But Mormons Are Christian Too!

[prisonchaplain]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

My next truck will be a Tundra.

Mine will be ... a sedan. 😉

Edited October 10, 2023 by prisonchaplain

[Just_A_Guy]

I hope not to be terribly offensive with this, but . . .

When I talk to lay Christians about the LDS notion of the Godhead, I find that most of them don’t really find it that objectionable and aren’t particularly attached to their understanding of the concept of the Trinity.  (Internet-warrior Christians, of course, are a different matter entirely.)

I think “different Jesus” is, to a significant degree, a scare phrase/crutch used by a subset of mainline Christian clerics and apologists who feel like they can’t defend the notion of the Trinity on its own merits and would prefer their parishioners just quit asking questions.

As far as the OP goes:  I think the Church over time has gone back and forth about whether, from a theological standpoint, it’s a big deal that outsiders consider/call us “Christians”.  At times we’ve felt it’s important in order to reflect glory to our master, Jesus Christ; at others, we’ve felt the “brand” was irretrievably tainted and not worth pursuing (I believe President Young was of the latter opinion.)  But from a socio-political standpoint, I think, it has consistently been a very big deal.  Because frankly, as Americans, we have a significant national heritage of doing some pretty horrific things to “non-Christians”; and we tend to (rightly or wrongly) view use of that epithet towards us as being a sort of “battlespace prep” by a “Christian” majority that (we fear) is proud of what they did to us in the 19th century and wouldn’t pass up an opportunity to do it all over again.  

[Carborendum]

13 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

When I talk to lay Christians about the LDS notion of the Godhead, I find that most of them don’t really find it that objectionable and aren’t particularly attached to their understanding of the concept of the Trinity.  (Internet-warrior Christians, of course, are a different matter entirely.)

My parents were converts.  And only a few households from my father's side followed them in baptism.

My mom's side were Southern Baptists.  I had no idea what that really meant.  And from the sound of it, neither did they.  But they knew the Bible stories well enough. And a lot of them were church-going people.

I don't remember any of them really understanding what the Trinity was, much less making a stink about believing it or not.

On the other hand, the people who had been born-and-bred to hate Mormons absolutely raised the doctrine of the Trinity as the sole reason that we're a cult.  Then that opened the floodgates to spread all kinds of lies about us as well.

13 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I think “different Jesus” is, to a significant degree, a scare phrase/crutch used by a subset of mainline Christian clerics and apologists who feel like they can’t defend the notion of the Trinity on its own merits and would prefer their parishioners just quit asking questions.

Yeah, my high school debater used that on me as well.  And so did some of my friends who were more cordial.  I simply said,"Well, I guess that is possible.  But the guy that was born under a special star, was worshipped by wise men from the east, gave the sermon on the mount, was nailed to a cross, and rose three days later to saved all mankind?  That's the one we worship.  Who do you worship?

13 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

As far as the OP goes:  I think the Church over time has gone back and forth about whether, from a theological standpoint, it’s a big deal that outsiders consider/call us “Christians”.  At times we’ve felt it’s important in order to reflect glory to our master, Jesus Christ; at others, we’ve felt the “brand” was irretrievably tainted and not worth pursuing (I believe President Young was of the latter opinion.)  But from a socio-political standpoint, I think, it has consistently been a very big deal.  Because frankly, as Americans, we have a significant national heritage of doing some pretty horrific things to “non-Christians”; and we tend to (rightly or wrongly) view use of that epithet towards us as being a sort of “battlespace prep” by a “Christian” majority that (we fear) is proud of what they did to us in the 19th century and wouldn’t pass up an opportunity to do it all over again.  

They're still doing that.  Even when we're on the same side politically, they don't want us around them.  Why would they?  Many of them are so strongly convinced that their political positions are religiously motivated, they know that God will support them anyway.  And having Mormons to help them politically would be blasphemy. -- Yes, I've heard people say that.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Carborendum

[prisonchaplain]

40 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I hope not to be terribly offensive with this, but . . .

When I talk to lay Christians about the LDS notion of the Godhead, I find that most of them don’t really find it that objectionable and aren’t particularly attached to their understanding of the concept of the Trinity.  (Internet-warrior Christians, of course, are a different matter entirely.)

I think “different Jesus” is, to a significant degree, a scare phrase/crutch used by a subset of mainline Christian clerics and apologists who feel like they can’t defend the notion of the Trinity on its own merits and would prefer their parishioners just quit asking questions.

None of this surprises me. It's not so much that the Trinity teaching has lost favor, but more that Christian education has. When I was at seminary (Bible graduate school) our Christian Education program folded and our Christian Counseling program doubled. For the last many years (at least a couple decades) pastors' wives have transitioned from being Sunday School directors to being the church counselor/therapist. So, it's likely true that many lay Christians do not know/understand the Trinity (the doctrine of God). It's also likely that some pastors find it difficult to explain the teaching to those who have had far less Bible training than typical Christians in the past. 

On the bright side, I continue to look at Romney's candidacy as a sign of improved relations. No, he did not win and yes, many Christians refused to vote for him because of his faith. On the other hand, many Christians did vote for him. David French, and evangelical author/thinker, even wrote a short book on why we should do so. I felt very comfortable doing so. 

Despite all that, I would argue that the doctrine of God is important. The difference between our views is subtle but significant.  

[Ironhold]

19 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

On the bright side, I continue to look at Romney's candidacy as a sign of improved relations. No, he did not win and yes, many Christians refused to vote for him because of his faith. On the other hand, many Christians did vote for him. David French, and evangelical author/thinker, even wrote a short book on why we should do so. I felt very comfortable doing so. 

There was also a massively extensive anti-Mormon campaign based on "othering" Romney and members of the faith, with everyone from Obama's re-election team to television network ABC working together to bury Romney and the church. 

In their eyes, they did nothing wrong. 

[Ironhold]

On 10/10/2023 at 4:53 PM, prisonchaplain said:

Mine will be ... a sedan. 😉

Due to the scoliosis and busted vertebrae I have, I'm going to need a Tacoma or similar vehicle. The sedan I have is just too low to the ground, making it hard some days for me to get in and out. 

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, Ironhold said:

There was also a massively extensive anti-Mormon campaign based on "othering" Romney and members of the faith, with everyone from Obama's re-election team to television network ABC working together to bury Romney and the church. 

Ironically, what ABC and the Obama reelection team did to Romney and the church is similar to what is being done to Christianity in general. Many LGBT leaders realize that most major faiths oppose their social and political efforts. Media and Democrats believe they are on the winning side, and so portray all of us as anti-human rights, anti-science, and just mean. So, we're all lumped together. 

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, Ironhold said:

Due to the scoliosis and busted vertebrae I have, I'm going to need a Tacoma or similar vehicle. The sedan I have is just too low to the ground, making it hard some days for me to get in and out. 

I'm just short enough, at 6' 4", that I can usually ride a sedan. SUV's and trucks tend to have higher roofs, which I appreciate. In seriousness, my Rav4 has my headroom than my Impala did. 

[LDSGator]

4 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'm just short enough, at 6' 4"

Dude, I’m almost a foot smaller than you!!!! 

[prisonchaplain]

1 minute ago, LDSGator said:

Dude, I’m almost a foot smaller than you!!!! 

But Mighty in Valor, right? 😉

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, prisonchaplain said:

But Mighty in Valor, right? 😉

In high school they made us all like up by height for graduation. I was the shortest guy, and almost every other girl (!) was taller then me too! 

[Ironhold]

23 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

I'm just short enough, at 6' 4", that I can usually ride a sedan. SUV's and trucks tend to have higher roofs, which I appreciate. In seriousness, my Rav4 has my headroom than my Impala did. 

That's about how tall I likely would have been if not for the scoliosis. As it is, I appear to be losing height due to the spinal damage.

[prisonchaplain]

@Ironhold sounds like you should drive whatever is comfortable. Kia Sorento and Hyundai Tuscon are two SUV models that might work well, comfort wise. We bought a late model Tuscon from Hertz and are very happy with it. Price seemed reasonable too (below KBB). 

[NeuroTypical]

15 hours ago, Ironhold said:

On 10/10/2023 at 9:13 PM, prisonchaplain said:

On the bright side, I continue to look at Romney's candidacy as a sign of improved relations. No, he did not win and yes, many Christians refused to vote for him because of his faith. On the other hand, many Christians did vote for him. David French, and evangelical author/thinker, even wrote a short book on why we should do so. I felt very comfortable doing so. 

There was also a massively extensive anti-Mormon campaign based on "othering" Romney and members of the faith, with everyone from Obama's re-election team to television network ABC working together to bury Romney and the church. 

Indeed.  And before Romney's campaign, SLC had the 2002 winter Olympics.  The entire world paid attention to Mormons for the first time outside of a picture frame hung by our critics.  Many were amazed that we didn't kidnap any of the female Olympians and baptize them into spiritual wifery.  Folks finally paid the 2 seconds of attention required, to conclude that we probably don't have horns, and it was probably a bit silly that they spent 30 years believing otherwise.  

It's been 20 years since the antimormon industry was in full swing.  A traveling speaker could make a decent living going from baptist congregation to mega-church, giving a firery talk about the monstrous dangers of the mormon cult.   Every time we went into a bookstore, I'd go to their religion section to see how big their antimormon section was.  I remember the first time I saw a pro-lds book in a bookstore - in the 2010's.  5-20 new antimormon books got published every year back then. 

We owe a lot to the old FARMS organization who, through their book reviews, gave thoughtful, intellectually consistent, well researched answers to all the criticisms. 

Although I miss all the old fights, and having this guy as my avatar: 

``

[prisonchaplain]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

 Folks finally paid the 2 seconds of attention required, to conclude that we probably don't have horns, and it was probably a bit silly that they spent 30 years believing otherwise.  

I really feel like I missed out. Yes, I've read a few of the critical books (mostly from the 1960s-90s) and seen the notorious anti-LDS short film. The debates about history, polygamy, and Joseph Smith himself (along with his family)) are somewhat familiar to me. However, I never got initiated into this thing about the horns. Ah well...maybe I was too busy arguing the Trinity with Oneness Pentecostals! 😁

[Carborendum]

On 10/10/2023 at 10:13 PM, prisonchaplain said:

On the bright side, I continue to look at Romney's candidacy as a sign of improved relations. No, he did not win and yes, many Christians refused to vote for him because of his faith. On the other hand, many Christians did vote for him. David French, and evangelical author/thinker, even wrote a short book on why we should do so. I felt very comfortable doing so. 

After the election, I was on a survivalist/prepper forum where we discussed this.  That led me to lookup some numbers.

We all knew that the red states would vote red and blue states would vote blue.  So, which swing states mattered?  I looked at two scenarios.

1. If we took all the smallest swing states and saw the split, I found that they would not have changed the outcome.

2. If we look at the three biggest swing states, they would have made a difference.

In each of those big states the number of voters required to neutralize the split was pretty darn close to two other numbers.

• The number of evangelical adults in those states
• The decrease in number of people who came out to vote compared to 2 years prior.

In case no one is following all this, the conclusion is this:  While we don't know about every individual, the data seem to be "parallel" to the idea that evangelicals stayed home and refused to vote for a Mormon, thus giving the election to Obama.

I say "parallel" because the numbers alone can't "support" this conclusion per se.  But the numbers would be the same as if that conclusion were true.  That seems awfully coincidental to me.

Most of the members of that forum were either supportive of or neutral to Mormons.  But there were these two individuals...

One of them (the primary antagonist) refuted my analysis by saying that he plugged his nose and voted for Romney.  Oh well.  That sure put my theory to rest.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

57 minutes ago, prisonchaplain said:

However, I never got initiated into this thing about the horns

I like to tell people they're retractable.

[Ironhold]

1 hour ago, prisonchaplain said:

I really feel like I missed out. Yes, I've read a few of the critical books (mostly from the 1960s-90s) and seen the notorious anti-LDS short film. The debates about history, polygamy, and Joseph Smith himself (along with his family)) are somewhat familiar to me. However, I never got initiated into this thing about the horns. Ah well...maybe I was too busy arguing the Trinity with Oneness Pentecostals! 😁

During the Reconstruction era, missionaries operating in the American South were often targeted by the KKK and other hate groups. 

The story goes that one night J. Golden Kimball, who would later be a senior leader in the church, was meeting with a group of fellow missionaries out in the woods because it wasn't safe for them to assemble together in any of the local towns. Somehow, the KKK found out, parked themselves on the opposite bank of a river, and made a big spectacle of setting up a boiling pot of pitch. 

In response, Kimball bluffed the KKK members, claiming that we all had horns that came out in the moonlight. Anyone who tried it would be gored to death. 

Not only did the KKK members believe him, nearly 200 years later there are people who *still* believe him as well. 

[Ironhold]

3 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Indeed.  And before Romney's campaign, SLC had the 2002 winter Olympics.  The entire world paid attention to Mormons for the first time outside of a picture frame hung by our critics.  Many were amazed that we didn't kidnap any of the female Olympians and baptize them into spiritual wifery.  Folks finally paid the 2 seconds of attention required, to conclude that we probably don't have horns, and it was probably a bit silly that they spent 30 years believing otherwise.  

It's been 20 years since the antimormon industry was in full swing.  A traveling speaker could make a decent living going from baptist congregation to mega-church, giving a firery talk about the monstrous dangers of the mormon cult.   Every time we went into a bookstore, I'd go to their religion section to see how big their antimormon section was.  I remember the first time I saw a pro-lds book in a bookstore - in the 2010's.  5-20 new antimormon books got published every year back then. 

We owe a lot to the old FARMS organization who, through their book reviews, gave thoughtful, intellectually consistent, well researched answers to all the criticisms. 

Although I miss all the old fights, and having this guy as my avatar: 

``

The industry was still going pretty strong in the late 2000s and early 2010s, such that Martha Beck's book was pushed by Oprah until involved parties starting pushing back on her claims to the point that an op/ed in "Writer's Digest" referenced it when discussing then-recent literary hoaxes. 

If anything, the 2000s was a transitory period where members of the church were turning the tables. As more and more members took to the internet and found resources like FARMS and SHIELDS to supplement their own studies, they found themselves confronting more and more critics of the church in public forums where dozens or even hundreds of people were watching. Ministers and ministries alike, religious and secular, were made to look foolish as their outdated arguments and pure hatred were exposed. 

There is still hatred against the church, and various mainstream outlets are involved in perpetuating it. But the situation is unsustainable, not in this day and age of options for content.  

[Traveler]

I have mixed feelings about how the world looks upon the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  Historically there has been both support and condemnation.  Perhaps the worst was the extermination order by Governor Boggs.  Perhaps the best example of institutional support came from the Catholic Church (the only religious organization to offer aid) that gave the LDS all the money that they could in purchasing property in Nauvoo providing much needed cash for supplies for those LDS forced from their homes in the dead of winter (one in five of those LDS would die on the way to Winter Quarters or at Winter Quarters – mostly women and children).

Growing up in Utah, I had no idea that anyone disliked us.  All things not LDS were the vast minority.  I discovered in the military the bitter dislike many had learned from their churches towards us.  However, there is one thing about being in the military during combative threats of being killed – the fear of combat purty much trumps all other prejudices.  It was not uncommon for my initial most bitter enemies to become my most trusted friends and allies.   One example, I was once pulled from my bed at night and threatened for my life by knife welding threats to deny my religious faith.  At the moment I thought I would be harmed, a fellow I hardly knew came to my aid (someone also much disliked and someone I had not attempted to get to know better).  Some months later with orders taking us into combat some of those that had threatened me, came again at night and asked if I would pray with them.

I believe that there are two kinds of prejudice.   One is the prejudice of ignorance – we human tend to be skeptical of things that are different from what we know or understand.  The second is hatred that has been taught to us.   Both can be overcome with experiences and likewise both can be exploited by Satan for a vast variety of evil purposes.  It has always amazed me how quickly we will condemn one person and lovingly forgive another for the exact same thing, based only on our individual prejudices – especially in politics and religion (or favorite sports team).  I marvel at how quickly Jesus condemned his fellow Jews and forgave his rival Samaritans and Romans.

Let us all not enlarge any prejudice against us or anyone else but rather in love and compassion be forgiving – never seeking revenge.  Let us also be appreciative to any and all that show love and compassion towards us (or anyone else - especially those in need) and return such kindness with kindness – it is the only way to have peace within ourselves.

 

The Traveler

Edited October 12, 2023 by Traveler

[LDSGator]

21 minutes ago, Traveler said:

believe that there are two kinds of prejudice.   One is the prejudice of ignorance – we human tend to be skeptical of things that are different from what we know or understand.  The second is hatred that has been taught to us.   Both can be overcome with experiences and likewise both can be exploited by Satan for a vast variety of evil purposes.

I never really thought about it but you are absolutely right about this. Perfectly said. 

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, prisonchaplain said:

I never got initiated into this thing about the horns. Ah well...maybe I was too busy arguing the Trinity with Oneness Pentecostals! 😁

My wife found someone who actually believed the horn thing.  She was on an airline flight to Florida, and struck up a conversation with some businessman guy next to her.  They talked religion a bit, she said she was from Utah, and as he realized she was LDS, he politely asked if she had ever needed work done on her skull.  She was totally confused, which confused him in return.  He didn't mean to offend, but he had grown up hearing that mormons, especially those who came from Utah, had horns.  And since she didn't seem to have any, he wondered if surgery had been necessary.  He had always just assumed it was some sort of congenital bone defect or something. 

She was polite back, but let him know the history of the notion.  It was just one of many lowbrow ways for our critics and opponents to demonize us, probably 120 years old at that point. 

[Carborendum]

2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

My wife found someone who actually believed the horn thing.  She was on an airline flight to Florida, and struck up a conversation with some businessman guy next to her.  They talked religion a bit, she said she was from Utah, and as he realized she was LDS, he politely asked if she had ever needed work done on her skull.  She was totally confused, which confused him in return.  He didn't mean to offend, but he had grown up hearing that mormons, especially those who came from Utah, had horns.  And since she didn't seem to have any, he wondered if surgery had been necessary.  He had always just assumed it was some sort of congenital bone defect or something. 

She was polite back, but let him know the history of the notion.  It was just one of many lowbrow ways for our critics and opponents to demonize us, probably 120 years old at that point. 

A: Well, they're kinda short, but if you feel through the hair, you can find them.

B: I don't feel anything.

A: Not even a little stupid?

[zil2]

45 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

There is still hatred against the church, and various mainstream outlets are involved in perpetuating it. But the situation is unsustainable, not in this day and age of options for content.  

Perhaps the old falsehoods, misunderstandings, ignorance, and doctrinal-differences hatred isn't sustainable any more, but have no fear, the hatred of the wicked will soon outpace the hatred of folks who thought us a cult and we will be even more hated than before.  We will have ever-increasing opportunities to rejoice, and be exceeding glad.

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Ironhold said:

Martha Beck's book

Martha Beck was such a liar that her own siblings disclaimed her. My understanding is that they unitedly discredited her allegations of sexual abuse (and there's not much the Nibley siblings are united on). The woman is shameless. Have no fear, she will one day be held to account for her words. Until then, we bear such people, defending ourselves as necessary and working to find the grace and charity to forgive and pray that they return to the fold.