Grunt

Faithful vs Less Faithful

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1 hour ago, Iggy said:

The Devil's Advocate has NO place under the Lord's roof here in any of His houses.

Well, actually, there's a lot of value to Devil's Advocacy................. :D

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On 12/2/2018 at 9:20 PM, Grunt said:

Then we have members of the Church who aren't active, challenge doctrine, are openly vocal in their opposition of church leaders at times, yet post as though they are authorities on topics of doctrine, often with misleading information.  At times they dance around what I consider apostasy.

This last group is what frustrates me.  I have a hard enough time as a new member absorbing doctrine and culture.  Some of my original understandings, that I received from this type of poster, has turned out to be quite false.   It's concerning and detracts from my spiritual growth.  Sadly, I'm sure that makes some of them happy.  

As we've seemed to bump heads ever since I joined this website, I suspect you may consider me in the last category you describe of being an apostate member.

First of all, let me say sorry for any derailment I may have been to your own spiritual journey and progress.  I never intend for anything I post to be negative.  You can question my sincerity when I say it, as you have questioned my motives behind what I've posted from the get go, but nonetheless, I'm sorry if that's the case.

You've been an exceptional convert to the Church, and I think your faithfulness and commitment to the Church is an good example to all of us to follow, especially me. When I private messaged you earlier congratulating you on your baptism, I meant that sincerely. The Church would be better off if all it's members shared the same zeal you have for the gospel. 

As far as what I post, if you don't find something I post to be positive or edifying or even not of interest to you, just ignore it. Just move me into your category of those you ignore if it bothers you that much. Personally speaking, I've never wanted to be at odds with you, but one of my biggest issues with you and a select few others on this website is how disagreements are addressed.

If you don't like someone else's opinion or the way they expresses an idea or a thought, don't question that person's faith or motives.  Address the disagreement for what it is.  Don't harp on how apostate you think someone is just because they have different opinions than you.  Not everyone is a perfect, cookie-cut member of the Church.  And really it's not your place to judge the faith of someone else, especially when they've never said anything derogatory about the church.  You've accused me of being an apostate, not supporting church leaders, and stating that it's my opinion people are being brainwashed with the Book of Mormon.  I've never said any of those things. I never have spoken or written one word with malicious intent against the Church.

I don't care if you disagree with something I posted, but don't question my faith or motives. You don't know me. And last time I checked Bishop Vort was the imaginary appointed bishop of this website.

At the heart of everything I post is my support for the Church, or I'm simply addressing a topic of interest that shouldn't have any bearing one way or another. Deeper gospel topics interest me. Mormon culture interests me. Philosophical discussions interest me. 

If you want to be in an online forum where only perfect, cookie-cut members of the Church participate, you might have better luck creating your own. Last time I checked everyone on this website is an individual with unique opinions and varying levels of faith, most of whom I have respectful relationships with.

I would like to have respectful communication with you too if you can relax the judgmental stuff.

Edited by clbent04

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1 hour ago, Grunt said:

Thanks.  I wish more people would stand up and call out those who act as you describe.  @Vort does a great job and I respect him for it.  

The challenge, of course, is that it's very, very easy to slip into wrong behavior whilst calling out wrong behavior.

I'm not entirely convinced that standing up and calling someone out publicly in Sunday School doesn't cross that line. (Of course, I wasn't there...so....???)

But...yeah...I totally agree that there are too few who are willing to stand up for truth. Even then, the how of the matter gets complicated.

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5 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

As we've seemed to bump heads ever since I joined this website, I suspect you may consider me in the last category you describe of being an apostate member.

First of all, let me say sorry for any derailment I may have been to your own spiritual journey and progress.  I never intend for anything I post to be negative.  You can question my sincerity when I say it, as you have questioned my motives behind what I've posted from the get go, but nonetheless, I'm sorry if that's the case.

You've been an exceptional convert to the Church, and I think your faithfulness and commitment to the Church is an good example to all of us to follow, especially me. When I private messaged you earlier congratulating you on your baptism, I meant that sincerely. The Church would be better off if all it's members shared the same zeal you have for the gospel. 

As far as what I post, if you don't find something I post to be positive or edifying or even not of interest to you, just ignore it. Just move me into your category of those you ignore if it bothers you that much. Personally speaking, I've never wanted to be at odds with you, but one of my biggest issues with you and a select few others on this website is how disagreements are addressed.

If you don't like someone else's opinion or the way they expresses an idea or a thought, don't question that person's faith or motives.  Address the disagreement for what it is.  Don't harp on how apostate you think someone is just because they have different opinions than you.  Not everyone is a perfect, cookie-cut member of the Church.  And really it's not your place to judge the faith of someone else, especially when they've never said anything derogatory about the church.  You've accused me of being an apostate, not supporting church leaders, and stating that it's my opinion people are being brainwashed with the Book of Mormon.  I've never said any of those things. I never have spoken or written one word with malicious intent against the Church.

I don't care if you disagree with something I posted, but don't question my faith or motives. You don't know me. And last time I checked Bishop Vort was the imaginarilly appointed bishop of this website.

At the heart of everything I post is my support for the Church, or I'm simply addressing a topic of interest that shouldn't have any bearing one way or another. Deeper gospel topics interest me. Mormon culture interests me. Philosophical discussions interest me. 

If you want to be in an online forum where only perfect, cookie-cut members of the Church participate, you might have better luck creating your own. Last time I checked everyone on this website is an individual with unique opinions and varying levels of faith, most of whom I have respectful relationships with.

I would like to have respectful communication with you too if you can relax the judgmental stuff.

To be honest, I'd rather you just avoid my threads.  I don't need to question your faith.  You've been pretty open about it.  However, that's your business, not mine.

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14 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The challenge, of course, is that it's very, very easy to slip into wrong behavior whilst calling out wrong behavior.

I'm not entirely convinced that standing up and calling someone out publicly in Sunday School doesn't cross that line. (Of course, I wasn't there...so....???)

But...yeah...I totally agree that there are too few who are willing to stand up for truth. Even then, the how of the matter gets complicated.

Thanks for pointing that out.  I'm frequently guilty of that.  I need that reminder.

Edited by Grunt

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2 hours ago, Iggy said:

Yes, the trolls are awful, they come out more frequently during school holidays. High School, as well as College/University.

 I guess we'd better prepare for Christmas break.

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43 minutes ago, Grunt said:
50 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

The challenge, of course, is that it's very, very easy to slip into wrong behavior whilst calling out wrong behavior.

I'm not entirely convinced that standing up and calling someone out publicly in Sunday School doesn't cross that line. (Of course, I wasn't there...so....???)

But...yeah...I totally agree that there are too few who are willing to stand up for truth. Even then, the how of the matter gets complicated.

Thanks for pointing that out.  I'm frequently guilty of that.

I was trying to word this the right way.  TFP did a good job.  I was thinking of Jesus throwing out the money changers from the temple.  But his anger was nothing like what we think of when we're angry (or at least when I'm angry).

Quote

To be angry is easy.  To be angry at the right time, in the right way, and for the right reason, this is difficult. 

So true for me.  This is why that on this point in my journey, I'm trying to steer clear of those areas of conflict.  As TFP says, it is too easy for me to become guilty of the same misbehavior that I'm accusing others of.

Maybe at some point in the future, I'll have more control of myself to where I can appropriately show the righteous indignation that is appropriate for such encounters.  But I'm not there yet.  And it would not show Christlike attributes if I lost myself at that point. 

Jesus was angry at the right time, in the right way, for the right reason.  I'm still working on it.

Edited by Carborendum

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16 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

I was trying to word this the right way.  TFP did a good job.  I was thinking of Jesus throwing out the money changers from the temple.  But his anger was nothing like what we think of when we're angry (or at least when I'm angry).

So true for me.  This is why that on this point in my journey, I'm trying to steer clear of those areas of conflict.  As TFP says, it is too easy for me to become guilty of the same misbehavior that I'm accusing others of.

Maybe at some point in the future, I'll have more control of myself to where I can appropriately show the righteous indignation that is appropriate for such encounters.  But I'm not there yet.  And it would not show Christlike attributes if I lost myself at that point. 

Jesus was angry and the right time, in the right way, for the right reason.  I'm still working on it.

Then what is to be done?  You can see this forum has examples of people whose faith is polluted and are sharing it openly.  Is there not an obligation to call it out and attempt to correct false information as it appears?  At times, to discuss it is to give it legitimacy.  I absolutely understand why it's tolerated here from nonmembers.  They don't represent the faith and can be debated.  However, members DO have the appearance of representing the faith.  I had a few members here reach out to me via PM and build trust.  I learn down the road they really shouldn't be the examples I should be following.  This can be damaging to someone looking for answers.

Edited by Grunt

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39 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Then what is to be done?  You can see this forum as an example of people whose faith is polluted and are sharing it openly.

This is a good question.

Quote

Is there not an obligation to call it out and attempt to correct false information as it appears?  

I believe so.  And at times, I can do so in a reasoned - Spirit filled way.  Hopefully, more and more often as I continue in my development.

Quote

At times, to discuss it is to give it legitimacy.  I absolutely understand why it's tolerated here from nonmembers.  They don't represent the faith and can be debated.  However, members DO have the appearance of representing the faith.

This is a good point.  I had wondered some of the same things myself, when I first came to this board.  I noticed people doing this.  What I've come to understand is that if such people do lack sincerity, they will eventually out themselves.  This is how the wheats and tares work.

Quote

 I had a few members here reach out to me via PM and build trust.  I learn down the road they really shouldn't be the examples I should be following.  

It seems you figured it out eventually.  Think about why you were able to do that.  You kept your eye single to the Glory of God.  You stood in holy places.  You kept yourself on the straight and narrow.  You listened to the Spirit.  That is really the source of the gift of discernment.

Quote

This can be damaging to someone looking for answers.

And that is a danger in life.  The parable of the seeds comes to mind.  I hope that the right people will always be placed in your path to help you through all the wrong people in your path.

Things are accelerating towards the end times more quickly than most of us care to admit.  The wheats will be separated from the tares.  Do you know the significance of that metaphor?  A tare is a type of grass that looks very much like wheat.  So much so that it is virtually impossible to tell the difference until it ripens.  So, only during the harvest can they be separated.  The wheats are gathered into the storehouse.  The tares are left in the field to be burned with the stubble.  Today's factory farms do things differently.  But this is an ancient allegory using ancient conventions.

We all do everything we can to help others and we try to stick together.  But in the end we are all individually responsible for obtaining salvation through the Savior.  During the end times, it is going to be our relationship with our Heavenly Father that saves us, not our dependence upon each other.

Stand in holy places.  Be guided by the Prophet and all the apostles.  Study your scriptures and pray without ceasing.  Always admit your own weaknesses before the Lord.

I know you may feel like you're new.  But remember that you had a life before this earth.  And there, time meant nothing.  We all learned a great many things concerning the truth, the plan of salvation, and the nature of our lives here on earth.  How we would be tried and tested.

While you were there, you were given certain spiritual gifts.  Seek them out.  And when it comes time, you will have to use them. 

You were also confirmed a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  And at that time, you were given a charge to receive the Holy Ghost. That is how you will be able to keep oil in your lamp for when the bridegroom comes.  That is how YOU will tell the difference between the wheats and the tares.  That is how you will discern between truth and error.

Trust in the Lord in all your doings.  Keep the faith.  Listen to the Spirit.

 

Edited by Carborendum

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2 hours ago, Grunt said:

To be honest, I'd rather you just avoid my threads.  I don't need to question your faith.  You've been pretty open about it.  However, that's your business, not mine.

I’d like to imagine all of us on the website one day having a BBQ in someone’s backyard and enjoying each other’s company knowing we all love God, the gospel, and one another as the children of God we all are. You don’t need to be bitter or resentful with those who may be less faithful than you. Just let it go. I said a prayer for you today hoping you continue to have an amazing journey with the Church. Just let the bitterness go, brother. You don’t need to make someone out to be the bad guy. We can all love and accept one another even if some are stronger than others in the gospel or have differing opinions.

Edited by clbent04

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Just now, clbent04 said:

I’d like to imagine all of us on the website one day having a BBQ in someone’s backyard and enjoying each other’s company knowing we all love God, the gospel, and one another as the children of God we all are. You don’t need to be bitter or resentful at those who may be less faithful than you. Just let it go. I said a prayer for you today hoping you continue to have an amazing journey with the Church. Just let the bitterness go, brother. You don’t need to make someone to be the bad guy. We can all love and accept one another even if some are stronger than others in the gospel or have differing opinions.

Thanks.  I'd still rather you avoid my threads.  I appreciate your consideration.

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2 hours ago, Grunt said:

 Is there not an obligation to call it out and attempt to correct false information as it appears?

Yes and no. I think there's an obligation to generally stand for truth and defend the gospel, etc. Just like there's an obligation to feed the hungry and clothe the naked.

Does that mean we are obligated to feed EVERY hungry person ourselves? Of course not.

Likewise, it is not our obligation to stand against every piece of false information that appears.

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Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Yes and no. I think there's an obligation to generally stand for truth and defend the gospel, etc. Just like there's an obligation to feed the hungry and clothe the naked.

Does that mean we are obligated to feed EVERY hungry person ourselves? Of course not.

Likewise, it is not our obligation to stand against every piece of false information that appears.

That's a great and insightful point.  I would submit, though, that it is our responsibility to help those we can.  I would also say we should stand for truth and defend the gospel when presented, assuming doing so wouldn't do more harm than good.  

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43 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Thanks.  I'd still rather you avoid my threads.  I appreciate your consideration.

I tried sending this message to you privately at first because I don't want you to think I'm making a show of this, but looks like you blocked my private message ability to you. You probably won't believe me, but this is true. Earlier this morning I got the impression I need to have compassion in my heart towards you, or more accurately I felt compassion in my heart for you knowing that any kind of conflict we harbor towards one another is not good. And that was before I had even ever come across your Faithful vs Less Faithful post. Honestly. I know that probably doesn't mean much since it seems like we've stepped on each other toes quite a bit, and I know I don't owe you anything just like you don't owe me anything, but I think both of us can be better. As you continue in the church you'll get to know a greater variety of members. I hope you can come to love and embrace them as the imperfect people they are, even the members who aren't High Priests. Some will be sitting in the back of Elder's Quorum with their shirts untucked with a couple stains on them. Loving these guys will make you love yourself more too.

Edited by clbent04

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1 minute ago, clbent04 said:

I tried sending this message to you privately at first because I don't want you to think I'm making a show of this, but looks like you blocked my private message ability to you. You probably won't believe me, but this is true. Earlier this morning I got the impression I need to have compassion in my heart towards you, or more accurately I felt compassion in my heart for you knowing that any kind of conflict we harbor towards one another is not good. And that was before I had even ever come across your Faithful vs Less Faithful post. Honestly. I know that probably doesn't mean much since it seems like we've stepped on each other toes quite a bit, and I know I don't owe you anything just like you don't owe me anything, but I think both of us can be better. As you continue in the church you'll get to know a greater variety of members. I hope you can come to love and embrace them as the imperfect people they are, even the members who aren't High Priests. Some will be sitting in the back of Elder's Quorum with their shirts untucked with a couple stains on them. Loving these guys will make you love yourself more too.

Thanks.  I'd still rather you avoid my threads.  I appreciate your consideration.

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42 minutes ago, Grunt said:

That's a great and insightful point.  I would submit, though, that it is our responsibility to help those we can.  I would also say we should stand for truth and defend the gospel when presented, assuming doing so wouldn't do more harm than good.  

I generally agree.

However, having been through what you seem to be going through several times over now, I've gotten to the point where I realize that I also have a responsibility to my own sanity. Even battle hardened warriors don't fight 24/7. They go on leave. They sleep. They dance with the pretty girls at the USO. Etc.

I believe my interactions here, while perhaps valiant and stalwart as a defender of the gospel, were hurting my own soul too badly. I've left several times. I recall @Vort took a "sabbatical" once several years back where we didn't see him for many a month. He'll have to speak for himself as to the why (I technically know what he shared with me but it's not my place to speak for him). The last time I left it was going to be for good. Why did I return? Interestingly enough (maybe), for the same reason. For me. I realized that this forum is relatively safe way for me to be anxiously involved in gospel discussion. (By "safe" I mean as compared to other online places). I realized I was going through the week with, other than Sundays and scripture study, focus on mostly work, TV, hobbies, shopping, etc....you know...life. -- all wholesome with the exception of my over-dependence on TV for entertainment -- but not what I need and want in my life. I need and want daily gospel discussion. And, yes...with the family is good...but there's only so much I can repeat myself to my wife, and my youngster doesn't exactly fill my need for intellectual gospel discourse. So I returned for me more than anything.

Therefore my approach has softened. That may not always be readily apparent in my individual posts. I am who I am. I speak like I speak. And I will defend the gospel unapologetic. But I post a lot less. I let things go. Certain posters I simply won't interact with unless what they state is truly egregious. I let the minor garbage go with them. With others I might comment, but when the trauma really gets rolling I tend to walk away sooner, etc.

I tell you this as someone who understands. I came to this forum for the purpose of defending the gospel. I was all about that in the first place. And I went at it...hard. You can ask the others who've been around longer. I'm confident they'll back up the reality...a few years back and I was in it...all...the...time..... Deep in it. Battles, blood, and bad feelings! And the fact of the matter is, I backed out of it because I couldn't handle it any more...not because I decided I was in the wrong. (Don't get me wrong...I was often in the wrong (meaning rude, sarcastic, etc). But not position-wise) I simply couldn't take the soul crushing reality of being constantly told by "progressives" how horrible I was. And when push comes to shove, my primary circle of influence should not be random people on the internet. My ward, my family, my neighbors, my fellow employees, and the people I actually interact with sans-fake-inter-web-world is where I really need to be going about my Father's work.

So, yes, as you will see...I'll still defend the gospel here. But I believe there needs to be some balance. I suppose you're simply in the process of finding balance. You'll get there. I'm probably still finding it too. But....I'm more balanced than I was. I think.

Edited by The Folk Prophet

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2 minutes ago, Grunt said:

Thanks.  I'd still rather you avoid my threads.  I appreciate your consideration.

I can respect that, even though you didn't respect the same request I made to you nearly a year ago when we first started bumping heads.  For the most part you're the one that posts on my threads.  This may be the 1st of 2nd time ever that I have posted on one of your topics. I'll only post on your threads if I see the need to defend myself against baseless accusations or judgments, or if it's just a really good topic.

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6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

I generally agree.

However, having been through what you seem to be going through several times over now, I've gotten to the point where I realize that I also have a responsibility to my own sanity. Even battle hardened warriors don't fight 24/7. They go on leave. They sleep. They dance with the pretty girls at the USO. Etc.

 

1

I'm a senior grunt.  Ignoring what I perceive to be wrong is very difficult for me.  That doesn't mean I disagree with your statement, because you're 100% correct.  It just means that it isn't as easy as it sounds for people like me.

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 

I believe my interactions here, while perhaps valiant and stalwart as a defender of the gospel, were hurting my own soul too badly. I've left several times. I recall @Vort took a "sabbatical" once several years back where we didn't see him for many a month. He'll have to speak for himself as to the why (I technically know what he shared with me but it's not my place to speak for him). The last time I left it was going to be for good. Why did I return? Interestingly enough (maybe), for the same reason. For me. I realized that this forum is relatively safe way for me to be anxiously involved in gospel discussion. (By "safe" I mean as compared to other online places). I realized I was going through the week with, other than Sundays and scripture study, focus on mostly work, TV, hobbies, shopping, etc....you know...life. -- all wholesome with the exception of my over-dependence on TV for entertainment -- but not what I need and want in my life. I need and want daily gospel discussion. And, yes...with the family is good...but there's only so much I can repeat myself to my wife, and my youngster doesn't exactly fill my need for intellectual gospel discourse. So I returned for me more than anything.

 

2

I took a small sabbatical recently.  Not anything drastic, just didn't come around or post much.  I probably should have shut down for longer.  

6 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 

I tell you this as someone who understands. I came to this forum for the purpose of defending the gospel.

 

I didn't come here to defend the gospel, though.  I came here with a sincere desire to learn about your faith.   Others apparently just want to tear it down, create doubt, or make a mockery.

Edited by Grunt

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2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The wheats will be separated from the tares.  Do you know the significance of that metaphor?  A tare is a type of grass that looks very much like wheat.  So much so that it is virtually impossible to tell the difference until it ripens.

And if you pull up the tares while they're still young, you uproot the wheat along with it, destroying both. The solution is to wait until the grain is ripe, then go into the field and gather out the tares by hand. When that's done, you can take your scythe and harvest the wheat.

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3 minutes ago, Vort said:

And if you pull up the tares while they're still young, you uproot the wheat along with it, destroying both. The solution is to wait until the grain is ripe, then go into the field and gather out the tares by hand. When that's done, you can take your scythe and harvest the wheat.

What's that mean in English?

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2 minutes ago, clbent04 said:

I can respect that,

For what it's worth, and to play devils' advocate to @Grunt a bit (this is for you @MarginOfError -- and your pro devil's advocate stance ;)) the correct response is, "You don't dictate where I post. If you don't want to reply to my posts, don't. I'll say what I want, when I want, unless it's against the forum rules. Deal with it!"

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2 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

For what it's worth, and to play devils' advocate to @Grunt a bit (this is for you @MarginOfError -- and your pro devil's advocate stance ;)) the correct response is, "You don't dictate where I post. If you don't want to reply to my posts, don't. I'll say what I want, when I want, unless it's against the forum rules. Deal with it!"

Of course, he's free to post where ever he likes.  It was a request, not an order.  If you think being a trolling jerk is a better solution, then advocate for it.  That's what the ignore button is for.

Edited by Grunt

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3 minutes ago, Grunt said:
7 minutes ago, Vort said:

And if you pull up the tares while they're still young, you uproot the wheat along with it, destroying both. The solution is to wait until the grain is ripe, then go into the field and gather out the tares by hand. When that's done, you can take your scythe and harvest the wheat.

What's that mean in English?

It means you don't purify the wheat field while the grain is sprouting. You can see the weeds (tares), but in general you don't do anything about them. Maybe when the tares start choking out a patch of grain, you have to go in their and pull some up—in modern parlance, you spray them with some Roundup. Then you wait until both the wheat and the weeds are grown up tall and the wheat has turned to a nice, golden ripeness. At that point (remember, we're talking in ancient times where you harvest by hand), before you harvest the grain, you first go through the field and pull out the weeds so they don't get stuck in your grain sheaves. Once that's done, you and your friends grab your harvesting equipment—hand-held sickles or sickle-like blades on the end of long poles, called scythes—and go to work collecting your grain.

We will not be rid of the apostates and naysayers and ne'er-do-wells at this time. Nor, let me point out, do we want to be rid of them now. In the first place, they are children of God, and may at any time repent from their wickedness and turn from a tare into a stalk of wheat. I realize that imagery sort of violates the paradigm of the Lord's parable, but I think we're supposed to infer that ourselves. Secondly, even if they do not repent, they play the important role of opposition. We ought not encourage or nurture such opposition—to do so is spiritual suicide—but we ought to recognize it when we see it. If we never have Mormons In Name Only trying to upsell us the latest miracle essential oils, harvest the ward membership list to get some people downstream on their pyramid scheme MLM position, and generally take advantage of all those wonderful brothers and sisters who don't need their own money as badly as the MINOs, we remain as children. Apparently, opposition is all part of the Father's plan for us.

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