Guest Scott

The election

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On 11/5/2020 at 11:49 AM, NeedleinA said:

1. Let's give those (GOP lawyers, etc.) who claim to have evidence time and a platform to share their proof. The fact that MSM may be blocking such evidence doesn't mean that it doesn't exist, in like turn it doesn't mean that it does exist either. Either way, lets give them a fair chance to share their proof first.

Here comes the start of the evidence.
Lets see who in America even will bother to take the time to hear them out.
Lets see which MSM will give them a platform to present it.

Republican, Democrat, Independent, etc. we should all care if what they shared in this update is accurate.
If it is accurate and it is ignored/swept under the rug, then sadly and with deep regret, there goes the end of fair and free elections in the United States.

 

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8 hours ago, NeedleinA said:

Here comes the start of the evidence.
Lets see who in America even will bother to take the time to hear them out.
Lets see which MSM will give them a platform to present it.

Republican, Democrat, Independent, etc. we should all care if what they shared in this update is accurate.
If it is accurate and it is ignored/swept under the rug, then sadly and with deep regret, there goes the end of fair and free elections in the United States.

 

Here’s my reaction to the first ten minutes or so:

—Giuliani’s tone and asides suggest that he’s less interested in converting his opponents (or even the open-minded), than in confirming the suspicions of those already sympathetic to him.

—Yes, it’s significant to now have apparent documentation of various forms of fraudulent electoral behavior; especially to contest the smug academics who keep assuring us that it Never Happens.

—Yes, hopefully this will make some more open-minded Americans consider the issue and think “golly, if there were election fraud, what would it look like and what kind of evidence would it take to demonstrate it?”  That’s always helpful.

—Ultimately, I am not equipped to make any kind of rational, informed judgment on the overall significance of Giuliani’s claims.  He talks of hundreds of affidavits—but there are tens of thousands of precincts, in hundreds of counties, in half a dozen contested states, and each with their own laws and rules and procedures.  My understanding is that at least a couple of the affidavits have been cross-checked and that some of the affiants didn’t see what they thought they were seeing. 

—I’m glad this is going to the courts.  I hope they take a careful, detailed, comprehensive analysis and are able to quantify the scope of the problem.  But this is an incredibly complicated case (several incredibly complicated cases, really) and there’s no way we are going to have a definitive answer before the electoral college meets in December.  Biden will be inaugurated in January.  If Trump starts getting victories in state supreme courts, they will come piecemeal over the course of the next 3-5 years and will be almost universally ignored by the media and hushed up by Facebook and Twitter.

Edited by Just_A_Guy

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Guest Scott

Trump claims voting machines are rigged.  Trump claims that absentee voting is rigged.  Trump claims that mail in ballots are rigged.  Trump claims that in person voting is rigged.

So how exactly does he want people to vote?

Edited by Scott

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6 hours ago, Scott said:

Trump claims voting machines are rigged.  Trump claims that absentee voting is rigged.  Trump claims that mail in ballots are rigged.  Trump claims that in person voting is rigged.

So how exactly does he want people to vote?

I haven't heard the one about him claiming in person voting was rigged.  I've heard his claims about mail in ballots, but I think he pushed having in person voting.

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7 hours ago, Scott said:

Trump claims voting machines are rigged.  Trump claims that absentee voting is rigged.  Trump claims that mail in ballots are rigged.  Trump claims that in person voting is rigged.

So how exactly does he want people to vote?

This is simplistic and doesn't paint the entire picture.  Trump claims those running the system are corrupt and changed the outcome.  Some of his claims are absolutely true, but that doesn't mean those actions were fraudulent.  Some of his claims are that fraud absolutely took place, and we'll see how his claims pan out.

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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I haven't heard the one about him claiming in person voting was rigged.  I've heard his claims about mail in ballots, but I think he pushed having in person voting.

Read his Twitter page.  He even recently shared his twitter from 2012 saying that the 2012 election was rigged because voting machines change votes.20201119_222000.thumb.jpg.3a8a265963ac8527286a70d0c331e1f5.jpg

if course the voting machines deleted his votes and switched them this time too.

Screenshot_20201119-223658_Chrome.thumb.jpg.2f2b850a49e77c4e6fd3719d9e32c36f.jpg

And of course the ballot counters are changing a lot of votes for in person voting roo.

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1 hour ago, Grunt said:

.  Some of his claims are that fraud absolutely took place, and we'll see how his claims pan out.

So far there have been two fraud incidences found in Pennsylvania.  They were done by Republicans:

https://fox8.com/news/pennsylvania-lt-gov-fetterman-asks-for-1m-voter-fraud-reward-id-like-mine-in-sheetz-gift-cards-pls/

https://www.newsweek.com/pennsylvania-lt-gov-alleged-gop-vote-cheats-texas-fraud-reward-1547912?fbclid=IwAR1nyRi-qwUW-tYHwqSEMH_iLRkJVyRxnZvRDVurzqKcXXlMxyb7s8ISkAI

Edited by Scott

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8 hours ago, Scott said:

Trump claims voting machines are rigged.  Trump claims that absentee voting is rigged.  Trump claims that mail in ballots are rigged.  Trump claims that in person voting is rigged.

So how exactly does he want people to vote?

This is an unfair characterization of what is he's claiming.

  • I am not aware of any claim that WIDESPREAD in-person voting is rigged.  But some people have been arrested for trying to vote multiple times with fake IDs.
  • All the "rigged" claims are about the details, not the overall systems.  We can use the same overall systems, but still change some details so they are not rigged.

E.g. As they open mail-in ballots, there needs to be some method of matching the names, addresses, and other personal information to the ballot.  Many states have that.  Some states only have that on the packaging. 

  • The ballots themselves may have a name or not.  This doesn't make any sense.
  • If they were mailed in, where was the postmark?  It's thrown away so there is no way to trace it.
  • Trump pointed out the difference between absentee ballots vs the mail-in ballots (a small, but significant distinction). But because you're only getting info from the legacy media, you don't understand the difference.  Absentee ballots suffer from SOME of the same weaknesses as mail-in ballots.  But they also have some safeguards that mail-in ballots do not have.

Some voting machines are rigged. This was proven many times.  Yes, plausible deniability says that it could have just been an "honest" computer glitch.  But isn't it funny how all such glitches are in favor of Democrats?  Yeah, right. 

How do we do it? How about this>>

  • We tell everyone when voting day is and when early voting is.
  • We have a way of keeping track of who is coming in to vote and who has already voted, like... voter ID or something...
  • We don't accept ballots that are later than is announced.
  • We have rules about what voter information is required for mail-ins and we stick to that.
  • We don't let someone vote without an ID.
  • When accepting, opening, counting, etc. all the votes, we have bi-partisan staff looking at every item and signing off on the receipt with an appropriate amount of traceable information on the voter and the ballot.

We actually have these safeguards in place in many areas.  But the areas Trump is contesting, they didn't follow them.  So, why do you accept these results when these safeguards weren't followed?

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10 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Here’s my reaction to the first ten minutes or so:

I know your reaction was only based on the first ten minutes. Curious if you happened to then watch the rest of it to the end?

Personality differences aside, is the evidence correct? If so, it would be a shame for Americans to simply dismiss it because they don't care for the presenters themselves?

I feel like Giuliani offered up the small potatoes (localized issues), while Sidney Powell (38:00) presented the larger, most concerning and troubling potato of them all. If what she described is true, it overshadows all the small potatoes by leaps and bounds. If this software can manipulate the votes after the fact then all the safeguards of the voting process up to that point mean absolutely nothing. This software, if true, has already affected the outcome of other nations and has now made it's way here.

If it is here manipulating votes in certain states that use it, what is the point of voting in those states any longer? Honestly.
This is why, as Americans, we should care to find out if this is in fact true or not.  Biden, Trump, Republican, Democrat... none of that matters if our elections can/have been manipulated on a large scale.

America first......................................................Trump/Biden, Democrat/Republican, Conservative/Liberal far distant concerns.

 

Edited by NeedleinA

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1 hour ago, Scott said:

Read his Twitter page.  He even recently shared his twitter from 2012 saying that the 2012 election was rigged because voting machines change votes.20201119_222000.thumb.jpg.3a8a265963ac8527286a70d0c331e1f5.jpg

if course the voting machines deleted his votes and switched them this time too.

Screenshot_20201119-223658_Chrome.thumb.jpg.2f2b850a49e77c4e6fd3719d9e32c36f.jpg

And of course the ballot counters are changing a lot of votes for in person voting roo.

SOOO...if I understand this, he isn't against voting in person, but against some of the companies that are creating and running the software (or even the hardware) on the machines themselves...

Which...makes sense.  Hearsay on my part, as I am not that computer literate, but I do have a child that has degrees in computer science, according to what I understand them to have told me is that the voting machines are hilariously insecure.  That it wouldn't take much from anyone to hack them, and that the US needs better Cybersecurity over it's elections...not that Trump has done anything  (that I've heard of) to make them more secure.

PS: This kid, currently, I think is pretty far right though, so one could take that into consideration.

Something else to consider, people think this is merely the Republicans wondering about this.  I AM NOT a Republican (and didn't even support Trump, as many here should also know) though admittedly as an independent I DO lean conservative (compared to the rest of the US, but in these forums it actually probably seems far left and liberal) but I think some of the things being tossed up are valid concerns.  Biden just won Georgia, which I'm not that displeased about, but at the same time...alarmed about.  I feel that there is voting tampering going on in Georgia despite their best efforts to prevent it...Georgia being blue is laughable.

Of course, it could be enough  Georgians felt similar to others (such as I) who did not really like Trump as President, so I could accept that perhaps that the state went for Biden, but the Senate races being as close as they are...I'm still not buying it...at all.  Personal Bias forming an opinion on my part...probably...but it just does not smell right (in relation to the smell test).   Something just does not seem right, especially with how BOTH races in question came under contest...one of those districts...MAYBE...but in the other one...there's one there is NO WAY that happened unless something strange (such as tampering with votes or illegal votes) occurred...in my bias (of course) right now.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

Some voting machines are rigged. This was proven many times.  Yes, plausible deniability says that it could have just been an "honest" computer glitch.  But isn't it funny how all such glitches are in favor of Democrats?  Yeah, right. 

Do you have a source for this?

Quote

How do we do it? How about this>>

  • We tell everyone when voting day is and when early voting is.
  • We have a way of keeping track of who is coming in to vote and who has already voted, like... voter ID or something...
  • We don't accept ballots that are later than is announced.
  • We have rules about what voter information is required for mail-ins and we stick to that.
  • We don't let someone vote without an ID.
  • When accepting, opening, counting, etc. all the votes, we have bi-partisan staff looking at every item and signing off on the receipt with an appropriate amount of traceable information on the voter and the ballot.

Mail in votes should still be allowed, especially during a pandemic.  If you have to send an id with a vote, fine.   There should be a law that any (of age) citizen can obtain a voter id then. 

Edited by Scott

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15 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

SOOO...if I understand this, he isn't against voting in person, but against some of the companies that are creating and running the software (or even the hardware) on the machines themselves...

What I posted was only two out of hundreds of twitter post Trump has made.  He said with in person voting counters are changing votes, even without voting machines.

I'm not going to post every single Tweet Trump has made, but you don't need an account to view them:

https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^author

So far there has been zero evidence of widespread voter fraud and the people caught doing fraud were Republicans.

There were some plots uncovered about people trying to commit voter fraud before the election (i.e. requesting ballots for homeless people), but they were exposed and caught before the voting.  

Edited by Scott

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2 minutes ago, Scott said:

in person voting counters are changing votes, even without voting machines.

Yes.
1. In person voting concerns, smaller potatoes (addressed by Giuliani yesterday)
2. Voting machine concerns, larger potato (addressed by Powell yesterday)

 

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13 minutes ago, Scott said:

Mail in votes should still be allowed, especially during a pandemic.  If you have to send an id with a vote, fine.   There should be a law that any (of age) citizen can obtain a voter id then. 

There actually is.  I've posted it before, but ANYONE who is a citizen, in every state that I know of currently allows people to go and get a State Picture ID.  Normally one can get a drivers license which also works, but for those who cannot get a drivers license they also can get a Picture ID issued from the State.  This also has an ID number in all the states I know of (though it could be a state may not have that id number...unsure on ALL the states) which also can be used to identify someone if they need it.

This is why I think we should do away with Voter registration and go off the ID records.  ANYONE can get it at the spot Driver's licenses are given out normally, though normally most go for a Drivers license.  I have known several who got a State Picture ID instead (most were under the age of 18, but I've also known older folks who could no longer drive to get one as well as a few adults who never got their drivers license, my grand daughter was one of them for a while...though I'm not sure if she has ever gotten her driver's license yet.  Last time I checked which was over a year ago was that at the age of 22 she still had not gotten one, but she had a State Picture ID).

Correlate the State ID records and that is your license to vote as well right there.  You can show up the day of, no need to register before hand or anything like that.

Edited by JohnsonJones
erasing part and posting the section quoted that I was actually replying to.

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31 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

 is that the voting machines are hilariously insecure.  That it wouldn't take much from anyone to hack them,

Quote

Sidney Powell: (39:40)
Now the software itself was created with so many variables and so many back doors that can be hooked up to the internet or a thumbdrive stuck in it or whatever, but one of its most characteristic features is its ability to flip votes. It can set and run an algorithm that probably ran all over the country to take a certain percentage of votes from President Trump and flip them to President Biden which we might never have uncovered had the votes for President Trump not been so overwhelming in so many of these states that it broke the algorithm that had been plugged into the system and that’s what caused them to have to shut down in the states they shut down in.

 

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Guest Scott

What I have learned in the past two elections.

2016:  Democrats are poor losers.

2020:  Republicans are poor losers.

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14 minutes ago, Scott said:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/nov/19/sidney-powell/trump-lawyer-falsely-claims-voting-technology-comp/


Of course though, I'm betting that you are going to say that Fact Checking sites are all wrong too.

I'm betting that rather than hear my actual opinion, you will kindly tell me my opinion instead. 

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6 minutes ago, NeedleinA said:

I'm betting that rather than hear my actual opinion, you will kindly tell me my opinion instead. 

So I am I right or wrong about your opinion on the fact check?

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46 minutes ago, Scott said:

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/nov/19/sidney-powell/trump-lawyer-falsely-claims-voting-technology-comp/


Of course though, I'm betting that you are going to say that Fact Checking sites are all wrong too.

No one says that fact-checking sites are all wrong. They say that the fact-checking sites are biased and unreliable.

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23 minutes ago, Vort said:

No one says that fact-checking sites are all wrong. They say that the fact-checking sites are biased and unreliable.

OK fair enough.  And what do you say about this specific fact check concerning Sidney Powell?

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2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Biden just won Georgia, which I'm not that displeased about, but at the same time...alarmed about.  I feel that there is voting tampering going on in Georgia despite their best efforts to prevent it...Georgia being blue is laughable.

This shouldn't surprise you. Stacey Abrams' 2018 loss in the gubernatorial election galvanized the black vote there, especially after evidence of voter disenfranchisement came to light. Couple that with recent racial justice movements and a president that is widely considered to be notoriously racist by a significant segment of the black community and you have a recipe for record black turnout in the Democrats' favor. Democrats often make the mistake of overestimating their support in the black communities. I think the GOP may have underestimated it this time around. 

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

but the Senate races being as close as they are...I'm still not buying it...at all. 

There's a simple explanation for this. A significant number of moderate GOP voters (the "silent majority" Trump was counting on) probably voted straight R in every race except the Presidential slot. 

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Four years ago, I hypothesized that a Trump victory in the 2016 election would be far more damaging to the GOP than a Trump loss. You can read my prediction here, in two posts towards the bottom of the page. I didn't get it exactly right. I expected four years of GOP infighting between "establishment" Republicans and the ideological firebrands of the party. Instead, the GOP has been remarkably unified. This post-election controversy will test that unity. The expected panderers (Romney and Flake) have already wagged their fingers and furrowed their brows. Now we wait to see who will sink with the Trump ship and who will run for the lifeboats. So far, a lot of them seem very confident in their ability to swim. 

This is the statement from yesterday's press conference that the GOP decided to highlight on their official Twitter account. 

Screenshot_20201119-160848_Twitter.thumb.jpg.1c894e9b7e4e7d9329c1e98c25f8e5ed.jpg

 

A few hours later, this was tweetedby the chairwoman of the Minnesota GOP. Biden won Minnesota by over 200,000 votes. 

Screenshot_20201120-082000_Twitter.thumb.jpg.f94f18be64c464e6b732912868ba2272.jpg

I'm not saying that legal challenges shouldn't be pursued, but these people are talking like Trump definitely won the election and they won't accept any other result. People are risking their careers and reputations for a polarizing "leader" who doesn't give a rat's posterior about anyone but himself.

As it stands now, 31 of Trump's court challenges have been withdrawn or dismissed. 2 have been won (both in PA, and neither of them will change the result). What's going to happen in the very likely event that Joe Biden is sworn in as our 46th President in two months? Is the GOP going to expect voters to suddenly forget how hard they worked to undermine public trust in our electoral process? I may have been wrong about the GOP fracturing under Trump, but I think that division is still coming. Trump, for better or worse, has held the GOP together like glue. I don't think that unity will last after he's gone. If it somehow does last, then the nation will judge them collectively for the chaos they actively fueled during the transition of power. The Dems weren't exactly graceful four years ago, but Hillary conceded within 24 hours of the election, and Obama did his due diligence during the transition. I don't think Democrats are the only ones who miss that type of decorum in the aftermath of an election. 

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