askandanswer Posted December 30, 2019 Report Posted December 30, 2019 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:8) Is the Lord inviting us to make a comparison here? If He is, would that comparison be more like an apples with apples comparison or would it be more like an apples with oranges comparison? Anddenex 1 Quote
person0 Posted December 30, 2019 Report Posted December 30, 2019 If we are to compare ourselves to Christ and seek to emulate Him, how could it be anything other than an apples to apples comparison? Anddenex and Traveler 2 Quote
askandanswer Posted December 30, 2019 Author Report Posted December 30, 2019 On 12/30/2019 at 3:57 AM, person0 said: If we are to compare ourselves to Christ and seek to emulate Him, how could it be anything other than an apples to apples comparison? Expand Well, its just that sometimes I hear that His father was God, whereas my father is not, and this probably results in significant differences - possibly even enough differences that it might be more like an apples with oranges comparison. Quote
person0 Posted December 30, 2019 Report Posted December 30, 2019 On 12/30/2019 at 5:39 AM, askandanswer said: Well, its just that sometimes I hear that His father was God, whereas my father is not, and this probably results in significant differences - possibly even enough differences that it might be more like an apples with oranges comparison. Expand His father might have been God, but He was still raised by Joseph and Mary. Biologically, God is still a man. Other than that, I'm not sure what kinds of differences you might be referring to. Quote
mikbone Posted December 30, 2019 Report Posted December 30, 2019 (edited) apples to apples Be ye therefore perfect - eventually. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng Elohim designed apples spiritually. The tree that produced humanity was planted and nourished by Jehovah. I like the analogy. Edited December 30, 2019 by mikbone Anddenex 1 Quote
zil Posted December 30, 2019 Report Posted December 30, 2019 On 12/30/2019 at 3:48 AM, askandanswer said: 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:8) Is the Lord inviting us to make a comparison here? ... Expand Pretty sure it's more about making a point, reminding Joseph of something, rather than literally asking a simple yes/no question. He's saying, "Get some perspective, Joseph. I've been through worse. I'll help you endure this. If you're humble." MrShorty, mordorbund, dprh and 2 others 5 Quote
Vort Posted December 30, 2019 Report Posted December 30, 2019 On 12/30/2019 at 3:48 AM, askandanswer said: 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:8) Is the Lord inviting us to make a comparison here? If He is, would that comparison be more like an apples with apples comparison or would it be more like an apples with oranges comparison? Expand I believe so, absolutely. In fact, we are constantly urged throughout scripture to compare ourselves with the Lord. We will always come up short, of course; but the point is that we can get an idea of what our next step might be. The wording of the above verse is interesting to me. What would being greater than Christ have to do with Christ descending below all things? Is God saying that as long as Joseph isn't better than Christ, he should not expect better treatment? I think he's saying rather the opposite of this: You are not greater than Christ, so the things required of Christ will not be required of you. In other words, don't despair and don't even worry. Your pains will be "swallowed up in the joy of Christ". Colirio, zil and Anddenex 3 Quote
Anddenex Posted December 30, 2019 Report Posted December 30, 2019 On 12/30/2019 at 3:48 AM, askandanswer said: 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:8) Is the Lord inviting us to make a comparison here? If He is, would that comparison be more like an apples with apples comparison or would it be more like an apples with oranges comparison? Expand Is the Lord inviting us to make a comparison here? Yes, a comparison is being made in order to bring things into proper perspective. It is also why I love the following words of Isaiah, "It is a light thing that thou shouldst be my servant." (emphasis mine). It isn't only a comparison though it is reminding us of who conquered all things, and that by Him we too can conquer all things. If He is, would that comparison be more like an apples with apples comparison or would it be more like an apples with oranges comparison? I honestly would say it is both. We are comparing apples with apples and we are also comparing apples with oranges. The apples to apples is knowing that we all face opposition. We all will face something difficult -- Abrahamic test so to speak. Truth in proper light is what allows us to be masters of our own fate. At the same time, our Savior's duty could have only been performed by him, and there you have the orange. All the trials I have faced I believe there are many of my brothers and sisters who have faced similar challenges. Although unique to me, it isn't something I could have only done and accomplished. Joseph is brought into perfect perspective -- truth -- by which he can then move forward with true light, and we definitely recognize it is a light thing to be the Lord's servant. Quote
anatess2 Posted December 30, 2019 Report Posted December 30, 2019 On 12/30/2019 at 3:48 AM, askandanswer said: 8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he? (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 122:8) Is the Lord inviting us to make a comparison here? If He is, would that comparison be more like an apples with apples comparison or would it be more like an apples with oranges comparison? Expand This specific verse is not for comparison. This specific verse is for inspiration (or admonishment) to pull up your bootstraps and stop whining about all the hardships you're going through in the name of God. Quote
anatess2 Posted December 30, 2019 Report Posted December 30, 2019 On 12/30/2019 at 5:15 PM, Vort said: I believe so, absolutely. In fact, we are constantly urged throughout scripture to compare ourselves with the Lord. We will always come up short, of course; but the point is that we can get an idea of what our next step might be. The wording of the above verse is interesting to me. What would being greater than Christ have to do with Christ descending below all things? Is God saying that as long as Joseph isn't better than Christ, he should not expect better treatment? I think he's saying rather the opposite of this: You are not greater than Christ, so the things required of Christ will not be required of you. In other words, don't despair and don't even worry. Your pains will be "swallowed up in the joy of Christ". Expand In Relief Society yesterday, we had a discussion about the three D's that Satan uses to keep us from heaven - deception, distraction, discouragement. One of the shields we have from these 3 D's is the scriptures. It is when we read the Scriptures - of what God required of Jesus and what Jesus required of his prophets and apostles - that we realize these things that are discouraging us from continuing on the path are things that have been trod by, not only Jesus' disciplies but Jesus himself. Vort 1 Quote
Traveler Posted December 30, 2019 Report Posted December 30, 2019 When I was a young kid I loved to ski. I grew up with an idol named Tony Seyler. I believe he was to first to win 3 gold Olympic medals in alpine events. I would study his techniques and do everything I could to copy and duplicate him. At great expense to myself, I even copied his outfit - I wore an exact copy of his hat from Austria. Obviously the comparison of myself to Tony was more fantasy than reality. But there is a point. I did not need anyone to tell me anything about Tony - I made myself expert concerning him. No one encouraged me to learn more about Tony and it seemed that should I encounter anyone that recognized the name - I was much more the expert. When I went skiing I did all I could to ski like him. Even when I was not skiing - I thought to act like him. I do not believe learning of Christ and trying to behave as I think he would has been any more difficult. In fact - I believe it to be more satisfying and realistic. The Traveler Quote
Jonah Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 On 12/30/2019 at 4:46 PM, zil said: Pretty sure it's more about making a point, reminding Joseph of something, rather than literally asking a simple yes/no question. He's saying, "Get some perspective, Joseph. I've been through worse. I'll help you endure this. If you're humble." Expand I read this on https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom/Joseph_fired_a_gun, "Joseph was not guilty of murder, because no one died from his shots, and his actions would have been justifiable as self-defense and defense of others even if deaths had resulted" Did the words of 122:7 ("know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good") have any influence on his decision to shoot those who were trying to kill him? I'm confused about the phrase in 122:9 ("... for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less"). I'm assuming it was said in the context of his being imprisoned. What does it mean? Quote
Vort Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 (edited) On 1/9/2020 at 10:46 PM, Jonah said: I'm confused about the phrase in 122:9 ("... for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less"). I'm assuming it was said in the context of his being imprisoned. Expand I'm impressed at your careful reading of a late section in the Doctrine and Covenants, something I hazard a guess that the majority of Latter-day Saints haven't done. But in that case, I'm confused at your confusion. What is there to be confused about? This passage seems eminently straightforward to me. Can you elaborate on what you find so perpexing about it? Edited January 9, 2020 by Vort Quote
zil Posted January 9, 2020 Report Posted January 9, 2020 On 1/9/2020 at 10:46 PM, Jonah said: I read this on https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Joseph_Smith/Martyrdom/Joseph_fired_a_gun, "Joseph was not guilty of murder, because no one died from his shots, and his actions would have been justifiable as self-defense and defense of others even if deaths had resulted" Did the words of 122:7 ("know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good") have any influence on his decision to shoot those who were trying to kill him? I'm confused about the phrase in 122:9 ("... for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less"). I'm assuming it was said in the context of his being imprisoned. What does it mean? Expand Please check the headings for D&C 122 (Liberty jail, 1839) and 135 (Joseph was killed at Carthage, 1844). Two different events, far apart. 1) I'm no history buff, not even Church history, but from what I know, it seems to me Joseph Smith, Jr. always believed in a person's right to defend themselves, so this doesn't seem out of character. What influence his experience in Liberty jail had on his behavior in Carthage jail, I couldn't begin to guess. 2) D&C 122:9 - "their bounds are set, they cannot pass" to me means that there are limits to what evil people will be allowed to do (even though it may not seem that way sometimes), or at least the specific evil people in question. "Thy days are known..." meant the Lord would preserve Joseph Smith, Jr.'s life1 until Joseph had finished the work the Lord had planned. 1From elsewhere (no, I don't have a specific reference - the entire D&C, maybe), it's quite clear that this promise was conditional on Joseph's obedience. Jonah 1 Quote
mordorbund Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 On 1/9/2020 at 11:11 PM, zil said: (no, I don't have a specific reference - the entire D&C, maybe) Expand That's okay. People who participate in these fora know restored scriptures (and the various editions of Gospel Principles) inside and out. We all know what you're talking about. zil 1 Quote
zil Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 On 1/10/2020 at 3:06 AM, mordorbund said: That's okay. People who participate in these fora know restored scriptures (and the various editions of Gospel Principles) inside and out. We all know what you're talking about. Expand Sorry, but I'm lazy. Quote
Jonah Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 On 1/9/2020 at 10:53 PM, Vort said: I'm impressed at your careful reading of a late section in the Doctrine and Covenants, something I hazard a guess that the majority of Latter-day Saints haven't done. But in that case, I'm confused at your confusion. What is there to be confused about? This passage seems eminently straightforward to me. Can you elaborate on what you find so perpexing about it? Expand Did it mean that Joseph Smith should allow what was going to happen without putting up any resistance or do whatever he could to stay alive in light of his days not being less than what he thought? Cheers. Quote
zil Posted January 10, 2020 Report Posted January 10, 2020 On 1/10/2020 at 3:06 AM, mordorbund said: That's okay. People who participate in these fora know restored scriptures (and the various editions of Gospel Principles) inside and out. We all know what you're talking about. Expand OK, first instance: D&C 3:5-15. I'm sure there are other places where the Lord tells Joseph that blessings are conditional on obedience, but I don't think there's an index entry for that, especially not one specific to Joseph himself, and I can't think of search terms that would find them, so this will have to do. Quote
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