Vort

The next logical step

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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Tyme, I'm pro gay marriage, pro gay adoption, and pro transgender rights. I'd NEVER say that anyone who opposes me is "heartless", "ignorant" or "Not following the spirit". You are way off base. 

It was off base accusing people of not following the spirit. I just know what the spirit is telling me.

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8 minutes ago, Tyme said:

That’s why I prefaced it by saying please don’t take offense. I knew it was harsh. It’s just I couldn’t think of any other way to say it. I evidently caused hurt and offense. I’m sorry for that.

And that is you being ignorant and lacking in compassion, empathy and starting a fight.

By your own words I am heartless, lacking in spirit, and ignorant.  You didn't seek to understand me, or my position, or why. You labeled me and dismissed me thinking you know all you need to know.  Tactics you would find abhorrent if I were gay, but totally acceptable since I am not.  And they have a word for that... It is hypocrite

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58 minutes ago, Tyme said:

An example is Elder Oaks, his wife died(rip) in 1998 and he was remarried in 2000. He could only last two years without a spouse. Imagine having to go your whole life with out an SO.

Not a single person here is preventing a gay person from marriage.  Your error is in the position that for homosexuals, homosexual marriage is the one and only option because of your erroneous position that Sex is the foundation of Love.

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5 minutes ago, MormonGator said:

@Tyme, I'm pro gay marriage, pro gay adoption, and pro transgender rights. I'd NEVER say that anyone who opposes me is "heartless", "ignorant" or "Not following the spirit". You are way off base. 

It was off base accusing people of not following the spirit. I just know what the spirit is telling me.

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1 hour ago, Tyme said:

That’s why I prefaced it by saying please don’t take offense. I knew it was harsh. It’s just I couldn’t think of any other way to say it. I evidently caused hurt and offense. I’m sorry for that.

If one has to preface their comment by saying that...it probably shouldn't be said.

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1 hour ago, estradling75 said:

And that is you being ignorant and lacking in compassion, empathy and starting a fight.

By your own words I am heartless, lacking in spirit, and ignorant.  You didn't seek to understand me, or my position, or why. You labeled me and dismissed me thinking you know all you need to know.  Tactics you would find abhorrent if I were gay, but totally acceptable since I am not.  And they have a word for that... It is hypocrite

You need to watch Frozen again. “Let it go”

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3 minutes ago, Tyme said:

You need to watch Frozen again. “Let it go”

Remember these words when others dismiss you as a fool and an idiot, when you are derided and mocked. Just let it go.

The hypocrisy is absolutely stifling.

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2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Remember these words when others dismiss you as a fool and an idiot, when you are derided and mocked. Just let it go.

The hypocrisy is absolutely stifling.

Well you know what the Book of Mormon says about the big spacious building... I’ll just hold on to the iron rod.

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2 minutes ago, Vort said:

Remember these words when others dismiss you as a fool and an idiot, when you are derided and mocked. Just let it go.

The hypocrisy is absolutely stifling.

Indeed his total lack of compassion and charity toward one he has personally wronged and harmed is telling...

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2 minutes ago, Tyme said:

Well you know what the Book of Mormon says about the big spacious building... I’ll just hold on to the iron rod.

Good luck with that.

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2 hours ago, Tyme said:

It was off base accusing people of not following the spirit. I just know what the spirit is telling me.

Did you ever think that you might be being lead by the wrong spirit?

I'm genuinely asking with sincerity.  We know that Lucifer can appear as an angel of light.  We know he has the ability to influence people to do the wrong thing.  Have you ever considered that the spirit you are listening to is the wrong spirit and that it's not the Spirit of God?

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8 hours ago, boxer said:

Did you ever think that you might be being lead by the wrong spirit?

I'm genuinely asking with sincerity.  We know that Lucifer can appear as an angel of light.  We know he has the ability to influence people to do the wrong thing.  Have you ever considered that the spirit you are listening to is the wrong spirit and that it's not the Spirit of God?

I mean it’s possible. I’ve not exactly been guided by the spirit one way or the other. I just feel deep in my heart that there is nothing wrong with gays and that they’ll be allowed full fellowship eventually. It’s something I can’t just deny. If I tell my bishop I think otherwise that would be a lie. I’m tryin to re-enter the church as sincerely as possible. I keep getting this recurring thought, “your heart is in the right place you’ll be blessed.” Like I said, I can’t just deny something I feel deeply about.

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@Tyme

I found an interesting article that looks at what the bible teaches about homosexuality. I know you've been continually asking for bible verses that say one way or the other. I found this to be fairly well written and certainly holding integrity to the intent of the biblical messaging on the topic and not disengenuously trying to reframe biblical passages into our culture of calling evil good and good evil.

https://www.pccmonroe.org/what-the-bible-really-says-about-homosexuality.html

As for disregarding any prophetic teaching on homosexuality as something that will one day fade away like the priesthood ban, it really is important to understand that homosexuality has always been condemned in every dispensation and has never been mentioned as something that will change. However, just as the Law of Moses was prophesied to return to a higher law one day and the gospel in general became available to gentiles and priesthood become available to more than just the levites, the priesthood ban in this dispensation was always understood to be temporary. I will reiterate that no where in the scriptures or teachings of modern prophets has there ever been anything suggesting that one day what God has warned against as sin will one day be acceptable. This is like Zeezrom trying to trick people by asking Alma and Amulek if God will save people "in" their sins - He won't, it is contrary to justice, but He will save us "from" our sins if we allow Him to change us. This salvation from sin is not only in the sense of being redeemed in the afterlife, but actually being strengthened against sins in this life. The Lord promises that, "weak things will become strong..."

This doesn't necessarily mean someone struggling with same sex attraction will no longer have same sex attraction, but it may for some people. I would posit that most likely people will be strengthened to resist acting on the temptation and as they let virtue garnish their thoughts unceasingly they stop having lustful thoughts and find great joy in other areas of life. Believe it or not there is much more in life to find happiness from than merely sexual satisfaction.

 

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Guest

Go to about the 45 second mark.

10 hours ago, scottyg said:

If one has to preface their comment by saying that...it probably shouldn't be said.

Edited by Guest

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So this is not an attempt to tell people how to interpret things or to make a case for anything.  But i'd really suggest that before anyone quotes a bible passage to prove a point, that they ask themselves:

1.  Which of the Bible's 3 dozen or so known and unknown authors wrote it?

2.  Was the person who experienced it the person who wrote about it?  

3.  How long after it occurred was it written about?  

4.  Who has copied it?

5.  Who decided it should be included in the canon?

6.  Who translated it into the language you are reading it in? (Recommend reading the Greek or the Hebrew).  

And then just remember that for much of the Bible, lifting a verse would be like lifting half a sentence from an unknown someone's personal journal/letters, that lived thousands of years ago, has been copied dozens of times, and then translated from an ancient language by someone who brought all sorts of personal biases to the interpretation, into a form that barely beat out the hundreds of other similar texts that came awfully close to making into the canon.

i mean, because if we're lifting verses, we may as well lift the gems like Psalms 137:9, too.

i get that people give credence to more modern day sources, and if you do that, that's fine.  That's not really something that can be objectively argued for, or against.  But at least for the Bible, i think it's worth the time to think about things like this.

And i've got to give credit to @marge for all the links.  She is nothing short of a Biblical Scholar - though i don't want to infer that she agrees with anything i say or believe.

Edited by lostinwater

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24 minutes ago, lostinwater said:

So this is not an attempt to tell people how to interpret things or to make a case for anything.  But i'd really suggest that before anyone quotes a bible passage to prove a point, that they ask themselves:

1.  Which of the Bible's 3 dozen or so known and unknown authors wrote it?

2.  Was the person who experienced it the person who wrote about it?  

3.  How long after it occurred was it written about?  

4.  Who has copied it?

5.  Who decided it should be included in the canon?

6.  Who translated it into the language you are reading it in? (Recommend reading the Greek or the Hebrew).  

And then just remember that for much of the Bible, lifting a verse would be like lifting half a sentence from an unknown someone's personal journal/letters, that lived thousands of years ago, has been copied dozens of times, and then translated from an ancient language by someone who brought all sorts of personal biases to the interpretation, into a form that barely beat out the hundreds of other similar texts that came awfully close to making into the canon.

i mean, because if we're lifting verses, we may as well lift the gems like Psalms 137:9, too.

i get that people give credence to more modern day sources, and if you do that, that's fine.  That's not really something that can or should be be argued against.  But at least for the Bible, i think it's worth the time to think about things like this.

And i've got to give credit to @marge for all the links.  She is nothing short of a Biblical Scholar - though i don't want to infer that she agrees with anything i say or believe.

I see you're going down a different road -- and this is fine  -- for a different discussion.  If we were talking about history or archaeology regarding the Bible text we have before us, that would indeed be a great list to follow.  But the effect vis-a-vis this thread is somewhat self-defeating or perhaps irrelevant.  

Before I go on.  I'm NOT saying the following to be critical of you, but rather to make clear to all participants what has happened throughout this thread.

We've made several assumptions in our discussion.

1) Scriptures are a rubric by which to measure the validity of our personal interpretations, impressions, and beliefs.  And inasmuch as the scriptures are not infallible (translations, transcriptions, missing information, etc.) we have multiple books of scripture which talk of the same topics to give us a broader picture and more context about a topic from different perspectives and slightly different wording.  I don't believe the different wording is necessarily evidence of an error.  It is much more often a different way of saying the same thing to help us undstand which interpretation of the written words is more accurate.  The correct interpretation is the one that fits the most different instances of the same idea in scripture.

2) As Latter-day Saints, we have prophets who guide us in the interpretation thereof and provide additional revelation from God.  And this is a second witness to the same things the scriptures say. 

3) Insasmuch as we are able to feel the Holy Ghost, we have a third witness for the same things that items #1 and #2 provide.

If there is disagreement between these three, we need to accept that we are in an uncertain place.  But when all three agree perfectly, then we are in a more certain place.

If anyone does not agree about these three bases of epistemology, then we're simply not going to see eye-to-eye about religious beliefs. 

If the purpose of your post is to declare that the Bible may be in error about this or that, for whatever reason, these other methods are Gods' way of dealing with that.  To trust in our own reason and man's research abilities (which appears to be what your list proposes) is to declare that revelation is dead and that we will determine the truth of God each individually and have the dogmatic chaos which runs amok throughout Christianity -- and is apparently on bright display on this thread. 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a living prophet of God.  If you don't believe that, we're not going to see eye-to-eye.  

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a collection of scriptures beyond the Bible which contain all the canonical works which God has revealed up to this time.  Used in conjunction with each other, the existing weaknesses of the Bible's current text can be remedied by cross-referencing similar scriptures or similar topics throughout.  If you don't believe in the same canon of scripture, we're not going to see eye-to-eye.

Latter-day Saints believe in personal revelation.  But we also believe that this is only one leg of the tripod.  Scriptures, and prophets are required for the tripod to stand.  If you don't have the same legs of the tripod, we're not going to see eye-to-eye.

Edited by Guest

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4 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Latter-day Saints believe in personal revelation.  But we also believe that this is only one leg of the tripod.  Scriptures, and prophets are required for the tripod to stand.  If you don't have the same legs of the tripod, we're not going to see eye-to-eye.

Thanks @Carborendum

So this really isn't about trying to make a case for my interpretation of anything.  i guess it's just my response to how i see the Bible being quoted (not anyone here specifically - though i've certainly been guilty of doing this in the past).  And those points are just my attempt to provide a take-it-or-leave-it recommendation to look at the genesis and development of what is being quoted.  

If anything, this has been prompted by my own investigation and slap-across-the-face kind of surprise findings.  i've spent most of my life having absolutely no idea on any of the points above.  And that to me seemed almost mind-bendingly ironic given the amount of credence i associated with it.

Anyways, i hope this wasn't take in the wrong light.  

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9 hours ago, Tyme said:

I mean it’s possible. I’ve not exactly been guided by the spirit one way or the other. I just feel deep in my heart that there is nothing wrong with gays and that they’ll be allowed full fellowship eventually. It’s something I can’t just deny. If I tell my bishop I think otherwise that would be a lie. I’m tryin to re-enter the church as sincerely as possible. I keep getting this recurring thought, “your heart is in the right place you’ll be blessed.” Like I said, I can’t just deny something I feel deeply about.

I think you've hit on a really interesting aspect and I appreciate your openness.  I hope that we can continue to have a dialog even if it might get uncomfortable.

I think, if I may, pull out a couple of points from your comment.  The first is that you freely admit that you've not been guided by the spirit on this one way or the other, yet your current belief on homosexuals is that deep in your heart there is nothing wrong.  That's a very interesting juxtaposition.  Does this mean that everything you feel deep in your heart is from God, even if you aren't guided by the Spirit on it? How do you know that your current belief deep in your heart is from God?  Why do you believe deep in your heart nothing is wrong with it? And if you were wrong and God told you you were wrong, how would you know He was telling you you were wrong? A couple of other personal questions (maybe you don't have to answer them, but for thought), How old are you (millenial, boomer, etc.)?  When and how did you come to believe deep in your heart about this issue? Was it a friend, a teacher, popular opinion, etc?

Edited by boxer

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5 hours ago, lostinwater said:

Thanks @Carborendum

So this really isn't about trying to make a case for my interpretation of anything.

Well you bring up a very interesting point of interpretation of Scripture.  Man has been doing that for centuries.  In fact that is how all branches of Christianity has come about-disagreement about the meaning and interpretation of Scripture.  Which leads to another interesting point, generally speaking for almost 200 years, Saints have generally interpreted the body of the Scriptures in the same way. 

What happens when we don't? What happens when we get to the point that we can't even agree on what the basic interpretation of what homosexuality is as it is condemned in the Bible?

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26 minutes ago, boxer said:

I think you've hit on a really interesting aspect and I appreciate your openness.  I hope that we can continue to have a dialog even if it might get uncomfortable.

I think, if I may, pull out a couple of points from your comment.  The first is that you freely admit that you've not been guided by the spirit on this one way or the other, yet your current belief on homosexuals is that deep in your heart there is nothing wrong.  That's a very interesting juxtaposition.  Does this mean that everything you feel deep in your heart is from God, even if you aren't guided by the Spirit on it? How do you know that your current belief deep in your heart is from God?  Why do you believe deep in your heart nothing is wrong with it? And if you were wrong and God told you you were wrong, how would you know He was telling you you were wrong? A couple of other personal questions (maybe you don't have to answer them, but for thought), How old are you (millenial, boomer, etc.)?  When and how did you come to believe deep in your heart about this issue? Was it a friend, a teacher, popular opinion, etc?

It’s like abortion. I feel deep in my heart that’s wrong. Yet, I haven’t received a firm answer from the spirit.

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1 hour ago, Tyme said:

It’s like abortion. I feel deep in my heart that’s wrong. Yet, I haven’t received a firm answer from the spirit.

That doesn't answer the question.  There is a specific reason why you feel the way you do; you need to articulate that reason why-even if it is uncomfortable to articulate.  The reason being is that in the actual articulation of that feeling you will discover truths, eternal truths and truths about yourself.

Feelings don't just occur out of thin air like magic.  There is a process that goes into why we feel the things we do; the more we can articulate the actual reasons and processes behind our feelings the more we can understand them, control them, master them, find errors in our feelings and thought processes.

I have very strong feelings on many different subjects, I feel deep in my heart about many things that are wrong-yet I am able to articulate and put pen to paper to explain why I feel the way I feel.  Being introspective and really analyzing why you feel the way you do is the path of self-discovery.

I would encourage you to think deeply about the questions I've asked. I'm certainly willing to engage more in a conversation-yet the conversation will go no where if your response is simply "I feel deep in my heart".  I'm more than willing to explain to you the reasons why I feel deeply in my heart the complete opposite to you on this subject, but unless you are willing to be introspective about your own reasons as to why you feel deeply in your heart, the conversation will go nowhere.

Edited by boxer

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On 11/16/2018 at 10:09 AM, Vort said:

Perdition means "lost". Yes, those who embrace homosexuality, and especially those who deny the truths of the gospel of Jesus Christ in order to embrace homosexuality and the homosexual agenda, are indeed lost. They will remain lost forever, until they give up their sin, put off their filth, humble themselves, and come unto Jesus.

"put off their filth"

This is a good time to remind everybody that just because something is gross and abhorrent to your senses doesn't make it wrong.

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8 minutes ago, Tyme said:

"put off their filth"

This is a good time to remind everybody that just because something is gross and abhorrent to your senses doesn't make it wrong.

This is also a good time to remind you that just because something is sweet and pleasant and fluffy to your senses doesn't make it right.

Wrong is Wrong.  Right is Right.  Our job as followers of Christ is to know the difference according to Christ's teachings.

Edited by anatess2

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6 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This is also a good time to remind you that just because something is sweet and pleasant and fluffy to your senses doesn't make it right.

Wrong is Wrong.  Right is Right.  Our job as followers of Christ is to know the difference according to Christ's teachings.

Do you guys think that the church's position on same-sex issues will stop the rough stone from rolling? My generation mostly supports gays unconditionally. The next generation is even more fervent in support of gays. That includes a good percentage of church youth.

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