More struggles with Direction from stake President

[NeuroTypical]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

If President Nelson himself were to observe a ward in operation and then instruct how corrections should be made, do you think he would be in violation of his calling?

Fair enough.  But I don't believe President Nelson would do such a thing, I think he'd work through his apostles, that would work through the area authorities.  

Things I've seen:
- High council reps advise bishoprics
- Bishops have 1:1's with SPs
- An Apostle address all the senior leadership of multiple stakes, giving advice, urging more of this and less of that, and holding a Q&A.  He didn't change anything, or tell anyone to do anything.
- Stake Finance clerks audit the heck out of me, a ward finance clerk. 
- People showing up to General Conference and yelling "opposed", directed to go meet with their Stake Presidents, who will evaluate the reasons for opposition and take appropriate action.
- Lots of other things I can find in the handbooks.

Things I've never seen:
- An area authority change policies of a bishopric, with or without the stake standing there.
- A bishop change policies in an auxiliary meeting, with or without the aux leadership standing there.
- A SP change policies for ward or stake auxiliaries (other than the Relief Society), with our without the aux leadership standing there. (Except for this thread)

 

[Vort]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

A SP change policies for ward or stake auxiliaries (other than the Relief Society), with our without the aux leadership standing there. (Except for this thread)

I agree with your post. I would add only that we're getting one view of the goings-on, and that may not be enough to definitively hang a hat on.

[Colirio]

5 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

- A SP change policies for ward or stake auxiliaries (other than the Relief Society), with our without the aux leadership standing there. (Except for this thread)

 

 

The OP clearly stated that this was a training done on the stake level, not just a ward level, in her first post. 

 

It is not out of the ordinary for a member of the stake presidency to attend and even contribute to the specific training being given to the ward auxiliaries during the stake leadership training breakout session. This could especially be true if their is an item of major concern or importance that they hope to reinforce across the stake. 

 

Likewise, the message being presented was clearly in harmony with what is taught in the handbook. 

 

I believe your accusation of a stake president being "disobedient" on these grounds is a bit extreme and  also incorrect. 

Edited October 30, 2018 by Colirio

[NightSG]

12 hours ago, Colirio said:

I believe your accusation of a stake president being "disobedient" on these grounds is a bit extreme and  also incorrect. 

The OP also stated earlier that it had previously been necessary for other leaders to go over his head, and it had come back down the chain for him to back off and stop micromanaging.  How do you figure it's not disobedient to wait a bit and start seeing how much he can get away with before that happens again? 

[Colirio]

43 minutes ago, NightSG said:

The OP also stated earlier that it had previously been necessary for other leaders to go over his head, and it had come back down the chain for him to back off and stop micromanaging.  How do you figure it's not disobedient to wait a bit and start seeing how much he can get away with before that happens again? 

 

That is a bold accusation. You are saying that he purposely is trying to get away with something he knows is contrary to the area leadership's desires? 

[NeuroTypical]

13 hours ago, Colirio said:

I believe your accusation of a stake president being "disobedient" on these grounds is a bit extreme and  also incorrect. 

 

Both are entirely possible.  It's why I said this:

[Anyway, that's how I see it.  I understand your mileage may vary.  I'm not saying I'm right - just this is what I'd be saying if I was in the OP's situation.]

Edited October 30, 2018 by NeuroTypical

[Guest Scott]

Quote

Last night at a stake auxiliary training and leadership conference he came into the Young Women break out session and said, " We have been told in the scriptures and by our church leaders to "not go beyond the mark".  I looked that up on LDS.org and found a few references. Didn't read the whole conference talks or whatever to find the exact quote but the gist I came away with was that we are to keep things simple and forgo all the elaborate, showy stuff we (especially women) get caught up in as we serve in our callings. ( I think this is what some women just do by nature in and out of the Church. We are prone to decorate and entertain by nature. )   But our stake president has interpreted it differently.  He thinks it means we should NOT be doing anything at all beyond enriching our knowledge and "relationship" with our Savior. So last night (2nd time I've heard him say this in the last month) he said that ALL our mutual activities should be centered around Christ.  This isn't a bad thing except , I quote, " all these things that we keep doing like having spa nights and playing board games are a waste of time. They are going beyond the mark of learning about Christ." OK this kind of jars me because-1)  I think he's interpreting this saying in his own way and  2) I feel hes' really out of touch with what the youth, and especially the young women need.  

Our ward (I'm not sure about the Stake) is the same way.

For example, there are no Father Son Campouts or Ward Campouts anymore because the Bishop thought it wasn't spiritual.  We used to take the kids out to eat (Golden Corral or Taco Bell) after going to the temple as well (the temple is a 125 mile drive each way;  which makes it a very long day), but the Bishop put an end to that too and said they had to pack their own lunch because stopping to eat was a distraction from the spirit.  

I have to admit that I miss those old activities, but we recently got a new bishop, so things may or may not change.  I guess you just have to support the bishop in these things, even if you don't agree with it.

The only exception would be that if a bishop supported an activity that was completely against Church policy.  That has happened a few times when I was in the Bishopric, but the Bishop did listed to my counsel and change the activity.  

Edited October 30, 2018 by Scott

[Luke]

From everything described I am more sympathetic to the Stake President.  My wife is YW president in our ward and is a bit fed up with having to entertain the girls.  When they organize service activities a couple show up.  When it is a pool party or social event they come in droves. All the girls are slacking on personal progress.  Seems like the youth don't "get" what being a member of Christ's Church really means...just another social club for some of them.  

[carlimac]

28 minutes ago, Luke said:

From everything described I am more sympathetic to the Stake President.  My wife is YW president in our ward and is a bit fed up with having to entertain the girls.  When they organize service activities a couple show up.  When it is a pool party or social event they come in droves. All the girls are slacking on personal progress.  Seems like the youth don't "get" what being a member of Christ's Church really means...just another social club for some of them.  

I think you have to look at each group individually. My daughter's ward is the same as yours. Very poor morale. Kids just don't participate in anything if it isn't fun. But our ward is really amazing. These kids are very active and supportive of each other. Every activity is well attended. Service projects bring them out in droves because they just love to be together no matter what the activity is. Personal progress was slacking but is going well now with lots of motivation to  finish. We just had two finish with a couple more almost done. 

At this stake training, I felt as if we were talked down to, and that he really doesn't relate to the youth very well. Again...it's this particular man's personality informed by his cultural upbringing which was one of extreme discipline. He is very strict and his delivery is pretty awful. 

It could be that there are some wards in our stake that are struggling more than ours is. After talking with others in our ward, I'm backing off of feeling offended, and realizing that I don't have to be personally offended by him. He's may be reacting to feeling like his time is almost over as SP. 

[NightSG]

On 10/30/2018 at 9:09 AM, Colirio said:

 

That is a bold accusation. You are saying that he purposely is trying to get away with something he knows is contrary to the area leadership's desires? 

If he was told to back off and stick to stake affairs as the OP said, then how do you figure dictating ward activities exactly as he was told not to isn't being disobedient?  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, NightSG said:

If he was told to back off and stick to stake affairs as the OP said, then how do you figure dictating ward activities exactly as he was told not to isn't being disobedient?  

I agree.  Direct disobedience appears to be... direct disobedience.

[askandanswer]

On 10/27/2018 at 3:06 AM, carlimac said:

Last night at a stake auxiliary training and leadership conference he came into the Young Women break out session and said, " We have been told in the scriptures and by our church leaders to "not go beyond the mark".  I looked that up on LDS.org and found a few references. Didn't read the whole conference talks or whatever to find the exact quote but the gist I came away with was that we are to keep things simple and forgo all the elaborate, showy stuff we (especially women) get caught up in as we serve in our callings. ( I think this is what some women just do by nature in and out of the Church. We are prone to decorate and entertain by nature. )   But our stake president has interpreted it differently.  He thinks it means we should NOT be doing anything at all beyond enriching our knowledge and "relationship" with our Savior. So last night (2nd time I've heard him say this in the last month) he said that ALL our mutual activities should be centered around Christ.  This isn't a bad thing except , I quote, " all these things that we keep doing like having spa nights and playing board games are a waste of time. They are going beyond the mark of learning about Christ." 

It's not hard to find scriptures to support almost any position you care to take or oppose any position someone else takes. If I was inclined to push back against this position I would be inclined to rely on Doctrine and Covenants 136:28  If thou art merry, praise the Lord with singing, with music, with dancing, and with a prayer of praise and thanksgiving.

[NightSG]

3 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

It's not hard to find scriptures to support almost any position you care to take or oppose any position someone else takes. If I was inclined to push back against this position I would be inclined to rely on Doctrine and Covenants 136:28  If thou art merry, praise the Lord with singing, with music, with dancing, and with a prayer of praise and thanksgiving.

Then I'd be equally inclined to point out the lack of dancing in Sacrament Meeting. 

[askandanswer]

I expect we'll hear something about a change to the Sacrament Meeting format in next General Conference. 

[Vort]

8 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I expect we'll hear something about a change to the Sacrament Meeting format in next General Conference. 

So that might solve NightSG's dancing problem.

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

So that might solve NightSG's dancing problem.

[Colirio]

2 hours ago, NightSG said:

If he was told to back off and stick to stake affairs as the OP said, then how do you figure dictating ward activities exactly as he was told not to isn't being disobedient?  

 

You should reread the OP's first post. 

 

This was a stake leadership training being given at a stake level. That falls clearly within the stake president's stewardship to give whatever training he feels would be best for the members/leaders of the stake. 

 

If he feels that multiple wards are going "beyond the mark" with the planning of their activities, then it falls within his stewardship to warn and encourage those who are leaders/advisors in the wards. 

 

Does he have the the ability to receive revelation for the stake to which he is called to preside? 

 

It sounds like the time when he was previously "warned" was due to actually attempting to plan the program for a particular ward's primary. 

[askandanswer]

On 10/30/2018 at 6:35 AM, Vort said:

If President Nelson himself were to observe a ward in operation and then instruct how corrections should be made, do you think he would be in violation of his calling?

And this is exactly what he did for many years although in a different type of ward 

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/04/the-heart-of-a-prophet?lang=eng

Most interesting was his description of President Nelson’s teaching style, which, he said, brought with it a large measure of notoriety. He explained that much of the teaching of heart surgery residents was conducted in the operating room. There, residents observed and performed surgery under faculty supervision, as a laboratory classroom. He shared that the operating room environment under certain faculty surgeons was chaotic, competitive, pressure filled, and even ego driven. This man described it as a difficult environment, sometimes even demeaning. As a result, resident surgeons even felt their careers were often on the line.

He then explained the unique environment found in President Nelson’s operating room. It was peaceful, calm, and dignified. Residents were treated with deep respect. However, following the demonstration of a procedure, Dr. Nelson expected the highest standard of performance from each of the residents. This man further described how the best patient outcomes and the best surgeons came out of Dr. Nelson’s operating room.

[Guest Scott]

Quote

I apologize if I missed this, but have you tried meeting with the SP and explaining your concerns? I believe in obeying and sustaining priesthood leaders, but they are mortal and sometimes make mistakes, even with good intentions.

I agree with this, but it has to be done in the right way.  It may not be that you are right and he is wrong or vice versa.

Some here may disagree, but I don't think that sustaining and supporting our leaders means that we can't ask questions or that we can't discuss issues such as the above.

For example, it probably wouldn't be a good idea to go around telling the ward that you think the Stake President is a dummy and doesn't have a clue or something similar.  That would be the wrong way to go about things.

Personally, I don't see a problem with simply talking to the Stake President about the matter.  You could ask simply sit down with him and tell him your viewpoint without being confrontational or disagreeable.

For example, just simply (in a kind manner) tell him how much your daughters enjoyed certain activities and tell him that it helps them bond with other young women and then ask him for clarifications on his viewpoint and for suggestions.  Don't tell him that he is wrong (he may not be); just tell him how much the young women enjoy certain activities and how it brings them closer together.

One solution I see is that the Young Women can still do those activities, even if the Stake President didn't want to do them as an official ward activity.  There is no reason why the young women can't get together and have a spa night as friends, rather than make it an official church activity.  If the young women enjoy those activities so much, they can still do them, they just couldn't do them on young women's nights.  

Quote

NO I haven't met with him. Too scared to do that.

Why?   Do you think he is going to excommunicate you or make you talk two hours in Stake Conference just for asking to discuss a few things with him?  I doubt the Stake President made any announcements or suggestions to be confrontational or to condemn anyone.  I wouldn't know, but he may enjoy having  some conversations with ward members and may enjoy input and suggestion.   When I have been in certain "higher" callings, suggestions and input were always welcomed because it helped relieve some of the stress of having to make all the decisions myself or with a few counselors.  Suggestions from ward members were always welcome.   This is different than gossip, complaining, and criticizing.  

[Sunday21]

On 11/1/2018 at 1:32 PM, askandanswer said:

I expect we'll hear something about a change to the Sacrament Meeting format in next General Conference. 

Can we open a book? 

Possible options:

1) All talks closely follow General Conference Talk.

2) .?

[askandanswer]

4 hours ago, Sunday21 said:

Can we open a book? 

Indeed we should - perhaps the Book of Mormon

[Sunday21]

5 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Indeed we should - perhaps the Book of Mormon

Good one! 

[Tyme]

I use too be overly critical of my local church leadership too. Now I realize they're unpaid volunteers who donate a lot of time to the church. Looking back it really makes me dismiss any wrongdoings or mistakes. In reality the bishop and stake president were actually very very good. I don't think it was a mistake that the first Sunday I went to church in a family ward the stake and I had to sustain him a new Bishop. It wasn't a mistake that we both entered each other's life at that precise moment. I learned a lot from him and I'm sure he learned a thing or two about patience. God works in mysterious ways to give us trials(I know all trials are blessings)and blessings.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Tyme
I KNOW

[BJ64]

On 10/26/2018 at 12:14 PM, scottyg said:

I agree. I do feel that brethren should be clean shaven to model the church leadership. However, if they choose not to do so they have that choice. Recommends should be limited to the questions/requirements provided, and those questions/requirements only...nothing should be added.

Several members of bishoprics and other leadership callings in our stake have beards. I don’t think anyone thinks anything of it. Beards are very common these days. 

[askandanswer]

On 10/27/2018 at 3:06 AM, carlimac said:

Last night at a stake auxiliary training and leadership conference he came into the Young Women break out session and said, " We have been told in the scriptures and by our church leaders to not go beyond the mark."

What is the difference  between going beyond the mark and going the extra mile?