Identity...

[zil2]

This morning on r/fountainpens (reddit), I saw that some poor soul had asked, "What kind of person uses a fountain pen?"  I made assumptions and kept scrolling without stopping to read, but the question (and the fact that the population there is so young and woke) made me realize that folks look for "belonging" and external definitions of "what kind of person" they are wherever they can find it because it's not taught anymore.

No one taught these poor people who they are.  And I don't just mean the gender identity crisis people, I mean the vast majority of the most recent generation or two.  At some point in the past, folks were taught that they were [nationality] or [religion] or [family] (and all the stuff packed inside the words).  Now, they're taught to reject nationality and religion, and told that family has such a broad definition as to be meaningless.  No wonder people are chasing after whatever fad or cause they feel like they can "belong" to.  Sigh.  The world needs the gospel of Jesus Christ.

I was reminded of the May 2022 Worldwide Devotional for Young Adults with President and Sister Nelson.  Critical quote:

Quote

Now, let us turn the question to you. Who are you?

First and foremost, you are a child of God.

Second, as a member of the Church, you are a child of the covenant. And third, you are a disciple of Jesus Christ.

Tonight, I plead with you not to replace these three paramount and unchanging identifiers with any others, because doing so could stymie your progress or pigeonhole you in a stereotype that could potentially thwart your eternal progression.

I don't know that I had any discussion in mind, it just seemed like people need to be taught who they are, and we need to make sure we don't forget who we are.  Those of us who were taught (and have learned) who we are should be eternally grateful for that knowledge!

[LDSGator]

It’s a fascinating topic. People my age tend to define themselves by multiple things, so in case they lose one of them they don’t have an existential crisis.  I also think there are just more communities to join than ever before, so we have more options. 

[Carborendum]

A long time ago, my BIL was teaching a lesson at church when my family was visiting them.  He pointed out that the society seemed to be dividing into "tribes" as hinted in 4th Nephi.  Then he asked, "What does that say about the role of the Church in these times?"

I get the impression that he was actually trying to say that dividing into tribes is detrimental to society.  But my response to his question was "The Church is our tribe."

You seem to go along with that idea with the promotion of Nation, Family, & Religion.  But there is something more to your response than mine.  When I only named one tribe, there was some exclusivity to it that went beyond what is healthy.  But the Nation/Family/Religion trifecta are tribes which can coexist and have proven to be the ideal basis of enduring, peaceful societies.

We combine our loyalty to our nation which allows for loyalty to a religion which allows for loyalty to our family.  And when our family values reflect the values of the nation and religion, then we're in a peaceful, harmonious society.

Today, the tribes that we see are not loyal to any societal set of values that have withstood the test of time.  All values, all loyalties are only newly formed.  In fact, they're not really formed at all.  They are simply nebulous concepts that tend to be more about excluding than uniting.

My 2 cents.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Carborendum

[zil2]

47 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

You seem to go along with that idea with the promotion of Nation, Family, & Religion.

Those are just the primary things I could think of that used to ground people - tie them into a community and give them a sense of who they are (perhaps I should add, "in relation to everyone else").

If I had to go with what identity people should have, I would go with President Nelson's list every time.  (Though not all will accept it, obviously.)

49 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But the Nation/Family/Religion trifecta are tribes which can coexist and have proven to be the ideal basis of enduring, peaceful societies.

Yes, and I imagine we'd be content if these identities were strongly held and taught, like they were when I was a child.  But they're not anymore.

[zil2]

55 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

It’s a fascinating topic. People my age tend to define themselves by multiple things, so in case they lose one of them they don’t have an existential crisis.  I also think there are just more communities to join than ever before, so we have more options. 

Good points.  I suppose the problem is when the identities are all fleeting and as @Carborendum mentioned, when they're divisive.  Without a collective "American" identity, our country will tear itself apart.  Look at the in-fighting of the Nephites - kept destroying them.

Mostly, though, I feel sad for those who don't know they are sons and daughters of God - that knowledge is an anchor in the storm.

[LDSGator]

33 minutes ago, zil2 said:

Good points.  I suppose the problem is when the identities are all fleeting and as @Carborendum mentioned, when they're divisive.  Without a collective "American" identity, our country will tear itself apart.  Look at the in-fighting of the Nephites - kept destroying them.

Mostly, though, I feel sad for those who don't know they are sons and daughters of God - that knowledge is an anchor in the storm.

Understand totally.  
 

As a convert I can’t say anything to someone who redefines how they view themselves religiously. I no longer define myself as Catholic and I was raised that way. I also view myself as a Floridian and I wasn’t raised here either.

I’m also adopted and a lot of adoptees are very fluid* with how they define themselves ethnically and religiously

*it seems to be one of two options for adoptees. We either define ourselves loosely like I do or they become hyper focused on who they were during their upbringing.  

Edited November 29, 2023 by LDSGator

[LDSGator]

I think one of the greatest blessings of being American is that you can reinvent and redefine yourself. Once again I find myself blessed beyond words that I’m from here.   

[Vort]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

I think one of the greatest blessings of being American is that you can reinvent and redefine yourself. Once again I find myself blessed beyond words that I’m from here.   

This is, IMO, the essence of the so-called American Dream; not that you can make a million dollars—what a perversion of the idea of the American Dream!—but that you can try to be who you want to be. You may fail (odds are good for failure), but you are free to try. I take great pride in being American to the extent that that "Dream" is still true.

[LDSGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

This is, IMO, the essence of the so-called American Dream; not that you can make a million dollars—what a perversion of the idea of the American Dream!—but that you can try to be who you want to be. You may fail (odds are good for failure), but you are free to try. I take great pride in being American to the extent that that "Dream" is still true.

I totally agree. 

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

...you can try to be who you want to be. You may fail (odds are good for failure), but you are free to try...

I've figured out that I had a pretty arrogant attitude regarding the American dream.  It was just too easy for me to say "I did it. Why can't you?"  I was born in third world poverty, only to be adopted by a working-class American family which eventually realized the American dream by the time I left for college.

Only recently have I come to realize how easy it has been for me. I console myself with the fact that I have, indeed, worked very hard to get where I am today.  But the fact is that I have talents that many do not.  And if it hadn't been for such talents/blessings, could I say that I'd still be as successful?  Probably not. 

So, I consider the words of Orson Scott Card (via Andrew Wiggin) "You cannot take pride in the talents and abilities you were born with.  One may as well take pride in being born with two arms.  But you can take pride in what you did with those talents and abilities."

I'm not so sure about that anymore.  I look back on my life's accomplishments and realize that compared to others, yes, I did a lot.  But OTOH, I really could have done so much more.  And I feel some level of shame for not having accomplished more.  

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

And I feel some level of shame for not having accomplished more.

You and me both, brother.

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, Vort said:

You and me both, brother.

You guys are both very accomplished in your careers, and more importantly you have wonderful families.

 

I truly don’t understand why either one of you would feel even remotely like you haven’t accomplished much. 

[mikbone]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

But OTOH, I really could have done so much more.  And I feel some level of shame for not having accomplished more. 

 

Excerpt from Spencer W. Kimball’s Oct ‘71 address Glimpses of Heaven 

When the eternal marriage was solemnized, and as the subdued congratulations were extended, a happy father, radiant in his joy, offered his hand and said, ‘Brother Kimball, my wife and I are common people and have never been successful, but we are immensely proud of our family.’ He continued, ‘This is the last of our eight children to come into this holy house for temple marriage. They, with their companions, are here to participate in the marriage of this, the youngest. This is our supremely happy day, with all of our eight children married properly. They are faithful to the Lord in church service, and the older ones are already rearing families in righteousness.’

“I looked at his calloused hands, his rough exterior, and thought to myself, ‘Here is a real son of God fulfilling his destiny.’

“‘Success?’ I said, as I grasped his hand. ‘That is the greatest success story I have heard. You might have accumulated millions in stocks and bonds, bank accounts, lands, industries, and still be quite a failure. You are fulfilling the purpose for which you were sent into this world by keeping your own lives righteous, bearing and rearing this great posterity, and training them in faith and works. Why, my dear folks, you are eminently successful. God bless you.’”

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1971/10/glimpses-of-heaven?lang=eng

 

[LDSGator]

19 minutes ago, mikbone said:

 

Excerpt from Spencer W. Kimball’s Oct ‘71 address Glimpses of Heaven 

When the eternal marriage was solemnized, and as the subdued congratulations were extended, a happy father, radiant in his joy, offered his hand and said, ‘Brother Kimball, my wife and I are common people and have never been successful, but we are immensely proud of our family.’ He continued, ‘This is the last of our eight children to come into this holy house for temple marriage. They, with their companions, are here to participate in the marriage of this, the youngest. This is our supremely happy day, with all of our eight children married properly. They are faithful to the Lord in church service, and the older ones are already rearing families in righteousness.’

“I looked at his calloused hands, his rough exterior, and thought to myself, ‘Here is a real son of God fulfilling his destiny.’

“‘Success?’ I said, as I grasped his hand. ‘That is the greatest success story I have heard. You might have accumulated millions in stocks and bonds, bank accounts, lands, industries, and still be quite a failure. You are fulfilling the purpose for which you were sent into this world by keeping your own lives righteous, bearing and rearing this great posterity, and training them in faith and works. Why, my dear folks, you are eminently successful. God bless you.’”

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/1971/10/glimpses-of-heaven?lang=eng

 

Amen. As someone married since 2002 to the same gal I’ll never feel like a failure. 

[laronius]

Joseph Smith: "If men do not comprehend the character of God, they do not comprehend themselves..."

I think the problem started with the Nicene Creed which attempted to make God incomprehensible. It has only gotten worse over time. 

[Traveler]

I think it is sad (especially among LDS) to define success in terms of worldly achievements – especially money.  The second problem is in defining success in terms of others (our children, family or friends).  Perhaps the strangest is defining one’s success in terms of heroes – like your favorite sports team, celebrity or following the initial op – tribe association.   The flipside of this is the inability to realize the shortcomings of ourselves or those in our tribe – or until your enemy does it.

I have often thought about determining my personal successes.  I hold two patents from work, but the reality is that the patents were not really my ideas but came as inspiration from a source outside of myself.  I cannot take credit for something that is not mine.

I mentioned what I am thinking about success to my wife, and she said that I am an amazing husband – but the truth is that she is an amazing wife that makes me a better husband.

I am thinking that determining personal success is a trap similar to humility.  The more you think you are a master of it the more you are failing at it.  And if you think you have failed – it is likely that you have.  The one thing I believe; is that if you love someone unselfishly – that truly is one thing in which you have indeed succeeded.

 

The Traveler