Anniversary of Pearl Harbor: 7 December 1941

[NeuroTypical]

More than 2400 Americans died in the attack, including civilians, and another 1000 were wounded.

https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/pearl-harbor

[JohnsonJones]

World War 2 is closer to some of us than our younger generation thinks.  I had a Father and cousins that fought in World War 2.  We should never forget.

I recently read that 1/5 of Americans do not believe the Holocaust is real.  That shocks and saddens me.

I've seen how the impacts and sacrifices of those who fought the Japanese in the Pacific have been forgotten over the decades be each succeeding generation. 

How, slowly the ideas and thoughts of the Imperialist from Asia, and the Facist from Europe have been gaining ground in our modern society.

I only hope that later generations do not have to relive the horrors that we unleashed upon ourselves again because they forgot our past.

[Jamie123]

Only partially relevant I know, but I recently watched a video that argued it was not the bomb that caused Japan to surrender, but the fact that the Soviet Union chose that same moment to declare war. The Japanese knew they would need to surrender to someone (bomb or no bomb) and the Americans seemed like the softer option. The US promptly rewrote history to make their glorious bomb the big deciding matter. One could say that the Soviet invasion was triggered by the Americans' use of the bomb, but it was going to happen anyway whatever. Had Truman not given the order to drop it, that would only have delayed the inevitable.

Another thing (not in this video): the Manhattan project was an international effort, not just purely American. There were British scientists at Los Alamos. After the war, Truman broke the agreement and made the bomb "USA only" - which achieved absolutely nothing except to make him look like a jerk. The British scientists just developed their own bomb at Harwell.

 

 

[Jamie123]

On 12/9/2023 at 4:29 AM, JohnsonJones said:

World War 2 is closer to some of us than our younger generation thinks. 

It does seem incredible to me that my father, who is still alive (and still drives even!) lived right through World War II and can remember rationing, evacuations, air raids and friendly American GIs sharing out their chewing gum with the kids. Yet even back when I was at school, Nazi Germany belonged to comics, war movies and history books. It was not at all connected with the colourful modern Germany that school trips sometimes went to.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Jamie123

[Vort]

The Russians had slavered over a possible invasion of Japan since before WWII began. The US clearly didn't want the USSR controlling Japan. My understanding is that the Japanese had realized for months that success was unlikely and that they would have to surrender, but they thought to stretch things out until an invasion of the Japanese mainland was inevitable, at which point they hoped to be able to sue for peace on better terms (because the Americans wouldn't have the stomach to make the sacrifice in military lives needed to successfully pull off an invasion of the Japanese islands). The thinking is that the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings broke the back of Japanese resistance to surrender among the military top brass.

Obviously, I don't know what actually went on behind closed doors; even the most avid and knowledgeable WWII historian can't read minds. But the Japanese certainly knew about the USSR's desires toward invading their homeland long before the mid-1940s. So I kind of doubt that it was fear alone of a Soviet invasion that drove Japan  to surrender.

[Vort]

17 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

the Manhattan project was an international effort, not just purely American. There were British scientists at Los Alamos.

Yeah, and German scientists, too!

[Vort]

On 12/8/2023 at 8:29 PM, JohnsonJones said:

I recently read that 1/5 of Americans do not believe the Holocaust is real.

More like 1/5th of Americans under the age of 21. I'll bet the percentage of those of that age who could not define what the WWII Holocaust was is around that same size.

[Jamie123]

Just now, Vort said:

Yeah, and German scientists, too!

Well yes - debatable. If an American comes from German immigrant stock (like Oppenheimer) do we still refer to him/ her as "German"?

[Vort]

1 minute ago, Jamie123 said:

Well yes - debatable. If an American comes from German immigrant stock (like Oppenheimer) do we still refer to him/ her as "German"?

I was thinking more along the lines of the eminent scientist Klaus Fuchs.

[LDSGator]

34 minutes ago, Jamie123 said:

Well yes - debatable. If an American comes from German immigrant stock (like Oppenheimer) do we still refer to him/ her as "German"?

Sort of, but it’s dying out. The Baby Boomers might have referred to their friends with ethnic jokes and stereotypes but if you do that now you’ll get strange looks. 

[Vort]

11 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

Sort of, but it’s dying out. The Baby Boomers might have referred to their friends with ethnic jokes and stereotypes but if you do that now you’ll get strange looks. 

I don't understand. What does Jamie's question, which was whether an American of German descent would ever be referred to as a German (the answer being "probably not"), have to do with the Baby Boomers' supposed penchant for referring to their friends with ethnic jokes and stereotypes (which I as a very late-born Boomer have never seen)?

[LDSGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

I don't understand. What does Jamie's question, which was whether an American of German descent would ever be referred to as a German (the answer being "probably not"), have to do with the Baby Boomers' supposed penchant for referring to their friends with ethnic jokes and stereotypes (which I as a very late-born Boomer have never seen)?

If I misunderstood I apologize.
 

I remember my Grandfather and Uncles often referring to their Italian friends like “that Italian guy down the street? Yeah, he’s a great mechanic.” Not an insult, the Italian guy in the neighborhood did own a garage. (Not verbatim but similar comments, for the record)

Or, “We go to the Irish church, the French people go to that one.” That’s what I was talking about. That terminology wasn’t popular when I was growing up. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by LDSGator

[Vort]

Just now, LDSGator said:

If I misunderstood I apologize.
 

I remember my Grandfather and Uncles often referring to their Italian friends like “that Italian guy down the street? Yeah, he’s a great mechanic.” (Not verbatim but similar). Or, “We go to the Irish church, the French people go to that one.” That’s what I was talking about. That terminology wasn’t popular when I was growing up. 

I didn't grow up in the East of the US, so a lot of this "melting pot/immigrant" stuff that I have heard about and seen portrayed on the screen is not a part of my own experience. I can imagine people of my generation saying something about "the Mexican lady down the street", but in that case it would probably be in reference to an actual Mexican woman, someone literally from Mexico rather than just of Mexican descent.

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

I didn't grow up in the East of the US, so a lot of this "melting pot/immigrant" stuff that I have heard about and seen portrayed on the screen is not a part of my own experience. I can imagine people of my generation saying something about "the Mexican lady down the street", but in that case it would probably be in reference to an actual Mexican woman, someone literally from Mexico rather than just of Mexican descent.

It’s not how I grew up either, but it was very common in New England working class cities like Lowell, Manchester, Worcester.  

 

I have a very Irish last name and ironically, I don’t have a drop of Irish blood in me. 

[Vort]

2 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I have a very Irish last name and ironically, I don’t have a drop of Irish blood in me. 

When I was young, I heard that the Canadian singer Gordon Lightfoot was an eighth Crow Indian or something like that. Only a year or two ago, I learned (from listening to Lightfoot himself) that he had no American Indian blood at all that he knew of, and that his surname was actually from the north of England.

[LDSGator]

3 minutes ago, Vort said:

When I was young, I heard that the Canadian singer Gordon Lightfoot was an eighth Crow Indian or something like that. Only a year or two ago, I learned (from listening to Lightfoot himself) that he had no American Indian blood at all that he knew of, and that his surname was actually from the north of England.

Same thing is happening now to the old folk singer Buffy Sainte-Marie. 
 

On the same subject, in junior high we had to write a report on our ethnic background. Just a simple little thing on the history of your nationality. I had the blondest hair and bluest eyes possible when I was younger, and with a straight face I did a report on a local Native American tribe, the Passamaquoddy. I never said I was a member, but since I didn’t know what nationality I really was, I thought I could choose anything! 

[Carborendum]

27 minutes ago, Vort said:

I didn't grow up in the East of the US, so a lot of this "melting pot/immigrant" stuff that I have heard about and seen portrayed on the screen is not a part of my own experience. I can imagine people of my generation saying something about "the Mexican lady down the street", but in that case it would probably be in reference to an actual Mexican woman, someone literally from Mexico rather than just of Mexican descent.

Yeah, I know what you mean.  I'm the Korean guy in the ward.  And wouldn't you know it?  I've got 100% Korean blood.  And I'm an immigrant.  But for some reason people are worried about calling me "the Korean guy." What do you want to call me, "the slightly shorter guy with black hair and almond eyes"?  Then it's worse because I'm an engineer.

Sheesh!  If you don't know my name, just call me the Korean guy.  That's what I am.

[LDSGator]

21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Yeah, I know what you mean.  I'm the Korean guy in the ward.  And wouldn't you know it?  I've got 100% Korean blood.  And I'm an immigrant.  But for some reason people are worried about calling me "the Korean guy." What do you want to call me, "the slightly shorter guy with black hair and almond eyes"?  Then it's worse because I'm an engineer.

Sheesh!  If you don't know my name, just call me the Korean guy.  That's what I am.

Right. It wasn’t insulting or pejorative. It wasn’t like “Ha ha ha that dirty Irish guy teaches music stay away from him.” Nope. My grandfather (a music teacher) was certainly referred to as “that Irish guy who teaches kids how to play musical instruments.”  

[CV75]

On 12/7/2023 at 2:47 PM, NeuroTypical said:

More than 2400 Americans died in the attack, including civilians, and another 1000 were wounded.

https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/pearl-harbor

My mother-in-law, who was born on Kawai and moved to Pearl City as a child, lived right on the bay and witnessed the planes coming in and dropping bombs, just before everything turned black, as a 12-year-old girl. They were so close she could see the faces of the pilots. She is still alive to tell about it and was interviewed a few years ago on the local news. 

[CV75]

On 12/8/2023 at 11:29 PM, JohnsonJones said:

World War 2 is closer to some of us than our younger generation thinks.  I had a Father and cousins that fought in World War 2.  We should never forget.

I recently read that 1/5 of Americans do not believe the Holocaust is real.  That shocks and saddens me.

I've seen how the impacts and sacrifices of those who fought the Japanese in the Pacific have been forgotten over the decades be each succeeding generation. 

How, slowly the ideas and thoughts of the Imperialist from Asia, and the Facist from Europe have been gaining ground in our modern society.

I only hope that later generations do not have to relive the horrors that we unleashed upon ourselves again because they forgot our past.

Being from NYC, we had friends who were both former German soldiers and concentration camp survivors. A former soldier stopped by when we had survivor company and though the soldier was a teenager during the war and really had no Nazi tendencies whatsoever, he got some bad verbal treatment from the Jewish couple (both having amp tattoos on their arms) and my father had to put a stop to it. Both parties remained friends with my parents.

[askandanswer]

On 12/9/2023 at 1:59 PM, JohnsonJones said:

I only hope that later generations do not have to relive the horrors that we unleashed upon ourselves again because they forgot our past.

4 O how ^afoolish, and how vain, and how evil, and devilish, and how ^bquick to do iniquity, and how slow to do good, are the children of men; yea, how quick to hearken unto the words of the evil one, and to set their ^chearts upon the vain things of the world!

5 Yea, how quick to be lifted up in ^apride; yea, how quick to ^bboast, and do all manner of that which is iniquity; and how slow are they to remember the Lord their God, and to give ear unto his counsels, yea, how slow to ^cwalk in wisdom’s paths!

[Ironhold]

Fuchida, Mitsuo, and Masatake Okumiya. "Midway: The Battle That Doomed Japan."

Fuchida was an officer with the Imperial Navy, and was part of the task force sent to Midway. However, he was struck with appendicitis after the task force was too far underway for him to be evacuated back to Japan, and so he spent the entire battle as an unwilling observer. 

It's for this reason that after the battle was over, the powers-that-be ordered him to prepare a report on what happened and what went wrong. The Japanese government was so mortified by the loss at Midway they made news of the entire battle classified information, denying that it had even happened. The final copy of Fuchida's report disappeared as part of this intense campaign of secrecy, but when he was cleaning out an old foot locker several years later he discovered a draft copy he had written. This draft copy forms the core of the book. Okumiya, an aviator with the diversionary offensive against the Aleutian Islands, provided supplementary information from there. 

For obvious reasons, when the book was published in Japan about a decade after the incident, the United States Navy was quick to acquire the rights to translate the book into English. The copy I have is a paperback edition of the Navy's translation, with annotations in place to note where the accounts differ. 

Fuchida makes it clear that the top brass of the Imperial Navy *never* entertained the idea that their military intelligence was wrong, let alone that the United States had any chance of winning. As a result, the war games they engaged in to help simulate possible events during the battle were worthless because anything that potentially caused the Imperial Navy to lose was overruled by the judges. Instead, the Imperial Navy quite literally underestimated the number of carriers the US Navy had and had no precautions in place lest the carriers approach from the direction they approached in (a scenario that had, in fact, actually emerged during the war games but was ignored). The US Navy had broken enough of Japan's codes to know that Midway was a likely target, and so had long since prepared. 

The loss at Midway broke the Japanese Navy, putting them on the defensive for virtually the rest of the war. The Battle Off Samar was their last major offensive action, and the loss of so many ships to such a small American force so put the Japanese to shame that they never recovered emotionally. This is how the kamikaze attacks got started, the utter desperation at the knowledge that the Americans couldn't be stopped as things existed. 

[NeuroTypical]

18 hours ago, CV75 said:

Being from NYC, we had friends who were both former German soldiers and concentration camp survivors.

The brother who picked the location of my church building, which started out as a branch, and then a phase 3 chapel, and is now about four different stakes, was a member of the Hitler youth who immigrated after the war.

my dad was a WWII vet, who met this person in Salt Lake years after the war. It turns out that my dad took his town. They both have clear memories of my dad marching over the bridge into Hanover. They were lifelong friends, and would faux-fight the war over and over again.

”We sure were happy to see you, [NT’s dad]!  I remember we were lined up to welcome you with flowers.“
 

“Oh, you lying [blankety-blank], if you had had a grenade you would have thrown it.“

[Ironhold]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

The brother who picked the location of my church building, which started out as a branch, and then a phase 3 chapel, and is now about four different stakes, was a member of the Hitler youth who immigrated after the war.

my dad was a WWII vet, who met this person in Salt Lake years after the war. It turns out that my dad took his town. They both have clear memories of my dad marching over the bridge into Hanover. They were lifelong friends, and would faux-fight the war over and over again.

”We sure were happy to see you, [NT’s dad]!  I remember we were lined up to welcome you with flowers.“
 

“Oh, you lying [blankety-blank], if you had had a grenade you would have thrown it.“

My maternal grandmother was a war bride. 

She didn't talk much of what life was like beforehand, and we suspect that what happened played a part in her eventual mental illness. 

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Ironhold said:

My maternal grandmother was a war bride. 

She didn't talk much of what life was like beforehand, and we suspect that what happened played a part in her eventual mental illness. 

Hardly anyone I've met that had a first-hand experience in WWII was negatively affected in some way.