JohnsonJones

Well, we may not see those investigators again...

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Well, today an interesting thing happened in Sacrament meeting.

We had some investigators there, or at least I hadn't seen them before with the missionaries.  The missionaries were wearing masks, and in fact, between me, a doctor, and them, we were the ONLY ones wearing masks (the investigators were wearing masks as well).

Now, in all common sense I imagine that people should know that there is an explosion of Covid-19 cases going around.  I imagine the missionaries told them the general attitude of some of the members in our area towards it.  I think that these people would at least have looked around and seen the numbers of members who were not wearing masks.

The Speaker gets up today and starts that they've been sick this week with Covid, but that the Lord has blessed them to be well enough to come and speak today.  They laughed about it and continued on.

Those investigators got up so quickly (almost immediately after the speaker said this) and practically ran out of the Chapel.  It was fast enough to surprise me.  They appeared to have a startled/surprised/alarmed look on their face.  Not sure how else to say it.   It's my interpretation of their face as they rushed out, I'm not positive exactly what they were feeling, but their eyes were not happy looking eyes as they rushed out.

Now, it is possible they had just gotten some bad news or a relative had been rushed off with an emergency or something, but the timing of it was right after the speaker proclaimed he had Covid. 

I imagine if that was their response, we won't be seeing them again in sacrament...or at least for a while.  It's a shame because that's the first investigator's I've seen at the Church for months.

I'm TORN over whether the speaker said the right thing or not.  Saying they had Covid was a GOOD thing because it told us that they actually had it recently and could infect all of us there.  I casually made my way to the Lobby along with my wife after that, though I didn't leave.  I tried not to make it obvious either.  On the otherhand, saying that in the middle of sacrament meeting seems to be an unwise thing to do.  I may be wrong as to the reason the individuals left (though the timing and speed seem to indicate why they left to me), but it may be that saying things like the speaker did (and I assume they were telling the truth, it could have been some twisted form of a joke seeing how they laughed after saying it) is not the best thing to say in a Sacrament meeting talk.  In fact, that is the other feeling I have is that the speaker should have not said anything about this at all. 

As I said, I'm torn on what should have been said.  The Speaker was good to inform all of us, but at the same time I feel stating this caused a little more turmoil than if the speaker had just remained silent.

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When did he contract COVID? How long has he had symptoms?  Here, they are quarantining people for 5 days.   Someone catches COVID on Monday, we'll see them at Church the next Sunday.   He may have said something silly or perhaps hadn't expressed himself very well.   

My first meeting was open mic night.  I heard some odd things, but I still came back.  Heck, I could write a book about the crappy things that were said to me by members, ex-members, and ex-members that pretend to be members while I was an investigator.  I'm still here. 

We're imperfect people trying to follow Christ.  He understands that.

Edited by Grunt

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8 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

The Speaker gets up today and starts that they've been sick this week with Covid, but that the Lord has blessed them to be well enough to come and speak today.  They laughed about it and continued on.

Those investigators got up so quickly (almost immediately after the speaker said this) and practically ran out of the Chapel.  It was fast enough to surprise me.  They appeared to have a startled/surprised/alarmed look on their face. 

Heh.  The last two years have sure been a fun time. God's children have a brand new thing to develop strong opinions and fight over.

 

For the record, if they were symptomatic on Monday, and Tue/Wed/Thu/Fri/Sat were zero symptoms, then they're following the latest CDC guidelines:

Quote

People with COVID-19 should isolate for 5 days and if they are asymptomatic or their symptoms are resolving (without fever for 24 hours), follow that by 5 days of wearing a mask when around others to minimize the risk of infecting people they encounter. 

 

 

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So I came down with COVID symptoms last Saturday, skipped church that Sunday, eventually tested positive. I felt fine by Friday and, having finished my 5 days according to current instruction, attended church today, wearing a mask. Didn't tell a soul I had been sick, though.

Edited by Backroads

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3 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I'm TORN over whether the speaker said the right thing or not. 

I’m 100% positive that the speaker meant no harm whatsoever in saying that. Dude did absolutely nothing wrong at all. 
 

Maybe the investigators were freaked out by something else, maybe they just wanted to leave, or maybe they honestly felt like they were in in danger by staying there and wanted to be safe. 

Perhaps the missionaries can contact them later today and see what was up?

Edited by LDSGator

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2 hours ago, LDSGator said:

I’m 100% positive that the speaker meant no harm whatsoever in saying that. Dude did absolutely nothing wrong at all. 
 

Maybe the investigators were freaked out by something else, maybe they just wanted to leave, or maybe they honestly felt like they were in in danger by staying there and wanted to be safe. 

Perhaps the missionaries can contact them later today and see what was up?

As they were investigators and were sitting next to the missionaries I would hope the missionaries follow up.

It was a strange thing that happened at church today making me think perhaps sometimes speakers shouldn't say certain things.  However, on the other side of the coin I'd rather know than not know, kind of opposing ideas conflicting with each other.

Edited by JohnsonJones

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4 hours ago, Grunt said:

When did he contract COVID? How long has he had symptoms?  Here, they are quarantining people for 5 days.   Someone catches COVID on Monday, we'll see them at Church the next Sunday.   He may have said something silly or perhaps hadn't expressed himself very well.   

My first meeting was open mic night.  I heard some odd things, but I still came back.  Heck, I could write a book about the crappy things that were said to me by members, ex-members, and ex-members that pretend to be members while I was an investigator.  I'm still here. 

We're imperfect people trying to follow Christ.  He understands that.

He didn't really go much into it.  It appears he was able to talk today.  It sounds like he was having a harder time earlier this week whenever he was down with it, but I don't know anything else. 

Didn't get a chance to meet the investigators either.  I SHOULD have introduced myself before the meeting began, but I was just sitting back and waiting instead.

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15 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

As they were investigators and were sitting next to the missionaries I would hope the missionaries follow up.

It was a strange thing that happened at church today making me think perhaps sometimes speakers shouldn't say certain things.  However, on the other side of the coin I'd rather know than not know, kind of opposing ideas conflicting with each other.

Totally understand. 

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5 hours ago, Grunt said:

ex-members that pretend to be members while I was an investigator.

Perhaps I lead a sheltered life, but I don't think I've ever come across ex-members pretending to be members and I'm pretty sure that none of my ward friends have either. How often did you encounter such people? 

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16 hours ago, askandanswer said:
22 hours ago, Grunt said:

ex-members that pretend to be members while I was an investigator.

Perhaps I lead a sheltered life, but I don't think I've ever come across ex-members pretending to be members and I'm pretty sure that none of my ward friends have either. How often did you encounter such people? 

I've never met one IRL, but I've encountered them countless times online since the mid '90's.  Back in the "antimormon heyday", it was a tactic to show up on some message board or forum, pretending to be an active LDS.  After a few dozen posts to virtue signal and gain trust, the critic would then use that trust to expose folks to anti points via 'innocent' questions.  When caught and called on it, I have literally heard the excuse "I was lying for the lord".  

I haven't encountered one of those folks in half a dozen years or more.  Ever since the bottom dropped out of the antimormon book market, and congregations stopped paying itinerant speech givers to deliver sermons on the 'monstrous mormon cult', folks sort of lost interest.  That, along with SLC hosting the 2002 Olympics, and everyone knowing Mitt Romney and Harry Reid, it just got harder to convince people we're evil schemers out to kidnap your daughters into polygamous slavery.

Then around 4-5 years ago, we had McKenna Denson and her counterpart who would post hidden camera videos of temple ceremonies, put on their Sunday best one testimony meeting, and she got up and began "bearing her testimony" and calling out a member of the congregation for alleged sexual abuse, while her counterpart recorded everything on video.   That happened a couple of times - I remember seeing one youtube video that showed multiple camera angles, meaning they had two camerapeople in the audience.  One was obviously recording, the other was behind and more sneaky, hoping to catch someone assaulting someone.

 

Edited by NeuroTypical

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21 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I've never met one IRL, but I've encountered them countless times online since the mid '90's.  Back in the "antimormon heyday", it was a tactic to show up on some message board or forum, pretending to be an active LDS.  After a few dozen posts to virtue signal and gain trust, the critic would then use that trust to expose folks to anti points via 'innocent' questions.  When caught and called on it, I have literally heard the excuse "I was lying for the lord".  

I haven't encountered one of those folks in half a dozen years or more.  Ever since the bottom dropped out of the antimormon book market, and congregations stopped paying itinerant speech givers to deliver sermons on the 'monstrous mormon cult', folks sort of lost interest.  That, along with SLC hosting the 2002 Olympics, and everyone knowing Mitt Romney and Harry Reid, it just got harder to convince people we're evil schemers out to kidnap your daughters into polygamous slavery.

Then around 4-5 years ago, we had McKenna Denson and her counterpart who would post hidden camera videos of temple ceremonies, put on their Sunday best one testimony meeting, and she got up and began "bearing her testimony" and calling out a member of the congregation for alleged sexual abuse, while her counterpart recorded everything on video.   That happened a couple of times - I remember seeing one youtube video that showed multiple camera angles, meaning they had two camerapeople in the audience.  One was obviously recording, the other was behind and more sneaky, hoping to catch someone assaulting someone.

 

There's also the internet gutter brawls of the 2000s, where minister after minister and author after author were exposed for what they truly were. 

People would read one or two hostile works, assume this was all they needed, and get completely demolished, either forcing them to actually *investigate* what they'd been told or resulting in them going mad from the realization that their entire world view was based on incorrect information. 

This in turn would usually result in ministers, authors, and other higher-up counter-cult figures getting tagged in, and they would almost inevitably embarrass themselves through their own misconduct. 

I think after a while, most people in the Christian counter-cult finally caught on to the fact that we - and others - were more than willing to push back, ask questions of our own, and bring our own evidences into play. A lot of the old games don't get played anymore except by the truly desperate, and a lot of the old authors seem to be falling out of favor. 

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21 hours ago, Backroads said:

So I came down with COVID symptoms last Saturday, skipped church that Sunday, eventually tested positive. I felt fine by Friday and, having finished my 5 days according to current instruction, attended church today, wearing a mask. Didn't tell a soul I had been sick, though.

So many people in my stake are sick that the stake presidency asked us not to have second hour this past weekend. 

I normally go to the YSA branch despite being too old simply because they so often need extra priesthood to help out, and it was practically deserted. 

The branch president actually had to be the speaker because the other people who were supposed to show up were absent. 

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1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

I've never met one IRL, but I've encountered them countless times online since the mid '90's.  Back in the "antimormon heyday", it was a tactic to show up on some message board or forum, pretending to be an active LDS.  After a few dozen posts to virtue signal and gain trust, the critic would then use that trust to expose folks to anti points via 'innocent' questions.  When caught and called on it, I have literally heard the excuse "I was lying for the lord".  

!!

I'm surprised to hear at the lengths that some people will go to demonstrate their hatred, ignorance and fear. Surely if you no longer believe someting, all you should do is just walk away and leave it alone. I dont understand the need to try and bring others with you.

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1 hour ago, askandanswer said:

!!

I'm surprised to hear at the lengths that some people will go to demonstrate their hatred, ignorance and fear. Surely if you no longer believe someting, all you should do is just walk away and leave it alone. I dont understand the need to try and bring others with you.

I've mostly met them online, even on this forum.  It caused me issues as an investigator because when people act like members in speech and make suggestions or give advice as members, it's confusing when you realize they aren't people you should be taking advice from.   There are also different types.  Some are ex-members whose intentions are bashing the church, turning investigators away, or leading people astray.  Some identify as members, but I can't for the life of me understand why because they don't keep any of their covenants or attend sacrament.  They just seem to like hanging around members.   This is most frustrating as an investigator because they are generally accepted, yet like to dance around the edges of doctrine and push the envelope, usually in private where faithful members won't correct them.   

These people aren't a threat to me now, but I wonder how many people they turned away from the Church?   I wonder why they still associate with the Church under false pretenses?   I'm not sure what they get out of it.

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20 hours ago, askandanswer said:

!!

I'm surprised to hear at the lengths that some people will go to demonstrate their hatred, ignorance and fear. Surely if you no longer believe something, all you should do is just walk away and leave it alone. I don't understand the need to try and bring others with you.

I was recently talking to a relative that has left the Gospel of Jesus Christ and they were quite bitter.  They felt they had been lied to their entire life.  They said they had tried their best in life while in the church to follow the LORD but they never received a witness of the truth.  I did not see that when I watched what they would do.  They would excuse their actions in pornography and other sins.

Now they are directionless but say they are more happy in their life.  I think the person is lying to their own mind because I do not see the fruit of happiness in them.

It is very sad when you watch someone leave the LORD.

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On why some members who have known the truth of the gospel seem to turn so hard against the Church after leaving it, it has been spoken of in the Book of Mormon regarding this type of thing.

Alma 24:30

Quote

30 And thus we can plainly discern, that after a people have been once enlightened by the Spirit of God, and have had great knowledge of things pertaining to righteousness, and then have fallen away into sin and transgression, they become more hardened, and thus their state becomes worse than though they had never known these things.

and in a similar vein in Alma 47:36

Quote

36 Now these dissenters, having the same instruction and the same information of the Nephites, yea, having been instructed in the same knowledge of the Lord, nevertheless, it is strange to relate, not long after their dissensions they became more hardened and impenitent, and more wild, wicked and ferocious than the Lamanites—drinking in with the traditions of the Lamanites; giving way to indolence, and all manner of lasciviousness; yea, entirely forgetting the Lord their God.

 

Edited by JohnsonJones

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