Did Face to Face answer questions?

[carlimac]

47 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

The Boy Scouts also pay extra to go to camp, and a fair amount of scout camp labor is also donated.  

And note that I described the costs as being to “own and maintain”, which includes amortized costs of purchase.  Some of these camps are likely worth tens of millions of dollars (The Heber Valley Camp, being perhaps the most extreme example; it covers 13 square miles of forest and sits at the top of a five-mile-long private access road and has enough cabins - nice cabins, with electricity and bunk beds - for at least 5,000 people at any given time.  That’s 60,000 girls in a three-month summer period—and only a fraction of the total number of LDS girls who go to camp each year.  And compare Heber Valley Camp to BSA’s Philmont Scout Ranch, which covers over 15 times the area but services only 22,000 kids in a four-month summer period.)

Until last year, the Church provided each YW a value of between $29 (my estimate) and $75 ( @Vort‘s estimate) by building and maintaining a network of camps for their exclusive use.  The Church provided each YM a value of maybe $60 ($33 in BSA registration fees as of last year, and maybe another $30 in award/badge allowances) by securing their access to a separate network of camps run by a third-party nonprofit.  And remember, BSA registration fees have skyrocketed from $10 in 2010 to $33 this year (and $60 next year).  So depending on whose numbers you use, until very recently there has  either been rough gender parity for camp access funding (my figures) or a disparity that favors the YW to a frankly ridiculous extent (Vort’s figures).

I’d like to know what the numbers actually are. Not just surmised to be.

[Fether]

9 minutes ago, carlimac said:

That may be true to a certain extent but it isn’t a message that is very clear.In many wards there has been enormous leader pressure to accomplish the goal or project. Our last YW President put a huge emphasis on completing Personal Progress and devoted at least one activity a month towards it. There was absolutely no “this is optional” message there. I don’t know how the girls who just didn’t respond to the checklist approach to progressing personally could not feel like losers. Especially when the ones who finished it all in their first year of Beehives were praised and honored copiously!

That was the old way. I’m talking about the changes made Sunday night. If wards are still strict and demanding on achievements, that is there deal, not the church’s

[Vort]

1 hour ago, carlimac said:

We didn’t get to go to those camps for free. I recall having to pay every year. And my girls had to pay to go, too. They now use “missionary” couples to act as hosts and to do maintenance. I don’t think the church paid anywhere near that much to maintain them.

So JAG gave you facts, figures, and analysis, and your reply is basically, "I don't believe it." Do you see the asymmetry here?

[Guest MormonGator]

11 minutes ago, carlimac said:

My oldest daughter who is Primary President in her ward already predicts that the activities on the Primary level will be based on the “noise” of several squeaky wheel parents in her ward. The quieter families will just have to go with the flow.

How is the activity rate for the youth groups in your area?

[Just_A_Guy]

43 minutes ago, carlimac said:

I’d like to know what the numbers actually are. Not just surmised to be.

As would I.  But of course, the other side didn’t need the actual numbers before they accused the Church of treating the YW unfairly and/or underfunding the YW program.  And they weren’t even honest enough to note the existence of those camps in the first place.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[carlimac]

12 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

As would I.  But of course, the other side didn’t need the actual numbers before they accused the Church of treating the YW unfairly and/or underfunding the YW program.  And they weren’t even honest enough to note the existence of those camps in the first place.

They probably didn’t know about them. Actually only a very small percentage of wards and stakes have access to those camps. It’s mostly a western US advantage. Here in the east and the rest of the world we go through the process every year of having to find a place for the girls to have camp. It has cost my girls at least $100 out of pocket each to attend. 

[estradling75]

23 minutes ago, carlimac said:

They probably didn’t know about them. Actually only a very small percentage of wards and stakes have access to those camps. It’s mostly a western US advantage. Here in the east and the rest of the world we go through the process every year of having to find a place for the girls to have camp. It has cost my girls at least $100 out of pocket each to attend. 

So you acknowledge that the outrage was done in the absences of all the facts...  And now having more facts... the position does not change.  Thus a perfect example of how the facts do not matter if they do not support the opinion one has already form in ignorance of all the facts

[Just_A_Guy]

30 minutes ago, carlimac said:

They probably didn’t know about them. Actually only a very small percentage of wards and stakes have access to those camps. It’s mostly a western US advantage. Here in the east and the rest of the world we go through the process every year of having to find a place for the girls to have camp. It has cost my girls at least $100 out of pocket each to attend. 

The camps are less dense in the east, but do exist and can be found on the Church’s website.  If local YW leadership can’t be bothered to do a web search . . . That isn’t the priesthood’s fault.  

Of course, not all BSA camps are concentrated equally, either.  And as I recall (its been 20+ years), $100 was also the ballpark for what my parents paid to send me to scout camp for a week.  (I distinctly remember EFY being about $280 for a week, because I had to cough up for that myself.)

And this is sort of a bait-and-switch—from “the Church doesn’t pay enough to the girls” to “the Church doesn’t pay enough to the right girls in the right places”.  Church regional membership densities are inevitably going to create some inequalities as to the sort of services that are available; but that’s a far cry from the sort of gender discrimination that was initially charged.  

Being a Californian transplant into Utah, I’m always amused at the out-of-Utah Mormons who talk about how terrible Utah Mormons are and how horrible it would be to live here, but can’t seem to understand why Salt Lake can’t or won’t earmark more tithings dollars to guarantee them the exact level of Church services that come naturally in areas where there is a higher density of church membership.  If you hate living around other Mormons and specifically chose to live somewhere that you wouldn’t have to to that, then don’t complain when you have to drive 45 minutes to church or two hours to the nearest temple or four hours to the nearest church camp.  

Edited November 20, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[Vort]

31 minutes ago, carlimac said:

It has cost my girls at least $100 out of pocket each to attend. 

I believe that's less than any of my Scouts paid for even the most basic summer camp. Activities cost money.

[Just_A_Guy]

14 minutes ago, Vort said:

I believe that's less than any of my Scouts paid for even the most basic summer camp. Activities cost money.

Here a Connecticut scout camp where the “discount” fee is $325 and the regular fee is $450.

https://campworkcoeman.org/boy-scouts/fees/

[anatess2]

15 hours ago, carlimac said:

That may be true to a certain extent but it isn’t a message that is very clear.In many wards there has been enormous leader pressure to accomplish the goal or project. Our last YW President put a huge emphasis on completing Personal Progress and devoted at least one activity a month towards it. There was absolutely no “this is optional” message there. I don’t know how the girls who just didn’t respond to the checklist approach to progressing personally could not feel like losers. Especially when the ones who finished it all in their first year of Beehives were praised and honored copiously!

 

My oldest daughter who is Primary President in her ward already predicts that the activities on the Primary level will be based on the “noise” of several squeaky wheel parents in her ward. The quieter families will just have to go with the flow.

Okay, I don't understand this.

You're saying that a YW President who drives the young women to complete Personal Progress goals is bad?

You know... in Scouts... we don't just drive boys to get their Eagles.  We have monthly activities driving them towards Adventure Loops in Cub Scouts and Merit Badges in Boy Scouts.  Cub Scouts have to accomplish certain adventures to get the Wolf, Bear, Webelos Badges and the badges are hung on their uniforms in addition to the Adventure Loops they completed hung on their belts, so it's very clear who got what Belt Loops and Badges and who didn't.  Every 3 months we hand out the awards to kids who finished adventures and those who didn't finish (usually because they are absent because of some sports thing they are involved in) sit in their chairs looking at the other kids getting loops.  Of course, after getting all these badges and such, they eventually make Eagle.  And the names of all Eagle Scouts from the ward are hanging on the wall by the bishop's office since the 80's when the ward had its very first Eagle Scout.

There's no such thing in Young Women in our ward.   But Young Women get their medalions in Sacrament Meeting in addition to their YW awarding ceremony mid-week.  Eagle Scouts don't get theirs in Sacrament Meeting.  But yeah, the YW monthly activities are geared towards Personal Progress.  This is considered a good thing in my neck of the woods.

 

[carlimac]

15 hours ago, Vort said:

So JAG gave you facts, figures, and analysis, and your reply is basically, "I don't believe it." Do you see the asymmetry here?

I did realize JAG was moonlighting as accountant for the Church. It’s an interesting idea that the girls actually have gotten more money than the Young men but I think it would be a long shot to prove. 

 

In any case, I’m not one who has ever complained about inequities in funds. My kids have never felt neglected in the area of Church activities. I don’t really care. 

 

[carlimac]

24 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Okay, I don't understand this.

You're saying that a YW President who drives the young women to complete Personal Progress goals is bad?

You know... in Scouts... we don't just drive boys to get their Eagles.  We have monthly activities driving them towards Adventure Loops in Cub Scouts and Merit Badges in Boy Scouts.  Cub Scouts have to accomplish certain adventures to get the Wolf, Bear, Webelos Badges and the badges are hung on their uniforms in addition to the Adventure Loops they completed hung on their belts, so it's very clear who got what Belt Loops and Badges and who didn't.  Every 3 months we hand out the awards to kids who finished adventures and those who didn't finish (usually because they are absent because of some sports thing they are involved in) sit in their chairs looking at the other kids getting loops.  Of course, after getting all these badges and such, they eventually make Eagle.  And the names of all Eagle Scouts from the ward are hanging on the wall by the bishop's office since the 80's when the ward had its very first Eagle Scout.

There's no such thing in Young Women in our ward.   But Young Women get their medalions in Sacrament Meeting in addition to their YW awarding ceremony mid-week.  Eagle Scouts don't get theirs in Sacrament Meeting.  But yeah, the YW monthly activities are geared towards Personal Progress.  This is considered a good thing in my neck of the woods.

 

Of course it’s a good thing for kids who like that sort of thing. But completely unnecessary for eternal salvation.

[Vort]

29 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

Okay, I don't understand this.

You're saying that a YW President who drives the young women to complete Personal Progress goals is bad?

You know... in Scouts... we don't just drive boys to get their Eagles.  We have monthly activities driving them towards Adventure Loops in Cub Scouts and Merit Badges in Boy Scouts.  Cub Scouts have to accomplish certain adventures to get the Wolf, Bear, Webelos Badges and the badges are hung on their uniforms in addition to the Adventure Loops they completed hung on their belts, so it's very clear who got what Belt Loops and Badges and who didn't.  Every 3 months we hand out the awards to kids who finished adventures and those who didn't finish (usually because they are absent because of some sports thing they are involved in) sit in their chairs looking at the other kids getting loops.  Of course, after getting all these badges and such, they eventually make Eagle.  And the names of all Eagle Scouts from the ward are hanging on the wall by the bishop's office since the 80's when the ward had its very first Eagle Scout.

There's no such thing in Young Women in our ward.   But Young Women get their medalions in Sacrament Meeting in addition to their YW awarding ceremony mid-week.  Eagle Scouts don't get theirs in Sacrament Meeting.  But yeah, the YW monthly activities are geared towards Personal Progress.  This is considered a good thing in my neck of the woods.

anatess, your ignorance is cute. You need to get with the program.

The YW President who "drives the young women" is oppressive and horrible, doubtless under the evil influence of The Patriarchy®. But the fact that the young men are driven to accomplish things when the young women are not given the same advantage just goes to show that The Patriarchy® values the YM above the YW.

And the fact that the YW are given recognition in sacrament meeting is another tool of oppression by The Patriarchy®. Look at the young men! They get their own special meeting, all just for them!

Come on, anatess. It's not that hard. Heads I win, tails you lose.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Vort

[anatess2]

15 hours ago, carlimac said:

I’d like to know what the numbers actually are. Not just surmised to be.

To all of you arguing over costs... THIS IS IRRELEVANT because you are all arguing over a faulty premise - that the amount of money spent on a program is indicative of how much "precious" the program is.  This is Bull Hokey.  Do you think the Temple in Orlando is more precious than the Temple in Manila because they spent millions of dollars more on it?  Of course not.  Likewise, whether YW get more money or YM get more money is IRRELEVANT.  What is relevant is the activity itself.

Scouts cost money.  A lot of money.  It is a rigorous merit-based program that requires specific activities.  You don't just go to camp once a year.  You go to camp as many times as is required to achieve a certain merit.  The Church did not come up with these merits and therefore cannot eliminate certain activities and still get merit.

Personal Progress doesn't have to have a lot of money to run superbly or it can spend more money than Scouts if leadership designs it to be.  That is because every single activity in Personal Progress is determined by Church Leadership and if there's one thing the Church is really good at - it's operating on shoe-string budgets.  I know this because I used to be the Activities Coordinator and I had a $300 annual budget to plan 6 ward activities for the year.  My kid's birthday party costs twice more than the annual activities budget.

Regardless of how much money you spend on your specific programs, what makes it a good program is determined by the quality of youth graduating out of the program.  If you spent $300/year on your kid in the program and he/she's just as obnoxious and useless to society as he/she was going in, that program is a crappy program.  If you spent $10 on the program and your obnoxious and useless kid came out of it a paragon of virtue it was a great program.

 

 

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

I had a $300 annual budget to plan 6 ward activities for the year.  My kid's birthday party costs twice more than the annual activities budget.

...holy cow...

[anatess2]

4 minutes ago, carlimac said:

Of course it’s a good thing for kids who like that sort of thing. But completely unnecessary for eternal salvation.

This is, of course, silly and displays a complete and utter misunderstanding of what Youth Activities are about.

Do you tell kids who think school is not their sort of thing to stop going to school because it is unnecessary for their eternal salvation?

 

[carlimac]

15 hours ago, MormonGator said:

How is the activity rate for the youth groups in your area?

In her ward there are quite a few families who don’t come. Probably about average for her area. 

In my ward in MD we have actually about 75-80% activity rate for youth and Primary. 

Why do you ask?

[Guest MormonGator]

5 minutes ago, carlimac said:

Why do you ask?

Curious, nothing more. 

All the talk about spending is irrelevant if no one shows up to the activities, I guess. And if there isn't a difference in how the money is spent between the boys and girls activities, the church, and it's members, need to do a better job of explaining it. Because many, many, many people think there is. 

[carlimac]

21 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

This is, of course, silly and displays a complete and utter misunderstanding of what Youth Activities are about.

Do you tell kids who think school is not their sort of thing to stop going to school because it is unnecessary for their eternal salvation?

 

🙄 My point is that Personal Progress as well as the new program are simply tools members can use if they so choose to draw closer to the Savior. Some kids don’t need this tool. It doesn’t fit their style. But they are just as Christ-like, giving, accomplished and spiritually in tune as others who fretted and fussed and got nagged at to finish all these rather arbitrary assignments. Perhaps more so because they are doing the right thing for the right reason instead of doing it to get an adult off their back or out of peer pressure. 

For some, Personal Progress is the exact right method to learn what they need to learn. For others it misses the mark because they don’t respond well to the checklist approach to living the Gospel. Likewise many young men don’t get their Eagle because it doesn’t resonate with them. But they are excellent young men.

I would bet my life that there will be many numbers of souls in the Celestial Kingdom who never completed their Young Woman medallion or got their Eagle who were on the Earth when the Church subscribed to these programs. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by carlimac

[anatess2]

10 minutes ago, Vort said:

anatess, your ignorance is cute. You need to get with the program.

The YW President who "drives the young women" is oppressive and horrible, doubtless under the evil influence of The Patriarchy®. But the fact that the young men are driven to accomplish things when the young women are not given the same advantage just goes to show that The Patriarchy® values the YM above the YW.

And the fact that the YW are given recognition in sacrament meeting is another tool of oppression by The Patriarchy®. Look at the young men! They get their own special meeting, all just for them!

Come on, anatess. It's not that hard. Heads I win, tails you lose.

Modern Feminism is Societal Cancer and it permeates even the Church.  Sadly.

[anatess2]

9 minutes ago, Vort said:

...holy cow...

We didn't have a cow.  But we had horses in patriotic colors leading our July 4th bike parade ward activity once.  It was awesome.

[carlimac]

2 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Here a Connecticut scout camp where the “discount” fee is $325 and the regular fee is $450.

https://campworkcoeman.org/boy-scouts/fees/

If I personally cared about this topic I would argue that the fact that Boy Scout camp costs more than YW camp doesn’t prove anything regarding ward budget. 🤷‍♀️

 

42 minutes ago, anatess2 said:

We didn't have a cow.  But we had horses in patriotic colors leading our July 4th bike parade ward activity once.  It was awesome.

But what kind of birthday party costs $600? 🤔

[Just_A_Guy]

2 hours ago, carlimac said:

If I personally cared about this topic I would argue that the fact that Boy Scout camp costs more than YW camp doesn’t prove anything regarding ward budget. 🤷‍♀️

 

The issue is overall church funding, not individual ward budgets.  It stands to reason that camps with equivalent physical facilities and primarily volunteer staffs will have equivalent per-capita operating costs.  To the extent that girls’ camp results in less per capita out-of-pocket spending by the YW (apparently less than quarter the out-of-pocket cost of scout camp), based on available data it is reasonable to assume that this is because the church is subsidizing the operational costs of girls camps about four times more than it is subsidizing the operational costs of the scout camps. 

As far as whether or not you care about the topic:  obviously I have no particularized knowledge there.  All I know is that when I suggested the Church was heavily subsidizing girls camp, you found that sufficiently problematic to pipe up with the statements that a) the girls had to pay for camp (an amount that turns out to be 1/4 what the boys were paying), and b) the Church camps probably aren’t THAT expensive.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Just_A_Guy

[MarginOfError]

I have seen discrepancies in ward budgeting cut both directions. It's kind of hit-or-miss, and I've heard of enough first hand accounts of young women being given smaller budgets than young men (including from my spouse), that I'm certain the problem was common, but not ubiquitous.

The first time I was called as a ward clerk, the ward had three young men and their budget was $700. The ward had seven young women and their budget was $400. Yet, when I looked at the expenditures, the young women were trying to milk every penny out of their budget, and the young men had $575 left at the end of the year.

From the other direction, the Relief Society had a budget of $850. The EQ/HP had a combined budget of $100. The mens and womens groups were about equally sized.

I decided that couldn't stand.  I assigned budgets based on how many active participants there were in each group. The Young Women presidency loved me.  The Young Men presidency didn't care (they weren't spending the money anyway). Surprisingly, I got more push back from the men than I did from any one else.  The Relief Society president wasn't thrilled, but when she looked at my process for allocating the money she was willing to accept it because it treated everyone fairly. What caught me off guard was the resistance from the men.  Their claim was that they didn't need it and weren't likely to spend it. I responded that if they weren't using their budget, they weren't doing enough to build their quorum, and they should start doing a better job of that.  In then end, we negotiated $50 less to each EQ and HP, gave it to Relief Society and told the men to suck it up and have some activities.  That's when we started holding cookouts before priesthood sessions, and Elders Quorum started to be a bit more fun.

Anyway, I am a fan of the directive to allocate funds equally between programs based on participation. Like I said, it wasn't ubiquitous, but it probably does still happen that one group gets more than another for stupid reasons.  This gives a clear statement that leaders can use to advocate better funding for their groups when leaders are being jerks about budgets.