Children with gay parents

[iamdiamd]

Just now, MormonGator said:

Actually according to many of us, but @Jane_Doe is the only one who said it. 

Don't care the world is wrong on a whole lot of things these days.

[Guest MormonGator]

Just now, iamdiamd said:

Don't care the world is wrong on a whole lot of things these days.

Indeed it is. 
 

[NeuroTypical]

I'm finding myself more emotionally involved with this topic than I expected.  I've been overly snarky and divisive.  Sorry to Wade/TFP/Rob Osborn.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, iamdiamd said:

And yes he is going on homosexual dates with approval from his Stake President.  The guy writes about it on his blog, you just have to read what he writes.

Why do you trust his reports?

[Fether]

57 minutes ago, iamdiamd said:

Being raised in a homosexual family is child abuse.

Being raised in a homosexual home is as much child abuse as it is to raise a child without FHE, family scripture study, parents that attend the temple regularly, or parents that don’t magnify their callings.

[let’s roll]

23 hours ago, Jane_Doe said:

I think an important distinction needs to be made here between those we love, and those we are directly sealed/seal-able to in the Lord's eyes.  "Family" is a label that can applied to both definitions, but there may be different folks in each category.  

For example: my husband and his best friend have been close-buddies for decades.  This best friend was the Best Man at our wedding, he's "Uncle John" to my daughter, etc.  He is totally loved and family under that definition.  But he's not someone we're sealed directly too.  Though of course we are all siblings in Christ.

A different example: some parents are abusive to their kids.   This wrecks their relationship with the kid: there is no love there left, and sometimes no contact at all for the sake of safety.  This is still family in the fact that the sealing is there (definition #2), but not the love.  Of course the parent's sinful behavior also wrecks their relationship with God.  

 

Now timing this back to homosexual relationships: no, this is not a valid seal-able relationship.  It goes against God's will.  That's obvious.  But what should also be obvious is that these people do care for each other.  And especially for children raised in these households: both of these folks are parental figures, and the kid feels that love/devotion to them.  We should never forget that or how important a child's love is.  Yes, stand for Truth, but also too be sensitive, especially when working with minor children.  

@Jane_Doe  you’ve demonstrated the love, patience, and compassion you invite us all to have in the post above in responding to those trying to deconstruct your invitation or claim that it’s something that it’s not.  I commend you for that.

To your point, young children are neither familiar with, nor interested in, others’ determination to define families to their own liking regardless of how well-founded that definition is in a theology that young child also knows little or nothing about.  

In that context your invitation is thoughtful and well-founded.  To declare to a young child that the loving support structure he or she lives in isn’t a family, labelling the child among all his/her peers as the only one without a family can’t be described as anything but unnecessarily cruel.

[Guest MormonGator]

6 minutes ago, Fether said:

Being raised in a homosexual home is as much child abuse as it is to raise a child without FHE, family scripture study, parents that attend the temple regularly, or parents that don’t magnify their callings.

So....every non LDS family is committing child abuse?  

[Fether]

Just now, MormonGator said:

So....every non LDS family is committing child abuse?  

I was challenging his initial notion. If you consider having homosexual parents child abuse, then you should consider in deviation in obedience by the parents child abuse as well.

 

[Guest MormonGator]

1 minute ago, Fether said:

I was challenging his initial notion. If you consider having homosexual parents child abuse, then you should consider in deviation in obedience by the parents child abuse as well.

Oh. 

Because child abuse is an incredibly loaded term. In fact, it's like comparing someone to Hitler. So beyond rational discussion that those who use it are immediately marginalized.

[Fether]

1 minute ago, MormonGator said:

Oh. 

Because child abuse is an incredibly loaded term. In fact, it's like comparing someone to Hitler. So beyond rational discussion that those who use it are immediately marginalized.

I agree, I think it is idiotic to say homosexuality or any deviation from commandments (save physical, sexual or emotional abuse) is child abuse.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Fether said:

I was challenging his initial notion. If you consider having homosexual parents child abuse, then you should consider in deviation in obedience by the parents child abuse as well.

 

Non sequitur. In calling homosexual parenting "child abuse", @iamdiamd is clearly suggesting that homosexual parenting is far more vile and sinful than other bad situations we might put our children into, so bad that it qualifies as abuse of the child, not mere neglect or mistakes. You may not agree with this, and of course you're free to disagree and even advance arguments as to why he's wrong. But instead you've made an unequal comparison. His argument was quite obviously never meant to suggest that any deviation from the Perfect Parenting Standard is equally evil, but rather that homosexual parenting is especially bad. I, for one, think he makes a fairly compelling case.

Edited October 25, 2018 by Vort

[Guest MormonGator]

2 minutes ago, Fether said:

I agree, I think it is idiotic to say homosexuality or any deviation from commandments (save physical, sexual or emotional abuse) is child abuse.

Same. I think it's actually helpful, because it shows me who I don't have to take seriously anymore. On my Facebook I love watching people compare Trump/Obama to Hitler because I then don't have to listen to anything else they say. Same with people who throw around the term "child abuse" in regards to situations like this. We agree 100%. 

[iamdiamd]

2 hours ago, MormonGator said:

Same. I think it's actually helpful, because it shows me who I don't have to take seriously anymore. On my Facebook I love watching people compare Trump/Obama to Hitler because I then don't have to listen to anything else they say. Same with people who throw around the term "child abuse" in regards to situations like this. We agree 100%. 

I do not use the term lightly and I most certainly do not throw it around.  The raising of a child to an adult is an extremely important process. It is most likely the single greatest act a human being will do for the rest of society-that is righteously raising the next generation.

It is an extremely wicked, and evil ideology and just demonstrates how far removed we are as a culture from God that anyone could possibly fathom that a child raised in a household with two homosexuals is anything other than evil. 

Children are sponges and they model human behavior.  If the parent swears in front of the child, the child will swear, if a parent throws and hits things the child will act out like that.  Once they become old enough as independent human beings then they can start to self-regulate their behavior and say, my parents do xyz, but that is bad so I won't do xyz.  But that takes years and years and almost inevitably anyone who has lived long enough, or who has any bit of self-reflection will almost immediately say, oh yes, I have this, this and this habit that was taught and trained to me by my parents.  

We know this, it is self-evident.  And yet either because people are blinded by society, or because they don't want to say it (and look mean), or because they absolutely have no clue (or have an agenda), they self-delude themselves into saying, yeah, yeah, that's perfectly fine for a child to be raised by two homosexuals.  Really? 

In a religion where we know that the foundation of everything is based upon a mother and a father we are taking one of the most perverted societal structures and saying, yeah, yeah that's okay that they are raised that way.  It's stunning how blinded people can be.

And this is a totally different situation than being raised by a single-parent, because their are only two ways for a child to end up being raised in a homosexual household.   Either through adoption, or because one parent went down a sinful path and the courts allowed that parent to take custody.  And either one is tremendously bad.  It absolutely is child abuse, imposed by the state, to have an innocent child raised in a wicked, perverse, sinful relationship like a homosexual relationship and then have everyone around them pretend that it's okay.  It's not okay-it will jack with their heads for the rest of their lives, they will absolutely have emotional, mental and relationship problems because of it. 

It's stunning the depths people go to so that they can avoid personal responsibility of standing up for what's morally right when the crowd is against them.  Allowing children to be adopted into or raised by (through the custody courts) homosexual partners is a great, great sin.  It absolutely offends God b/c it offends his little ones.  And anyone who defends it, should take a real hard look at their own soul. 

The bottom line is that many people, even many members don't have enough faith in the God ordained structures of the family to really defend it and I mean to really defend it.  Many are too scared of being intimidated that they half-heatedly defend it, they say things like "I'm personally against it, but people should have the right to do as they please, love who they love" . . .yeah, yeah, that's not a defense that a way to act like you defend it without having to actually take any responsibility. There is nothing that I'm saying that wouldn't have been common knowledge, common understanding 20 years ago and the responses opposing what I've written would be looked at the same way to which I'm looked at here.

Edited October 25, 2018 by iamdiamd

[iamdiamd]

3 hours ago, Vort said:

Why do you trust his reports?

Because I've read enough of them to know the guy isn't lying. He has pictures with Elder Costa (of the 70) when he went out to Utah, he has pictures of his SP, counselors, etc.  I invite you to find out for yourself-I encourage you to do as Elder Ballard has asked us to do and to "listen to and learn from".  I have and I have drawn my conclusions from doing so.  I encourage you to spend some time on his blog, go the the facebook pages of "Mormons Building Bridges", "Affirmation", "NorthStar", etc.  I encourage you to listen to what they are saying and to learn from what they are saying.

Others can certainly draw their own conclusions, but my conclusions from listening to and learning from is that regardless of Elder Oaks talk (which was good)-this stuff isn't stopping.  The only thing that will this community wants that will suffice for them is 100% full acceptance, meaning temple sealings.  And they are certainly making plenty of progress.

Edited October 25, 2018 by iamdiamd

[Vort]

1 minute ago, iamdiamd said:

Because I've read enough of them to know the guy isn't lying. He has pictures with Elder Costa (of the 70) when he went out to Utah, he has pictures of his SP, counselors, etc.

So he has pictures of him standing with General Authorities, and that proves that (1) he's telling the truth and (2) his interpretations of what was said are reliable?

I'm not following the logic.

[let’s roll]

10 minutes ago, iamdiamd said:

I do not use the term lightly and I most certainly do not throw it around.  The raising of a child to an adult is an extremely important process. It is most likely the single greatest act a human being will do for the rest of society-that is righteously raising the next generation.

It is an extremely wicked, and evil ideology and just demonstrates how far removed we are as a culture from God that anyone could possibly fathom that a child raised in a household with two homosexuals is anything other than evil. 

Children are sponges and they model human behavior.  If the parent swears in front of the child, the child will swear, if a parent throws and hits things the child will act out like that.  Once they become old enough as independent human beings then they can start to self-regulate their behavior and say, my parents do xyz, but that is bad so I won't do xyz.  But that takes years and years and almost inevitably anyone who has lived long enough, or who has any bit of self-reflection will almost immediately say, oh yes, I have this, this and this habit that was taught and trained to me by my parents.  

We know this, it is self-evident.  And yet either because people are blinded by society, or because they don't want to say it (and look mean), or because they absolutely have no clue (or have an agenda), they self-delude themselves into saying, yeah, yeah, that's perfectly fine for a child to be raised by two homosexuals.  Really? 

In a religion where we know that the foundation of everything is based upon a mother and a father we are taking one of the most perverted societal structures and saying, yeah, yeah that's okay that they are raised that way.  It's stunning how blinded people can be.

And this is a totally different situation than being raised by a single-parent, because their are only two ways for a child to end up being raised in a homosexual household.   Either through adoption, or because one parent went down a sinful path and the courts allowed that parent to take custody.  And either one is tremendously bad.  It absolutely is child abuse, imposed by the state, to have an innocent child raised in a wicked, perverse, sinful relationship like a homosexual relationship and then have everyone around them pretend that it's okay.  It's not okay-it will jack with their heads for the rest of their lives, they will absolutely have emotional, mental and relationship problems because of it. 

It's stunning the depths people go to so that they can avoid personal responsibility of standing up for what's morally right when the crowd is against them.  Allowing children to be adopted into or raised by (through the custody courts) homosexual partners is a great, great sin.  It absolutely offends God b/c it offends his little ones.  And anyone who defends it, should take a real hard look at their own soul. 

So since the Second Commandment requires that each of us love our brothers and sisters who are in these familial relationships you don’t want to call families (parents and children both), where do you find that love for these children of God.  I don’t sense much in your post.

[iamdiamd]

1 minute ago, Vort said:

So he has pictures of him standing with General Authorities, and that proves that (1) he's telling the truth and (2) his interpretations of what was said are reliable?

I'm not following the logic.

Yes, because again, I have read enough to know that yes while this community does lie quite a bit to get what they want-this guy in particular does not.

You can draw your own conclusions and say, no,no,no this would NEVER happen in the Church.  I have read enough to say, yeah this is actually quite likely-not widespread but likely.

[iamdiamd]

2 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

So since the Second Commandment requires that each of us love our brothers and sisters who are in these familial relationships you don’t want to call families (parents and children both), where do you find that love for these children of God.  I don’t sense much in your post.

1st Commandment is to love God and to have no other Gods before him.

I don't sense much in your post about love of God above the humanism of others.  I love God above simply telling other people pleasing words that they want to hear.  I love God enough to tell others that if they don't get their act together one day they will stand accountable before God for their own actions.  I love God's children enough to proclaim repentance to those who are living in sin.

True love isn't telling someone pleasing words.  True love is telling someone what they need to hear not what they want to hear.

Edited October 25, 2018 by iamdiamd

[lostinwater]

51 minutes ago, iamdiamd said:

 It is an extremely wicked, and evil ideology and just demonstrates how far removed we are as a culture from God that anyone could possibly fathom that a child raised in a household with two homosexuals is anything other than evil. 

So this is just a question.  i'm not looking for a fight.

But have you ever directly observed any of the people in these households?  Or talked with and asked the people how they, themselves, having had first hand experiences, feel about their situation?  

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, iamdiamd said:

1st Commandment is to love God and to have no other Gods before him.

I don't sense much in your post about love of God above the humanism of others.  I love God above simply telling other people pleasing words that they want to hear.  I love God enough to tell others that if they don't get their act together one day they will stand accountable before God for their own actions.  I love God's children enough to proclaim repentance to those who are living in sin.

True love isn't telling someone pleasing words.  True love is telling someone what they need to hear not what they want to hear.

Thanks for explaining your point of view.  I’d suggest to you that by loving all of God’s children we are demonstrating the highest form of keeping both the 1st and 2nd commandments.

I’d also suggest that loving our brothers and sisters involves much more than what, if anything, we say to them.  It includes recognizing and valuing their divine heritage, their premortal valiance, their infinite worth: all of which would engender a tenderness of heart toward each one.  It also includes forgiveness, both to those who have offended or mistreated us personally and those who engage in activities that offend God. 

Underpinned with that tenderness and forgiveness and in the context of explaining to them our belief in their divine heritage, premortal vigilance and infinite worth, I agree we can explain God’s plan of happiness to them and invite them to accept His invitation to follow that plan.

If that’s what you meant to communicate in your post, I wholeheartedly concur.

[JohnsonJones]

9 hours ago, Fether said:

I was challenging his initial notion. If you consider having homosexual parents child abuse, then you should consider in deviation in obedience by the parents child abuse as well.

 

It depends on what one defines as abuse.

Rather than the items you listed, it would probably be closer to what some would consider similar to raising a child in a single parent home, or in a life that lacks one of the two binary parental roles of either a father or a mother.  Instead, they have only a father or a mother x2. 

No child who has a parents composed of two individuals who are in a gay marriage is the biological child of both.  At most, only ONE can be their parent.  It is impossible for both to be their biological parent.

Many adopted children will want to know who their biological parent was.  If a gay couple tries to tell the child that there was no other parent, the child eventually will know that this is blatantly untrue. 

The question is, what constitutes abuse.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued the Proclamation to the Family a while ago.  It states

Quote

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners. Disability, death, or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation. Extended families should lend support when needed.

For a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints this shows the standards that they currently abide by.

If you ask others in this modern world in the West they may say it is very 1960ish in it's approach.  If we apply this stringently as a standard we could quickly find that there are many odd pairings and marriages today in our modern world that do not fit this model presented here.

What, then, constitutes abuse?

I think some items are obvious.  Beating your child, molesting them, emotionally tormenting them, breaking bones or physically hurting them, mental abuse, and others are obvious forms of abuse today.  Most would agree that this is abuse.

There are other things that are more opinion on whether it is abuse or not.  In most of these cases the children will be in homes that are composed of people that love them very much.  In most cases they do not want to hurt the children and want the best for the children.

When a Mother and Father fight in front of the children, or backstab each other...is that abuse?

When a parent watches a rather violent show with their little children or one with abundant language...is that abuse?

When parents divorce because "they don't love each other anymore" which emotionally takes it's toll on a child....is that abuse?

Can you abuse a child religiously or by acting in certain ways religiously?

If you purposely teach a child that the Bible is a myth and completely wrong...is that abuse?  Would the Lord think it is proper or that you are leading the child to a wrong path?

From a Christian viewpoint, if a child is taught to be Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist...is that abuse?

In prior decades (or sometimes centuries) all the above queries in some nation or another would be a resounding affirmative that yes, they qualify for abuse.

Today, in the West we normally do not consider it abuse.  There are many various ways people define abuse that are very subjective.

When I was a child I could go walking several miles to a friend house.  No one thought anything of it.  Today, if a child walks several blocks alone it is sometimes considered neglect and CPS is called.

I think @iamdiamd is using one of the more subjective definitions of what abuse is and it is one that some may agree with while others would not.  It definitely would qualify as abuse by some definitions from several decades ago.  It does not, in general today. 

Though there are cut and dry elements of abuse today, there are still subjective ideas behind what constitutes abuse and what does not when we get down to individuals and each person's beliefs.

I personally think that those who are in a Gay Marriage can love children that they adopt or that are theirs naturally very much.  They can want the very best for that child that they possibly could have.  Many would say a child in a loving home is far better off than a child who has no home or one where there is no love.  (and, going by subjective ideas, is a home where a child is never hurt or abused in a defined way we understand, but does not feel or is not loved...is that abuse?).  A couple in a Gay Marriage which have children in their family can be like other parents that focus on that child with love and try to help the child excel. 

I personally do not agree that those in a Gay Marriage should be able to adopt children, even if I see the benefits of it for the child.  I understand that this is strictly because of my RELIGION and the views it espouses.

Beyond that, I do not think there is a problem with it, politically, socially, or economically.  In fact, it is probably a good thing for children who are without families to be able to get a home where they are loved. 

There are times when one should ask themselves if they are trying to impress their religion upon others via law and whether this is the correct course of action.  I think forcing your religion on those who are not part of your religion is not what the US is about.  We believe in a separation of Church and State and as such, we should not try to force a Muslim, or a Buddhist, or a Hindu, or even other Christians who do not believe the way we do (or atheists, or agnostics, or any other) to be Mormons and live our beliefs.  AS long as we are free to live as we desire and to practice our religion as our hearts intend, we should also allow others to do the same.

[The Folk Prophet]

13 hours ago, Fether said:

Being raised in a homosexual home is as much child abuse as it is to raise a child without FHE, family scripture study, parents that attend the temple regularly, or parents that don’t magnify their callings.

Um...

 

[The Folk Prophet]

13 hours ago, Fether said:

I agree, I think it is idiotic to say homosexuality or any deviation from commandments (save physical, sexual or emotional abuse) is child abuse.

It's distinctly different. A similar comparison might be the parents who openly wife-swap/husband-swap as if it's normal, wholesome behavior. The deviation from the commandment isn't the "child abuse" (granted, a loaded term). It's the mental and emotional manipulation that occurs in the situation.

Calling it "child abuse" might be going too far. But it is likely incredibly harmful to the children subjected to it.

[Fether]

18 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Calling it "child abuse" might be going too far. But it is likely incredibly harmful to the children subjected to it.

This was really all I was getting at... 

[wenglund]

16 hours ago, iamdiamd said:

1st Commandment is to love God and to have no other Gods before him.

I don't sense much in your post about love of God above the humanism of others.  I love God above simply telling other people pleasing words that they want to hear.  I love God enough to tell others that if they don't get their act together one day they will stand accountable before God for their own actions.  I love God's children enough to proclaim repentance to those who are living in sin.

True love isn't telling someone pleasing words.  True love is telling someone what they need to hear not what they want to hear.

This makes perfect sense , and I agree with it in some respects and in certain contexts.

However, while believing members of the Church hopefully aren't of the world, we do live in the world, which necessitates finding amicable ways to get along and thrive with those who have differing points of view.  I think what @Jane_Doe and @NeuroTypical are wisely suggesting is that having sensitivity towards  differing points of view is part of finding ways to get along and speak to others in the language of love they understand--particularly kids. 

Said another way, if one wishes to persuade others to your point of view,  it is best to first connect with them, in part by understanding and acknowledging their current perspectives, and then respectfully reasoning with them towards a mutually beneficial end. 

Granted, most, if not all on this board not only fully understand your perspective of love as it relates to homosexual families, they likely share it.

As I understand things, the issue being raised isn't one of personal belief among board members, but ways to effectively approach those not on this board and who hold differing beliefs.

I learned this lesson by being on the receiving end of people dogmatically telling me for years that my religion wasn't Christian and that I was going to hell. Under such conditions, productive interactions were near impossible.

Just a thought.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-