The Vellum Hypothesis

[Vort]

I have an idea about how God has used the earth for his eternal purposes. It has been kicking around my skull for a few decades now. I am absolutely sure it's not original with me; doubtless I have heard others suggest such ideas and have simply been thinking about their ideas since then. This qualifies as speculation, and I certainly don't pretend it's some sort of revealed truth. Just an idea. But I find it intriguing and somewhat plausible, so I want to run it by those on this august forum and see what you think. For lack of a better term, I'll call it the Vellum Hypothesis.

First, a quick explanatory note: Vellum is calfskin used for writing on. In ancient times, writing media were expensive and laboriously produced. For example, papyrus was local to Egypt and not typically of great quality. Many ancient scribes preferred to write on vellum, where possible. Still, at one calf sacrifice per five or so vellum folios, it was not a cheap method of mass production.

If a vellum folio had been previously written on and it was decided that it should be repurposed to use to write something more important (or more urgent) on, the old writing would be scraped off the folio. The piece of vellum would then be available to write something else on. In this case, the previously used vellum was called a palimpsest. Interestingly, the old writing would not be completely removed; faint traces of the writing would often still be present on the palimpsest. Today, we can use ancient palimpsests to read not only what is written on them, but what was written on them before they were reused. For example, study of the Archimedes Palimpsest has recovered heretofore unknown treatises by Archimedes.

We can profitably view nature itself, the birds and bees and bugs and especially the microflora, microfauna, and physical structure of the earth (air, water, land masses, etc.) as the canvas upon which we, as works of God, are painted. We have existence outside of this physical reality, but we exist for now within this reality and are defined by it. Take away the atmosphere, water, and/or microflora that surround and permeate us, and we cannot survive, any more than a Rembrandt portrait can survive being peeled off of its canvas.

What I have termed the Vellum Hypothesis is the idea that this mother earth we live upon is a vellum on which we have been written. But this earthly vellum is actually a palimpsest, having hosted many forms of life for millions, or more likely billions, of years before we ever arrived. We have had many "scraping the old ink off" events, such as the Chicxulub impact 67 million years ago that wiped out pretty much all of the dinosaurs, along with about 80% of all species then alive. The so-called Snowball Earth events, vastly older than the Chicxulub impact, probably had similar or perhaps much harsher effects. Even in relatively recent times, the last two or three million years, there have been ice ages that wiped out much life and greatly modified our physical environment.

I know of no evidence of pre-human human-like intelligence. But humans appear to have been around for quite a while. We do not know exactly when Adam and Eve lived, but the normal Bible-based chronology (both Christian and Jewish) puts them more or less at around 4000 BC. I think that number can be considered variable, but I doubt there would be many Bible believers who would suggest that Adam and Eve lived much more than, say, 10,000 years ago. Interestingly, this coincides with the approximate end of the most recent ice age. Yet it appears than anatomically modern humans have been around for maybe as long as 200,000 years.

I wonder if the Lord has used this earth more than just for Adam's generation. I wonder if, perhaps, previous people, children of God much like ourselves, populated this planet. I wonder if our own genetic makeup demonstrates the palimpsest of our biological ancestry and our descendance from them. If so, we are apparently sealed off from previous iterations of human activity, and in any case we have our own problems to worry about. But it makes for some fun stuff to think about. As I said, nothing really original, except maybe the fanciful name I gave it.

I put this thread in "LDS Gospel Discussion" because most of us are LDS and this is meant to be a discussion. But for the record, nothing about what I wrote above qualifies as LDS gospel doctrine. Just so that we're clear on that matter.

[Vort]

It appears that there is a Velum (one "L") Hypothesis in evolutionary circles, having to do with how the jaw is supposed to have developed. But the one-L "velum" is the Latin word for "sail", as in a ship's sail, so that's a different thing from the two-L "vellum", which is from the old French for "calf", as in a baby cow.

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, Vort said:

It appears that there is a Velum (one "L") Hypothesis in evolutionary circles, having to do with how the jaw is supposed to have developed. But the one-L "velum" is the Latin word for "sail", as in a ship's sail, so that's a different thing from the two-L "vellum", which is from the old French for "calf", as in a baby cow.

I wonder if the architectural discipline might inform the overall discussion.

Architects would prefer a semi-transparent paper (vellum) whereby he might have one sheet for the foundation, another for the floor framing, another for the floorplan, another for the plumbing, another for the 2nd floor, etc.  They could all be laid over each other to ensure that the same dimensions were being used for each floor.  Chases (chimney, utilities, etc.) would line up from floor to floor.

Vellum tended to be a plastic/paper mixture in the fiber matrix pressed into a sheet.  It was fine for normal use.  But young drafters made enough mistakes where erasing made it expensive.

Eventually, they started using Mylar.  The Mylar sheets were pretty hefty.  They needed to be thick enough that they would not easily be distorted from rolling and unrolling all the time, not to mention the durability to withstand an architect's sharpened pencil -- or compass needle for that matter. One problem was getting the ink to stay on the plastic.  If you've ever seen a Mylar balloon that had been handled heavily, you probably noticed that the silvery surface wore of rather easily, revealing a transparent membrane.

Two solutions were used throughout the industry.

• They spread a sticky coating on the plastic to allow for ink to remain fast.  This had the disadvantage of only allowing a single erasure.  More than that, it tended to reveal the smooth, completely transparent substrate.
• They sand-blasted one side to allow the ink to remain fast within the valleys of the surface.  This did allow for erasure with application of proper chemicals (for some inks, this meant plain water).  But there was a ghost image that might remain.

Regarding the vellum hypothesis you mentioned, this perspective changes why there may have been previous versions.  Instead of "fixing a mistake" (which would most likely be the hypothesis commonly believed) we can look at it as a necessary step to designing the final product.

A foundation design is required to define what can be placed upon it.  If you have a perimeter footing, we need the 1st floor framing to match the edges of the concrete stemwalls.  We can't really place a wood frame on top of earth directly.  It has to be set on a solid foundation.

Then the floor plan will dictate what we do on top of the floor framing.  Walls are often framed in what is called "platform framing".  So those walls are dictated by the floor framing below.  Then that somewhat limits what second floor framing (and ultimately 2nd floor walls) can be built on top of that.  Then the second floor dictates the roof design to some degree.  But none of the portions can be properly built without having built the lower parts of the structure.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Carborendum

[askandanswer]

I think that one potential obstacle the vellum hyphothesis would have to deal with is the fossil record. If previous versions of humanity were of a similar quality to the existing version then I suspect we would have found more evidence of them, either in the form of skeletons or artefacts. Even an event as cataclysmic as the Chicxulub impact left behind plenty of evidence of the life forms that preceded it.

A second potential obstacle, and I admit, this sounds a bit strange, is the possible lack of space when the Earth is in its celestial state. If the Earth is our eternal home after this life for all who have ever lived on it, and if the current version of humanity is just one of many versions of all who have lived on Earth, it could become quite crowded if we are all living in the same space at the same time.

[Carborendum]

24 minutes ago, askandanswer said:

I think that one potential obstacle the vellum hyphothesis would have to deal with is the fossil record. If previous versions of humanity were of a similar quality to the existing version then I suspect we would have found more evidence of them, either in the form of skeletons or artefacts. Even an event as cataclysmic as the Chicxulub impact left behind plenty of evidence of the life forms that preceded it.

A second potential obstacle, and I admit, this sounds a bit strange, is the possible lack of space when the Earth is in its celestial state. If the Earth is our eternal home after this life for all who have ever lived on it, and if the current version of humanity is just one of many versions of all who have lived on Earth, it could become quite crowded if we are all living in the same space at the same time.

Well, that's a different take than what I gathered.  I was considering Vort's post as a mere extension of what we read in the scriptures already. 

Ever since Adam, there have been people of God who fell away.  Many of them had apostasies so complete that there was little to no continuation of priesthood.  It had to be restored.  These are called dispensations.

What if there was something on a greater scale that paralleled such activity?  For discussion purposes, let's call them "eons".  The eon we're familiar with is the eon since Adam.  In this eon, we've had many dispensations.  And we only have a spiritual history since that Adam & Eve pairing.

What if there were previous eons that had not been recorded within our known scriptures?  How many dispensations did they go through?  Why did they have a complete apocalypse with no continuation of seed?  What if there were many eons in which this occurred?  What if that was the reason Adam and Eve had to start all over again.

The earth was formed.  But mankind had an end multiple times.  And each eon then had to begin again with a new creation of man and woman.

[Traveler]

I am somewhat conflicted concerning the history of this planet.   One of the foremost experts in the paleontology of the dinosaur’s era is Ph.D. Robert T. Bakker.  He has written a book that everybody ought to read titled, “The Dinosaur Heresies”.  As a side note the paleontologist character in the original Juristic Park movie series is taken from Robert Bakker.  The reason I reference this book is because Ph.D. Bakker presents some astonishing evidence in strong support of @Vort ‘s Vellum Hypothesis.

One of the heresies pointed out is that our past dinosaurs are far to large to exist on our current planet and its gravity.  In reality, it is not just the dinosaurs but also the vast array of fonta and flora.   Currently the largest a land creature can be is slightly larger than an elephant – basically the size of the ice-age Mastodons.    Theropods, especially the Titanosaur is too big to exist – unless the planet at that time was an orb with much less mass – gravity.

The Genesis account of the creation do not appear to have any level of accuracy – unless our earth was created somewhere other than as explained in the standard scientific or religious model.  I have pointed out that day 3 and 4 make no senses – unless this earth was initially foreign to this solar system – which would explain a lot of inconsistencies in believed observations from both science and religion.  

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I have pointed out that day 3 and 4 make no senses – unless this earth was initially foreign to this solar system – which would explain a lot of inconsistencies in believed observations from both science and religion.

A) Brigham Young taught that the earth was created near God (can't remember if he specified Kolob or not) and that it fell when Adam did, into this solar system (ETA: Or maybe it was that the whole solar system fell, I can't remember for sure - it was years ago that I first heard this).  The only scriptural support I can think of for this is Abraham 5:13:

Quote

13 But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the time that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die. Now I, Abraham, saw that it was after the Lord’s time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed unto Adam his reckoning.

B) I will be using the P of GP accounts of the creation for this sequence:

• Day 1: God creates light and divides it from the darkness - there's the light for your plants.
• Day 2: We get some land and water - good for plants.
• Day 3: A quote will hopefully be more effective, but note that in Abraham (I always preferred Abraham, which is closer to what we learn in the temple, BTW) does NOT say that plants were created, rather, that the earth was prepared to bring forth plants (at some future point):

Quote

Abraham 4:11 And the Gods said: Let us prepare the earth to bring forth grass; the herb yielding seed; the fruit tree yielding fruit, after his kind, whose seed in itself yieldeth its own likeness upon the earth; and it was so, even as they ordered.

12 And the Gods organized the earth to bring forth grass from its own seed, and the herb to bring forth herb from its own seed, yielding seed after his kind; and the earth to bring forth the tree from its own seed, yielding fruit, whose seed could only bring forth the same in itself, after his kind; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.

13 And it came to pass that they numbered the days; from the evening until the morning they called night; and it came to pass, from the morning until the evening they called day; and it was the third time.

• Day 4: The sun, moon, and stars are created.  More light so now the earth, having been prepared, can bring forth plants.

IMO, there's no problem with the sequence, at least, not in Abraham.

 

Bonus: I like the little, not-so-subtle hints (here and with the animals) about "after his kind" and "could only bring forth the same in itself, after his kind" - plenty of no nonsense there about our origins, destiny, and gender in there.

Edited June 14, 2023 by zil2

[Emmanuel Goldstein]

For the last few years I have been looking into the myths about civilizations like Atlantis, Lumeria and Olympus. I think you are absolutely correct in that this earth is re-used for the Lord's purposes. I think that the last major reset was at the Younger Dryas impact around 10,000 BC. This was the end of the Atlantis or Adamic civilization and the Flood of Noah, if not triggered by this, was at the same time. I think the length of time that we have assumed from Genesis is incorrect. There is just too much archeological evidence of civilizations that go far enough back that the flood could not have happened 5,500 years ago. I think it is likely that the flood of Atlantis and the flood of Noah are the same one. 

[SilentOne]

On 6/13/2023 at 3:32 PM, askandanswer said:

I think that one potential obstacle the vellum hyphothesis would have to deal with is the fossil record. If previous versions of humanity were of a similar quality to the existing version then I suspect we would have found more evidence of them, either in the form of skeletons or artefacts. Even an event as cataclysmic as the Chicxulub impact left behind plenty of evidence of the life forms that preceded it.

A second potential obstacle, and I admit, this sounds a bit strange, is the possible lack of space when the Earth is in its celestial state. If the Earth is our eternal home after this life for all who have ever lived on it, and if the current version of humanity is just one of many versions of all who have lived on Earth, it could become quite crowded if we are all living in the same space at the same time.

I understood @Vort to be suggesting that the previous versions were the intelligent humans who we do have fossil evidence of from before the last ice age.

On 6/13/2023 at 1:00 PM, Vort said:

I know of no evidence of pre-human human-like intelligence. But humans appear to have been around for quite a while. We do not know exactly when Adam and Eve lived, but the normal Bible-based chronology (both Christian and Jewish) puts them more or less at around 4000 BC. I think that number can be considered variable, but I doubt there would be many Bible believers who would suggest that Adam and Eve lived much more than, say, 10,000 years ago. Interestingly, this coincides with the approximate end of the most recent ice age. Yet it appears than anatomically modern humans have been around for maybe as long as 200,000 years.

 

[askandanswer]

4 hours ago, SilentOne said:

I understood @Vort to be suggesting that the previous versions were the intelligent humans who we do have fossil evidence of from before the last ice age.

 

A comparison of skeletal remains suggests that previous versions would have been made in an image that at best has some similarities with the image of God.

[Traveler]

On 6/14/2023 at 3:07 PM, zil2 said:

   ......

• Day 1: God creates light and divides it from the darkness - there's the light for your plants.

  ....

Most that read Genesis, think that the first creation of G-d is light.  Perhaps I can offer another or an additional idea.  First, I would purport that G-d himself is both light and truth as well as the source of light and truth.  In a discussion with a Rabbi expert in Hebrew literature – he suggest an alternate reading to “In the beginning” being the first phrase of Genesis.  The phrase “In the beginning” – I was told would be better if read, “When G-d first established his covenant with man.”

I have pondered this concept and concluded that I like it better – partly because I do not believe there is a beginning of G-d and his works.   

I have pondered the concept that G-d’s first creation was light – but that is not exactly what we are told in scripture.   The indication is that darkness already existed and was “upon the face of the deep”.  At this point G-d pronounces that there should be light – in contrast to the darkness.  We are told that G-d saw that the light was “good” and then G-d divided the light from the darkness.

Keep in mind that this is the expression of the work, purpose and meaning of G-d.  If we consider the entire plan of salvation, we will discover that beginning with Genesis through the final judgment (separating G-d’s creation into Kingdoms of glory) that the plan of salvation can be expressed in Chiasmus centered on the concept of dividing light from darkness. 

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

13 minutes ago, Traveler said:

Most that read Genesis, ...

I'm good with all of that (though it's a left turn from your literal "plants need the sun to grow" dilemma, which was the only point I was trying to address), but in addition (and again from Abraham 4):

Quote

3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.

4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.

5 And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to pass that from the evening until morning they called night; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning, of that which they called day and night.

We still have day and night, morning and evening.  I suppose one could consider these symbolic of righteousness and wickedness (or whatever), but I still believe that God created light (in a particular region of space - call it another light source, additional light, a temporary sun, whatever - e.g. "let there be light here"¹) and a star system, and a planet in that system (eventually, anyway), and caused life to develop on that planet (somehow), that eventually led to our first parents, who were called Adam and Eve - that they were literal people from whom we descended.

I'm good with any symbolism one wants to draw from these events (so long as it's consistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ), but I believe in a literal creation, first spiritually and then physically.  And I think the creation story gives a very high-level outline of what that entailed - in addition to whatever else one wants (or God intended us) to learn from said story.  (And I still think Abraham's rendition is better than Moses'. )

¹Frankly, I'm OK if it was something along the lines of, "Someone get those floodlights over here so we can see what we're doing until we get the sun made." - I just think there was visible, bright light, and apparently the lights came on and off, cuz there was morning and evening, day and night.  And no, I'm not terribly concerned with understanding scientific details at the moment. We will understand (or remember) one day, and that's soon enough for me.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, zil2 said:

I'm good with all of that (though it's a left turn from your literal "plants need the sun to grow" dilemma, which was the only point I was trying to address), but in addition (and again from Abraham 4):

We still have day and night, morning and evening.  I suppose one could consider these symbolic of righteousness and wickedness (or whatever), but I still believe that God created light (in a particular region of space - call it another light source, additional light, a temporary sun, whatever - e.g. "let there be light here"¹) and a star system, and a planet in that system (eventually, anyway), and caused life to develop on that planet (somehow), that eventually led to our first parents, who were called Adam and Eve - that they were literal people from whom we descended.

I'm good with any symbolism one wants to draw from these events (so long as it's consistent with the gospel of Jesus Christ), but I believe in a literal creation, first spiritually and then physically.  And I think the creation story gives a very high-level outline of what that entailed - in addition to whatever else one wants (or God intended us) to learn from said story.  (And I still think Abraham's rendition is better than Moses'. )

¹Frankly, I'm OK if it was something along the lines of, "Someone get those floodlights over here so we can see what we're doing until we get the sun made." - I just think there was visible, bright light, and apparently the lights came on and off, cuz there was morning and evening, day and night.  And no, I'm not terribly concerned with understanding scientific details at the moment. We will understand (or remember) one day, and that's soon enough for me.

I very much appreciate communicating with you.  For much of my life as an engineer and scientist I have come to believe in empirical evidence as well as spiritual revelation.  I just cannot understand a G-d of light and truth that would create anything is such a manner to deceive those making honest inquires by analyzing empirical evidence.

I have communicated with some that believe G-d would leave false evidence for the purpose of testing those that would believe Him above all else.   I have great difficulty dealing with such thinking and having faith in anyone (let alone G-d) that wants to test me in such a manner.

I am not sure I understand Genesis or Exodus scripture.  Symbolism makes sense but how literal is a question that I cannot answer with mush assurance.  I have pondered why there is a creation story attached to the great plan of salvation.  I have resolved that there is much I do not understand – spiritually or physically.  Our earth does not make sense in this universe that is so inhospitable to life as we know it.

We are told in scripture that Christ has created worlds without number.  To me the universe is a product of intelligence but there is no place in this universe for life as we know it – that is not without modification contrary to the natural order of this universe.  This universe may be full of life but not life as we think we know it.  Mortality just is not sustainable life in this universe.

I am inclined to think the creation is a unique story associated with our earth and solar system and our mortal probation.  An earth created just to accomplish the mortal part of G-d’s plan of salvation.  Thus the creation of a rotating planet with all forms of life here is an investment of extraordinary effort of short duration and great value – and that is the story behind the story of scripture.

@Vort  has suggested something of interest with this thread – that this planet has been used before for other things – or perhaps those other things are a school yard of things we participated in as we grew and learned spiritually in our pre-existence.  I cannot think of any other religion other than the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints that can even accommodate such ideas.

 

The Traveler

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I just cannot understand a G-d of light and truth that would create anything is such a manner to deceive

I agree, God does not deceive (though keep in mind that Christ intentionally taught in parables so that only those who were willing to humble themselves and learn from the Spirit could understand, and some might think of that as a form of deceit).

I don't believe the creation story was meant to be scientifically or functionally instructional.  If I were describing my work back when I was a programmer, I might say something like:

• gather requirements
• design data structure
• design gui
• write code
• test

It's super-simple.  No one could complete the project with that description.  It's very simplified with lots of detail left out, but it's basically what I did.

I think the creation story is given to us so that we can learn:

• God really did create an earth, just for us
• It was involved work
• It forms the basis for why we observe the Sabbath every 7th day
• God is that powerful and loves us that much
• And various other lessons, some of which you yourself have stated on multiple occasions here
• Whatever I don't know (yet?)

FWIW.  As for life elsewhere in the universe, I don't feel like I know nearly enough to say that God didn't repeat this level of exceptional work elsewhere or elsewhen, so I'll leave it in His hands to worry about - I have more than enough to worry about now.  (Like trying to clear up your confusion about Klaw and curtains... )