-11 as evil? Only God can tell the murderer that he shouldn't murder? It takes God himself to pronounce the actions of an adulterous woman as being bad? I don't think that even you believe such nonsense.

I do in fact believe that God, and only God, has the final say regarding the eternal consequences each person receives.

Quote

1 Samuel 24:12: The Lord judge between me and thee, and the Lord avenge me of thee: but mine hand shall not be upon thee.

By God, I mean the Godhead. God the father, the Savior, and the Holy Ghost. Christ forgave an adulterous woman of her sins in the bible. Yes, men and woman can determine for themselves what they believe is right or wrong but it doesn't mean that mankind's judgment is perfect. God's judgment is perfect.


I just want to wear reasonable work out clothes. 😂

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10 hours ago, Opal said:

I do in fact believe that God, and only God, has the final say regarding the eternal consequences each person receives.

There's a difference between judging an action and judging a person.  Your initial comment was about action, and that's the comment to which @Vort was responding.  Judging actions is wise.  Judging people to be worthy or unworthy of some eternal reward is wrong.

10 hours ago, Opal said:

Christ forgave an adulterous woman of her sins in the bible.

Actually, he did not condemn her.  There's a difference.

FWIW, just because someone is stating their opinion / interpretation / belief, even passionately, it doesn't mean they're trying to cram anything down anyone's throat.  And given that we're all just looking at pixels on computer screens here, you get to choose how to interpret the pixels.  My experience is that not taking them personally (and giving others the benefit of the doubt) leads too a happier relationship with said pixels.

Edited by zil
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13 hours ago, Opal said:

I actually had not formed an opinion until I made that post saying that I had come to a satisfying conclusion. I was looking for insight or discussion but I felt like people were trying to forcefully shove their own beliefs on me instead.

Yeah, I know. How awful that you ask people to share their opinions and insights, and instead of giving you what you want, they share their opinions and insights!

13 hours ago, Opal said:

It's a bit rude to assume that I am not open-minded.

I made no such assumption. I based my judgment on behavior in evidence.

13 hours ago, Opal said:

I didn't mention the spirit because I felt as though that's a given. It's basic primary knowledge. Following the guidance of the spirit is a personal, individual thing.

Funny, then, that the prophets and the scriptures seem to think it's important to mention following the Spirit at every opportunity. I suppose you're just operating on a higher plane than they are.

That the Spirit's guidance is personal and individual doesn't mean it's random and unpredictable. Quite the opposite.

13 hours ago, Opal said:
Quote

So then, you mean that others are not allowed "to make decisions based on logic by pondering, coming to a personal understanding and forming their own judgments" unless their judgments agree with yours?

 

I never said anything of the sort. In fact, I believe that it's ok for me to live according to what feels right to me while others can act according to their own beliefs. Don't put words into my mouth.

This is particularly hilarious, seeing as how I WAS QUOTING YOU WORD FOR WORD.

13 hours ago, Opal said:

I do in fact believe that God, and only God, has the final say regarding the eternal consequences each person receives.

Are you also in favor of solid health and against children starving? "Up with good! Down with evil!"

You started out condemning situational judgmentalism ("When joining this forum I honestly did not expect to receive so much negative judgment"), but now retreat to a wholly different position of personal judgment. You're shamelessly moving the goalposts. No one said anything about personal judgmentalism or determining the eternal consequences that person might receive. You are making that up out of whole cloth.

13 hours ago, Opal said:

Christ forgave an adulterous woman of her sins in the bible.

A sad and complete misunderstanding of what the Bible actually teaches. Christ refused to judge the woman at that time, instead urging her to "sin no more". Refusing to judge someone is not the same as forgiving her. Make no mistake, the time of judgment will come, and she (and everyone else, including those who have not repented) will indeed be judged.

13 hours ago, Opal said:

men and woman can determine for themselves what they believe is right or wrong but it doesn't mean that mankind's judgment is perfect.

Red herring. No one ever made any such claim.

13 hours ago, Opal said:

I just want to wear reasonable work out clothes.

Bull. Your intentions in making this thread have blossomed into full view.

Edited by Vort
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57 minutes ago, Vort said:

Christ refused to judge the woman at that time, instead urging her to "sin no more". Refusing to judge someone is not the same as forgiving her. Make no mistake, the time of judgment will come, and she (and anyone else who has not repented) will indeed be judged.

Actually (just for the sake of conversation) I would say he did "judge" her at that time. He judged that she deserved the chance to go and sin no more -- that she did not deserved to be stoned to death (condemned to die).

I've said this before, but I'll repeat here: Not judging is an impossibility. Not judging is judging that one doesn't need to or deserve to be "judged", which still requires judgment.

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I have to say I just don't get the "garments are too hot" thing.

I live in a place with high of around 115 degree summer temps. I live in a hot place. I've also lived in Phoenix Arizona and while it was a little bit hotter there, it wasn't much hotter.

I wear garments, long pants almost every day, and occasionally I've even worn long sleeved shirts during the summer. While I work indoors, I work in a huge distribution center, it is not cooled by a/c and it gets hot in there, particularly as you get close to the roof in equipment. I sweat a lot at work. What I do (did, I work in the office now, with an a/c, it's nice) is fairly difficult manual labor. The thought never crossed my mind to remove my garments for this sweaty 12 hour workday of mine.

Personally I'd just work out in a loose shirt and shorts. Wear the nylon mesh garments if you like, they are fantastic for sweaty situations. They are barely there!

 

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