Hymn Singing

[Jamie123]

I was just watching a YouTube video of a Latter-day Saint sacrament meeting, and I noticed something weird which I did think weird back in the day.

No one stands up to sing!

How do you expand your lungs properly sitting down? I know I couldn't belt out He Who Would Valiant Be! loud enough to annoy everyone in the row in front, if I was sitting down!

And you can't tell me this is a specifically LDS thing: the Mor.. er Tabernacle Choir don't sit down to sing! They stand up same as we do!

At least they look to me like they're standing up! So what gives?

You've gotta love the Tabernacle Choir. And Onward Christian Soldiers. Never mind all this wishy-washy "Onward Christian Pilgrims" malarcky.

It's "soldiers" - OK? Sol-diers! Soldiers going out into the World to fight against the Devil!

The Church of England is plagued with so much of this nonsense these days. If things carry on like this, I'll be tempted to join GAFCON*.

*GAFCON - "Global Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans" (more-or-less). Anglicans who don't recognize the Archbishop of Canterbury. I suppose somewhat like the Latter-day Saint splinter groups except none of them (as far as I know) have multiple wives**.

**I've just spent most of the afternoon having a long, bitter and exhausting texting-argument with the woman who is technically my wife. Imagine wanting to have more than one!

Edited October 25, 2023 by Jamie123

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

GAFCON - "Global Fellowship of Confessing Anglicans" (more-or-less). Anglicans who don't recognize the Archbishop of Canterbury.

FWIW, I wouldn't recognize the Archbishop of Canterbury. Maybe if he had a name tag.

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

I've just spent most of the afternoon having a long, bitter and exhausting texting-argument with the woman

I'm very sorry to hear that. I sincerely wish you the best of luck, or perhaps better stated, God's blessings in that issue.

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

No one stands up to sing!

We do when we sing the national anthem.    And sometimes in stake conference or other long meetings where your feet lose feeling...  Also, choirs stand to sing, just not the congregation.

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

belt out

It's rare for anyone to belt out anything (except some Primary children).

1 hour ago, Jamie123 said:

I've just spent most of the afternoon having a long, bitter and exhausting texting-argument with the woman who is technically my wife. Imagine wanting to have more than one!

Sorry, Jamie.  Prayers and best wishes for you.  (And for the record, I've never wanted even one wife.)

[Jamie123]

56 minutes ago, zil2 said:

It's rare for anyone to belt out anything (except some Primary children).

Haha - some hymns need to be belted out with gusto. Especially ones like Onward Christian Soldiers!

Edited October 25, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

17 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Haha - some hymns need to be belted out with gusto. Especially ones like Onward Christian Soldiers!

Yeah, I wish we did that, but it seems contrary to our congregational nature - we don't even shout the "we'll sing and we'll shout" part of "The Spirit of God"....

Also, our organists and pianists almost always play the hymns slower than they're meant to be played.  I don't like it, but until I can do better, I'm not going to do more than express my dislike here on the interwebs.  (And continue to pray for them. )

Klaw says we have to go outside now...

[Jamie123]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

  I don't like it, but until I can do better, I'm not going to do more than express my dislike here on the interwebs.

Yup! Not every hill is worth dying on.

One of my dislikes is that in our church we have no consecration bell. Whenever the priest gets to...

"This is my body, which is given for you. Do this whenever you eat it in remembrance of me.”

I always whisper "bong bong bong" under my breath, while dead-legging myself three times.

And when we get to...

"This is my blood of the new covenant. Do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me."

I whisper "bong bong bong" again with further dead-legging. After years of not having a consecration bell it still doesn't seem right not having one. I even considered bringing my own, but I don't think certain people in the congregation would be very pleased.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Jamie123

[zil2]

2 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

consecration bell

Alien concept to life-long Latter-day Saints.

3 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

dead-legging

Kicking yourself in the back of the leg?

[Jamie123]

29 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Alien concept to life-long Latter-day Saints

It's an alien concept to all but Catholics and High-Church Protestants.

31 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Kicking yourself in the back of the leg?

Not quite - jabbing the bone in my upper leg with my knuckle to simulate the clapper of the bell. (I'm a strange person I know!)

[Jamie123]

43 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Alien concept to life-long Latter-day Saints.

Ok sorry I need to explain better than that. When the elements are blessed - and thus become the body and blood of Christ - a bell is traditionally rung in the steeple so people all around will know what has happened. Sometimes also one of the servers will also ring a bell - or a lot of jingly bells - at the altar at the same time. Sometimes it sounds a bit like someone shaking a tambourine. But the bell I miss most is the one ringing high up in the Tower. They had that in the church where I took my confirmation classes long ago. Our vicar was called Father Michael. He went over to the Catholics after they allowed women to become priests. He didn't like that one little bit!

Edited October 25, 2023 by Jamie123

[Vort]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

we don't even shout the "we'll sing and we'll shout" part of "The Spirit of God"....

I sing loud. Does that count?

[Vort]

3 hours ago, zil2 said:

Also, our organists and pianists almost always play the hymns slower than they're meant to be played.  I don't like it, but until I can do better, I'm not going to do more than express my dislike here on the interwebs.  (And continue to pray for them. )

Even more irritating to me than playing everything at funeral dirge tempo is that Organists. Can't. Count. I mean, how hard is "ONE-two-three-four-ONE-two-three-four"? Seems simple enough, right? Yet wherever I go, whatever ward I visit, almost every time the organist cuts off the sustained notes a half-beat too early. Every freaking time. Is it really so hard to hold the note out for the entire count? Did the note do something to offend you? Kick your dog, maybe? I mean, counting the beat is pretty much the most basic possible part of music, more even than hitting the correct tone. How can this be so universally badly done? Seriously, I don't get it. 

[Vort]

17 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

50 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Alien concept to life-long Latter-day Saints

It's an alien concept to all but Catholics and High-Church Protestants.

I did not realize the Church of England accepted the doctrine of transubstantiation.

[Vort]

5 hours ago, Jamie123 said:

How do you expand your lungs properly sitting down? I know I couldn't belt out He Who Would Valiant Be! loud enough to annoy everyone in the row in front, if I was sitting down!

To be honest, if you hear the gusto with which the Saints usually don't sing the hymns of Zion, lung expansion is not a top priority.

[Jamie123]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

Even more irritating to me than playing everything at funeral dirge tempo is that Organists. Can't. Count. I mean, how hard is "ONE-two-three-four-ONE-two-three-four"? Seems simple enough, right? Yet wherever I go, whatever ward I visit, almost every time the organist cuts off the sustained notes a half-beat too early. Every freaking time. Is it really so hard to hold the note out for the entire count? Did the note do something to offend you? Kick your dog, maybe? I mean, counting the beat is pretty much the most basic possible part of music, more even than hitting the correct tone. How can this be so universally badly done? Seriously, I don't get it. 

We don't even have an organist anymore. Our last one (who was also head of Physics at Imperial College) retired and moved away. Luckily we have the sweetest, loveliest Chinese girl who plays the piano, but she cannot play an organ, and she's not even there every week. So now much of our music comes off CDs.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Jamie123

[Jamie123]

25 minutes ago, Vort said:

I did not realize the Church of England accepted the doctrine of transubstantiation.

It depends very much who you talk to. Different traditions within Anglicanism are almost like different churches. The "highest" Anglicans, though technically Protestants, are almost indistinguishable from Roman Catholics. We sometimes call them Anglo-Catholics. However I don't think nowadays many people (even Catholics) take transubstantiation quite literally.

Edited October 25, 2023 by Jamie123

[Jamie123]

Speaking for myself I've always been very conscious of 1 Corinthians 11:29, and when I'm in a certain mindset I don't dare touch the sacraments. (My curate tells me this is not the right attitude to take.)

[Vort]

50 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Speaking for myself I've always been very conscious of 1 Corinthians 11:29, and when I'm in a certain mindset I don't dare touch the sacraments. (My curate tells me this is not the right attitude to take.)

There was a time when this was a very important concern for me, so important that I ended up consulting with my bishop. Apparently, I'm not the only one who has had this concern. The bishop's counsel to me was along the lines of "earnest effort". If I'm unrepentant and/or currently engaged in covenant-breaking activity, then no, I should not partake. But if I'm sincerely striving and giving honest, earnest effort, I should not let my own weaknesses and imperfections prevent me from accepting the gift Christ offers. Since that event, I believe that I have not skipped partaking of the sacrament when the opportunity has arisen. (No promises about that, though.)

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Yet wherever I go, whatever ward I visit, almost every time the organist cuts off the sustained notes a half-beat too early.

You thought tithing was just for money?  It's also for music.  The last half-beat is consecrated to the Lord.  

(Hey, best I got.  Happens in my ward too.  Even though the organist's daughter is a musical prodigy who practices hours a day and travels the nation invited to sing in different symphony orchestras.

[Jamie123]

9 hours ago, Vort said:

There was a time when this was a very important concern for me, so important that I ended up consulting with my bishop. Apparently, I'm not the only one who has had this concern. The bishop's counsel to me was along the lines of "earnest effort". If I'm unrepentant and/or currently engaged in covenant-breaking activity, then no, I should not partake. But if I'm sincerely striving and giving honest, earnest effort, I should not let my own weaknesses and imperfections prevent me from accepting the gift Christ offers. Since that event, I believe that I have not skipped partaking of the sacrament when the opportunity has arisen. (No promises about that, though.)

That wasn't quite the advice I got, but similar. The gist of what the curate told me was that no, I couldn't trust myself not to sin anymore, but if at the moment I took communion I had a genuine desire and intention not to sin, then it was OK for me to take it*. Communion - taking in the body and blood of Christ (whether you believe this literally or symbolically) - strengthens our resistance to sin and makes us more like Christ. Coming the altar rail to receive (or sitting waiting for it to come to you, if it's that sort of church) you're not saying...

"OK God! I haven't committed any sins! I'm worthy! Now giz'!"**

...but (to quote the liturgy itself)...

"Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."

It's also worth quoting this hymn by Charlotte Elliot:

Quote

Just as I am, without one plea,
but that thy blood was shed for me,
and that thou bidd'st me come to thee,
O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

*Yes, I know: "Good intentions". Someone will probably have a pointed retort about "road to hell...blah blah blah", but firstly that phrase is not even from the Bible, and secondly I wouldn't read it as "mind you don't have any good intentions". It's more "good intentions aren't enough unless you act on them". And I think that having taken holy communion, you're more likely to act on your intentions than if you hadn't.

**Midland for "give us"/"give me". My Leicestonian showing through there!

Edited October 26, 2023 by Jamie123

[Just_A_Guy]

On 10/25/2023 at 7:40 PM, NeuroTypical said:

You thought tithing was just for money?  It's also for music.  The last half-beat is consecrated to the Lord.  

(Hey, best I got.  Happens in my ward too.  Even though the organist's daughter is a musical prodigy who practices hours a day and travels the nation invited to sing in different symphony orchestras.

Well, most newer LDS meetinghouses (at least here in the US) have (tithing-funded!) organs that are pre-programmed with most of the hymns from our hymnal.  I don’t think I’ve ever been in a ward where that feature was used (except for prelude music before/after the meeting)—they’ve always had a live organist or, failing that, a pianist— but the capability for auto-play is definitely there.  

Edited October 27, 2023 by Just_A_Guy

[Carborendum]

45 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

Well, most newer LDS meetinghouses (at least here in the US) have (tithing-funded!) organs that are pre-programmed with most of the hymns from our hymnal.  I don’t think I’ve ever been in a ward where that feature was used (except for prelude music before/after the meeting)—they’ve always had a live organist or, failing that, a pianist— but the capability for auto-play is definitely there.  

We were forced to use that feature in the early period of our newly formed ward.  We had an elderly brother who was technically the designated organist.  And we had a sister who played.  And we had my son.

But one Sunday, our elderly brother was too ill to attend, the sister was on vacation, and my son had to prepare the sacrament because there weren't enough priests in the ward.

So, they used the self-playing setting.

What we didn't know was that we had a couple of talented piano players who could have played the piano instead. 

Oh well.  The self-playing organ did well.

[mordorbund]

20 hours ago, Just_A_Guy said:

the capability for auto-play is definitely there.

Eulalie Mackecknie Shinn has entered the chat

[Vort]

2 hours ago, mordorbund said:

Eulalie Mackecknie Shinn has entered the chat

I look forward to the Grecian Urn portrayals.

[Connie]

On 10/25/2023 at 5:02 PM, Vort said:

Even more irritating to me than playing everything at funeral dirge tempo is that Organists. Can't. Count. I mean, how hard is "ONE-two-three-four-ONE-two-three-four"? Seems simple enough, right? Yet wherever I go, whatever ward I visit, almost every time the organist cuts off the sustained notes a half-beat too early. Every freaking time. Is it really so hard to hold the note out for the entire count? Did the note do something to offend you? Kick your dog, maybe? I mean, counting the beat is pretty much the most basic possible part of music, more even than hitting the correct tone. How can this be so universally badly done? Seriously, I don't get it. 

Could it be that is when the chorister cuts them off? Or maybe it's because the congregation cuts off early and they feel silly holding it out so much longer when no one is singing anymore.

I've been playing the organ (badly) for over 20 years, so maybe it's easier for me to have charity towards those pianists who are the vast majority of organists these days and who are actually willing to try (there are many who aren't willing). The organ is very different than the piano. There are a lot more fingering strategies one has to learn because of the lack of a sustain pedal. It makes sense to me when an organist (who is really a pianist) has to play a song slower than it calls for, though unfortunately I do still find it annoying. I try to play the hymns at speed, but there are definitely those that I still struggle with. Plus there are other considerations such as following a chorister, which an organist is supposed to do. A lot of choristers aren't musically trained and are just doing the best they can. They can be difficult to follow.

Might I suggest walking up to your ward organist and/or chorister some Sunday and thanking them for their willingness to serve. It's a mighty rare occurrence and may just make their day.

[zil2]

13 minutes ago, Connie said:

feel silly holding it out so much longer when no one is singing anymore.

Chorister: The person to whom no one pays any attention but without whom no one will sing.