Doctrine and Covenants 138 Q

[Fether]

Doctrine and Covenants 138 was a revelation received by President Joseph F Smith. It is all about the missionary work in the spirit world.

What in this was new or not understood? Did the saints prior to this not know there was missionary work going on in the spirit world?

[Vort]

Off the top of my head, the following ideas were new or at least not widely understood when this revelation was presented:

• The righteous dead live separately, in glory and joy, from the masses of the dead who have not received and honored their covenants.
• Jesus did not go himself among the wicked dead preaching repentance and redemption, but organized the forces to do so.
• The dead look on their long separation from their bodies as a prison of sorts.

I'm sure there are many other points. Maybe I'll return later on today and look through Section 138 and see other points that should be listed. More probably, others will already have done so.

[Jersey Boy]

3 hours ago, Fether said:

Doctrine and Covenants 138 was a revelation received by President Joseph F Smith. It is all about the missionary work in the spirit world.

What in this was new or not understood? Did the saints prior to this not know there was missionary work going on in the spirit world?

Doctrine and Covenants 138 reveals that the unrighteousness and rebellious spirits who are confined to the spirit prison, because they rejected the Gospel of Christ and prophets of God while in the flesh, will have the opportunity to hear, learn, believe and live the gospel in the spirit world. Additionally, after the resurrection these same formerly unrighteousness and rebellious spirits will, be saved in one of the three realms of post-resurrection heavenly glory only by virtue of at least receiving the vicariously performed gospel ordinances of baptism and conference of the gift of the Holy Ghost. In other words, no one can be forgiven and saved in even the telestial kingdom of post-resurrection glory without receiving the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. Indeed, Doctrine and Covenants 138 reveals some new and glorious truths that are not as plainly disclosed in the previous revelations.

P.S. Before anyone jumps down my throat and tries to assert that what I wrote above isn’t true, please slowly and carefully read Section 138 before opining.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[mikbone]

In my mind it explains something spectacular.  Prior to Christ's visit, Paradise and Spirit Prison were separate locations and no one could travel between the two.

When Christ visited Paradise, He somehow made it possible for missionaries from Paradise to travel into Spirit Prison v. 30

 

Speculation to follow:

I like to think that Christ did something like build a bridge between the 2 locations.  Allowing the Missionaries to pass from Paradise to Spirit Prison and Back.  And, perhaps some of those in Spirit Prison who accept the gospel and repent of their sins will be able to enter into Paradise verses 31-35.  

Edited June 29, 2019 by mikbone

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

Prior to Christ's visit, Paradise and Spirit Prison were separate locations and no one could travel between the two.

Says who?

2 hours ago, mikbone said:

Speculation to follow:

You should have put this at the start of your post.

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

P.S. Before anyone jumps down my throat and tries to assert that what I wrote above isn’t true, please slowly and carefully read Section 138 before opining.

You presume we haven't?

[Jersey Boy]

20 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

You presume we haven't?

Only if you reject the truthfulness and doctrinal validity of what I stated in my previous post because you didn’t fully comprehend the meaning of Section 138 when you previously read it. So if you disagree with what I wrote in my previous post, go back and carefully reread it and see if you still disagree with my analysis after you’re finished.

 

 

Edited June 29, 2019 by Jersey Boy

[Vort]

5 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

In other words, no one can be forgiven and saved in even the telestial kingdom of post-resurrection glory without receiving the first principles and ordinances of the gospel.

I happen to agree with this, and also agree that it is implicit in Section 138. But this doctrine goes beyond what our prophets have taught, and thus must be regarded as speculative.

Edited June 29, 2019 by Vort

[Just_A_Guy]

The Church’s Revelations in Context article on Section 138 is actually pretty cool.

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, Jersey Boy said:

Only if you reject the truthfulness and doctrinal validity of what I stated in my previous post because you didn’t fully comprehend the meaning of Section 138 when you previously read it.

Humility.

[Jersey Boy]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

I happen to agree with this, and also agree that it is implicit in Section 138. But this doctrine goes beyond what our prophets have taught, and thus must be regarded as speculative.

I guess you missed the portion of Section 138 that makes the teaching perfectly clear. If the leaders aren’t teaching the doctrine, ithey’re doing so without reference to the content of Section 138, not because of it. I encourage you to go back and reread 138 because the pertinent portions on the subject are perfectly and unambiguously clear.

[Jersey Boy]

Just now, The Folk Prophet said:

Humility.

When one is dealing with obvious facts, and not with purely speculative opinions, there’s no need to pretend he might be wrong for the sake of sparing delicate feelings. Read it.

[The Folk Prophet]

20 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

Read it.

I have. Several times. And again today. I'm still not convinced your take on 'obvious' is as obvious as you are implying. 

[Vort]

42 minutes ago, Jersey Boy said:

I guess you missed the portion of Section 138 that makes the teaching perfectly clear. If the leaders aren’t teaching the doctrine, ithey’re doing so without reference to the content of Section 138, not because of it. I encourage you to go back and reread 138 because the pertinent portions on the subject are perfectly and unambiguously clear.

Someone isn't reading carefully...

[Fether]

On 6/29/2019 at 3:05 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

On 6/29/2019 at 12:34 PM, mikbone said:

Prior to Christ's visit, Paradise and Spirit Prison were separate locations and no one could travel between the two.

Says who?

I had the same questions, but recently found this in my studies of the work of the dead.

““Before the crucifixion of the Lord there was a great gulf fixed separating the righteous dead from those who had not received the Gospel, and across this gulf no man could pass. (Luke 16:26.) Christ bridged that gulf and made it possible for the word of salvation to be taken to all corners of the kingdom of darkness. In this way the realms of hell were invaded and the dead prepared for the ordinances of the Gospel which must be performed on earth since they pertain to the mortal probation” (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, 165).”

[Traveler]

On 6/29/2019 at 4:05 PM, The Folk Prophet said:

Says who?

Jesus the Christ - see Luke 16:26

Quote

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

 

The Traveler

[The Folk Prophet]

3 hours ago, Fether said:

I had the same questions, but recently found this in my studies of the work of the dead.

““Before the crucifixion of the Lord there was a great gulf fixed separating the righteous dead from those who had not received the Gospel, and across this gulf no man could pass. (Luke 16:26.) Christ bridged that gulf and made it possible for the word of salvation to be taken to all corners of the kingdom of darkness. In this way the realms of hell were invaded and the dead prepared for the ordinances of the Gospel which must be performed on earth since they pertain to the mortal probation” (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, 165).”

 

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Jesus the Christ - see Luke 16:26

7 minutes ago, Traveler said:

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

 

FWIW, I've always read this as (what seems to me to be obvious) non-literal. Of course there was a great gulf that kept the work of Christ from being done until Christ paved the way for it to be done. I'm just not entirely sure it makes any sense at all to presume that means a spacial (I was going to say physical, but....spirits....) barrier.

Translating these ideas into "separate locations" doesn't follow in my mind.

Edited July 1, 2019 by The Folk Prophet

[Fether]

17 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

 

FWIW, I've always read this as (what seems to me to be obvious) non-literal. Of course there was a great gulf that kept the work of Christ from being done until Christ paved the way for it to be done. I'm just not entirely sure it makes any sense at all to presume that means a spacial (I was going to say physical, but....spirits....) barrier.

Translating these ideas into "separate locations" doesn't follow in my mind.

And that did cross my mind too so I am open to agree. I also see Pres. Young’s description of the spirit world in how we can travel through space in an instance and see how things were at different points of time (chap 39 of Teachings of the Presidents: Brigham Young) and it makes me think that their isn’t much of a “physical” anything. Just states of being. So it does make sense that there would be NO “physical” barrier, but some state of existence where the righteous and the unrighteous do no come in contact of each other.

but I really don’t have a strong enough opinion on either to argue about it

Edited July 1, 2019 by Fether

[CV75]

On 6/29/2019 at 11:38 AM, Fether said:

Doctrine and Covenants 138 was a revelation received by President Joseph F Smith. It is all about the missionary work in the spirit world.

What in this was new or not understood? Did the saints prior to this not know there was missionary work going on in the spirit world?

Verses 23-24, our spirits have "bodies" (e.g. knees, countenances).

37-49, 57: the personalities who are engaged in carrying the message