I submit the Pride Matrix

[mikbone]

I have never liked the above symbolic representation of the Book of Mormon.  It's too simplistic, it suggests that if you are prosperous that you are righteous.  That if you are rich you are Godly.  And if you are poor that you deserve it from your own pride and wickedness.  

You can find yourself anywhere on the matrix depending on your current lifestyle.  You might be wealthy because you are following God and are industrious.  You can also be under a current trial and be poor but also following Jesus.  The Pride matrix might help us to be less judgy and more introspective.  

Just because someone is rich don’t assume they are good.  

The Pride Cycle is not in the Book of Mormon.  I have associated it as so due to the many lessons that I have had in the past.  You have probably done the same.

The Pride Matrix is just something I threw together today.  If you have suggestions or hate mail please share.  

Y axis describes where you are - Christ-like moves you up in the verticle range,  Satanic moves you down.

X axis is a representation of perceived wealth.  Money does not have anything to do with displaying righteousness.  Who was more righteous King Herod or Jesus Christ?

We know pretty well if we are industrious or slothful.  Also pretty easy to know if we are prideful or humble.

Think about where Job and King David were during their lives, they moved around the matrix quite a bit and in different directions.  Neither one of them really followed the pride cycle. 

 

Edited September 15, 2024 by mikbone

[zil2]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

hate mail please share

How can we send you mail without an address?

 

I think your matrix might make more sense if one axis were for "blessed / cursed"  and the other axis were for "rich / poor"

Then you have four quadrants (though one can be anywhere within the matrix):

blessed-rich

blessed-poor

cursed-rich

cursed-poor

...Does that make sense, or am I missing something?

[laronius]

If our interpretation of a thing supports a false teaching, perhaps it's our interpretation that is in error and not the thing.

Moriah 2:41 And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual...

I think this is the definition of prosperity that the pride cycle chart refers to. I also think there is merit in pointing out that prosperity does not necessarily equate to being rich. Though financial prosperity is in fact often an outcome of righteousness because the gospel reinforces those principles that lead to such but it obviously is not a guarantee of such.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, mikbone said:

I have never liked the above symbolic representation of the Book of Mormon.  It's too simplistic, it suggests that if you are prosperous that you are righteous.  That if you are rich you are Godly.  And if you are poor that you deserve it from your own pride and wickedness.  

You can find yourself anywhere on the matrix depending on your current lifestyle.  You might be wealthy because you are following God and are industrious.  You can also be under a current trial and be poor but also following Jesus.  The Pride matrix might help us to be less judgy and more introspective.  

Just because someone is rich don’t assume they are good.  

The Pride Cycle is not in the Book of Mormon.  I have associated it as so due to the many lessons that I have had in the past.  You have probably done the same.

The Pride Matrix is just something I threw together today.  If you have suggestions or hate mail please share.  

Y axis describes where you are - Christ-like moves you up in the verticle range,  Satanic moves you down.

X axis is a representation of perceived wealth.  Money does not have anything to do with displaying righteousness.  Who was more righteous King Herod or Jesus Christ?

We know pretty well if we are industrious or slothful.  Also pretty easy to know if we are prideful or humble.

Think about where Job and King David were during their lives, they moved around the matrix quite a bit and in different directions.  Neither one of them really followed the pride cycle. 

 

A matrix where the Y-axis is spiritual advancement and the X-axis is temporal advancement might help a person evaluate what is most important to them spiritually and materially under their present circumstances, but says nothing about how the Lord works with the unsteady heart of the natural man. It does represent that the Lord helps a man in material poverty feel wealthy spiritually and that a rich man will someday feel spiritually impoverished.

Helaman 12:1-6 describes how the Lord views and treats a false and unsteady heart. It uses a real event among a specific people to describe a more cosmic one for all His children. The example in this chapter comes from a particular chosen people and will not always play out for everyone in real life. But everyone needs chastening in some aspect of life, and eventually gets it.

The light of Christ creates pain (spiritual “destruction”) or relief (spiritual “prosperity”) depending on the condition of the heart (“pride” or “humility”) and choices (“wickedness” or “righteousness”). This often has the temporal parallel when the Lord specifically promises or warns His people (a lot about the saints in the D&C on that, a lot in the Book of Mormon about the Gentiles for that matter). I think the visual of a “pride cycle” is a simple tool for instruction, much like the schematic for the plan of salvation.

[mikbone]

2 hours ago, zil2 said:

I think your matrix might make more sense if one axis were for "blessed / cursed"  and the other axis were for "rich / poor"

Then you have four quadrants (though one can be anywhere within the matrix):

blessed-rich

blessed-poor

cursed-rich

cursed-poor

...Does that make sense, or am I missing something?

I think you are suggesting a 3D x, y, z axis...  That's an array, not a matrix.  And overly complicated.  

I'm trying to make something less complicated and more realistic.  

I actually don't want to replace the pride cycle.  I want the concept of the pride cycle to disappear.  

Edited September 16, 2024 by mikbone

[mikbone]

51 minutes ago, laronius said:

If our interpretation of a thing supports a false teaching, perhaps it's our interpretation that is in error and not the thing.

Moriah 2:41 And moreover, I would desire that ye should consider on the blessed and happy state of those that keep the commandments of God. For behold, they are blessed in all things, both temporal and spiritual...

I think this is the definition of prosperity that the pride cycle chart refers to. I also think there is merit in pointing out that prosperity does not necessarily equate to being rich. Though financial prosperity is in fact often an outcome of righteousness because the gospel reinforces those principles that lead to such but it obviously is not a guarantee of such.

Well the pride cycle is not based in scripture.  It's a construct that someone made up to help them to explain what they saw in the scriptures.  Unfortunately, it has been reprinted and taught so many times in lesson manuals that many now think that it is doctrine.  

For example, in my stake there was a very rich member that was well respected and a local philanthropist with his name on many civic projects.  Until it came out that his $ came from a very successful Ponzi scheme.  He was sentenced to 42 years and 8 months on 35 felony counts.  

I also had a LDS friend that was an amazing athlete.  He developed a primary bone cancer and underwent chemotherapy and 20+ surgeries including a hip disarticulation in attempt to control the cancer.  He died at the age of 37 in 2003.  He was inspiring in so many ways.  I don't believe that he was cursed.  His trial was difficult, one that he overcame with honor and distinction.  

[zil2]

15 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I think you are suggesting a 3D x, y, z axis...  That's an array an not a matrix.  And overly complicated. 

No, I'm just suggesting relabeling your axes.  Right now, you appear to be using "poor" to mean something different from "poverty", and "rich" different from "wealthy", and without an included "dictionary", that's confusing.

[mikbone]

I hate the concept of a prosperity theology

From Wikipedia - Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, the gospel of success, seed-faith gospel, Faith movement, or Word-Faith movement) is a religious belief among some Charismatic Christians that financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God for them, and that faith, positive scriptural confession, and giving to charitable and religious causes will increase one's material wealth. Material and especially financial success is seen as a sign of divine grace or favor.

The Pride matrix is a better way of visualizing reality.  

Yes Righteousness does tend to make people industrious and blessed, and usually people will improve their situation and become better off spiritually and temporally.  But not necessarily.  Good people get trials like cancer and financial compromise.  Bad people can also become very rich and appear spiritually and temporally blessed.  Be careful sitting in judgment.  

[mikbone]

24 minutes ago, zil2 said:

No, I'm just suggesting relabeling your axes.  Right now, you appear to be using "poor" to mean something different from "poverty", and "rich" different from "wealthy", and without an included "dictionary", that's confusing.

Yeah, I need better words.  

Top left should be, Prosperity?

Top right should be a work that means - poor due to trials of faith while following the gospel.  Long-suffering?

Bottom left should be Abundance of ill gotten lucure - Decadence? 

Bottom right should be spiritual and financially destitute - Wretchedness?

 

Suggestions?

Edited September 16, 2024 by mikbone

[zil2]

2 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Top left should be, Prosperity?

Top right should be a work that means - poor due to trials of faith while following the gospel.  Long-suffering?

Bottom left should be Abundance of ill gotten lucure - Oppulence? 

Bottom right should be spiritual and financially destitute - Wretchedness?

In a normal matrix, the top left would be the left half of the X axis and the top half of the Y axis.  Etc.  For example, look at Covey's time management matrix.  Horizontal is urgency, vertical is importance:

 

Right now, your quadrants are:

• top-left: Jesus, blessings
• top-right: Jesus, curses
• bottom-left: Satan, blessings
• bottom-right: Satan, curses

It makes no sense...  You need different axes.  Any more, I'm uncertain what your theory is, so I'm having a hard time guessing what they should be.  Perhaps "spiritual status" by "temporal status"?

[zil2]

FWIW, I don't believe that the pride cycle or the Book of Mormon teachings from which it is abstracted were ever meant to apply to each individual.  They are meant to apply to the whole community.  They are the enacting of God's promise: "obey and prosper".  That promise is made in every volume of scripture.  And where it's mentioned, "prosper" is not explicitly defined, but its opposite is defined as "being cut off from God", which suggests that "prosper" means "enjoy a connection with God" (covenants and the Holy Ghost, etc.).  But despite this community promise (which we see played out repeatedly and most clearly in the Book of Mormon, but also in the Old Testament), the experiences of individuals within the community seem to vary (probably because we think of "prosper" the way the natural man does, and not as the spiritual man should).

In other words, I don't see anything wrong with the pride cycle abstraction, so long as it's tied to the community as a whole - and technically, even to individuals so long as we define "prosper" in the proper way.

Edited September 16, 2024 by zil2

[mikbone]

16 minutes ago, zil2 said:

In a normal matrix, the top left would be the left half of the X axis and the top half of the Y axis.  Etc.  For example, look at Covey's time management matrix.  Horizontal is urgency, vertical is importance:

 

Right now, your quadrants are:

• top-left: Jesus, blessings
• top-right: Jesus, curses
• bottom-left: Satan, blessings
• bottom-right: Satan, curses

It makes no sense...  You need different axes.  Any more, I'm uncertain what your theory is, so I'm having a hard time guessing what they should be.  Perhaps "spiritual status" by "temporal status"?

Oh.  Its not a Covey 4 box matrix.

Y axis is righteous vs unrighteous.  The more positive you go the more righteous you are.  The more negative you go the more evil you are.  People can be neutral.

X axis is poverty vs. abundance.  

Im also horrible at making charts…

Edited September 16, 2024 by mikbone

[zil2]

13 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Oh.  Its not a Covey 4 box matrix.

Y axis is righteous vs unrighteous.  The more positive you go the more righteous you are.  The more negative you go the more evil you are.  People can be neutral.

X axis is poverty vs. abundance.  

Im also horrible at making charts…

If we want to get realistic, Covey's isn't a 4-box matrix either - in real life, both urgency and importance are scales, not "on/off" attributes.  The 4 boxes just simplify it for teaching.  The learner must then adapt it to their real life - that is, they complicate it themselves once they understand the basic principle.

Thus, yours is both a 4-box matrix and a scale.  Thus:

• Top-left: righteous & abundance
• Top-right: righteous & poverty
• Bottom-left: wicked & abundance
• Bottom-right: wicked & poverty

These are the general "groupings", but one can fall anywhere within the entire chart.

[laronius]

30 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Well the pride cycle is not based in scripture.  It's a construct that someone made up to help them to explain what they saw in the scriptures. 

I agree but it's a pretty accurate construct of what we read in the Book of Mormon. Over and over it speaks about how the people became wealthy, turned proud, indulged in sin, and disaster followed. But of course this is taking a macro view of society. You seem to want to be wanting to create something that takes a micro view of this pattern accounting for exceptions to the general rule.

[mikbone]

[mikbone]

21 minutes ago, laronius said:

I agree but it's a pretty accurate construct of what we read in the Book of Mormon. Over and over it speaks about how the people became wealthy, turned proud, indulged in sin, and disaster followed. But of course this is taking a macro view of society. You seem to want to be wanting to create something that takes a micro view of this pattern accounting for exceptions to the general rule.

Yeah, I really hate prosperity theologies.  We don’t believe in the prosperity gospel.

Nephi was continually righteous yet he went through numerous trials. 

Mormon and Moroni also had difficult trials.  

Yes at times we see these cycles within the populations within the Book of Mormon that followed prosperity and destruction.

I guess we could use the pride cycle to look at populations.  But I don’t think that it is a valuable tool to assess personal righteousness.

Edited September 16, 2024 by mikbone

[Vort]

23 minutes ago, mikbone said:

Yeah, I really hate prosperity theologies.  We don’t believe in the prosperity gospel.

Nephi was continually righteous yet he went through numerous trials.

Lehi was a great prophet. At the Lord's word, he left his substantial riches and lived out the rest of his life with his family in the wilderness, dwelling in tents. Prosperity, indeed.

[mikbone]

Also this:

It can be better represented by a simple line.

Pride ——-———> Destruction

Proverbs 16:18

Edited September 16, 2024 by mikbone

[mikbone]

And

Alma 32:16 Therefore, blessed are they who humble themselves without being compelled to be humble; or rather, in other words, blessed is he that believeth in the word of God, and is baptized without stubbornness of heart, yea, without being brought to know the word, or even compelled to know, before they will believe.

[CV75]

OK here's a stab at something:

Eternal Justice, as an eternal principle, ensures destruction for the proud and protection for the humble. This will be the case at the Last Day.

But in the meantime, in this probationary estate, we have spiritual and temporal opposition to deal with.

The Atonement of Christ enables the unsteady heart to operate so that we can foolishly react to our destruction and protection with pride, and divine mercy to take effect so that we can wisely act to our protection and destruction with humility.

A better rendering would have the loops exiting the Destruction/Protection ring intersect with the Temporal/Spiritual Enticement pathways, as shown on the original papyri  !!!

[CV75]

14 hours ago, mikbone said:

I hate the concept of a prosperity theology

From Wikipedia - Prosperity theology (sometimes referred to as the prosperity gospel, the health and wealth gospel, the gospel of success, seed-faith gospel, Faith movement, or Word-Faith movement) is a religious belief among some Charismatic Christians that financial blessing and physical well-being are always the will of God for them, and that faith, positive scriptural confession, and giving to charitable and religious causes will increase one's material wealth. Material and especially financial success is seen as a sign of divine grace or favor.

The Pride matrix is a better way of visualizing reality.  

Yes Righteousness does tend to make people industrious and blessed, and usually people will improve their situation and become better off spiritually and temporally.  But not necessarily.  Good people get trials like cancer and financial compromise.  Bad people can also become very rich and appear spiritually and temporally blessed.  Be careful sitting in judgment.  

I agree, but the Lord in His wisdom and timing sometimes uses a material object lesson such as we have in our canon to teach His chosen people eternal truths. If the prosperity gospel were a thing, it would have been stated as other revealed principles, such as those found in D&C 88, 93, etc.

[NeuroTypical]

14 hours ago, mikbone said:

We just added a new hymn with a lyric that goes "Amazing Grace!  How sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me."

As a duly elected representative of the world's wretches, as the son of a heathen, and someone who regularly is delegated someone else's important but not urgent tasks, I'll take this scripture over any of y'alls fancy charts:  

[H]e inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile.

I guess another way to put it, can you point to any part of any of your charts where a person living right there cannot come unto Christ?  If not, then why bother having a chart in the first place?

[Carborendum]

Quote

17 Think of your brethren like unto yourselves, and be familiar with all and free with your substance, that they may be rich like unto you.

18 But before ye seek for riches, seek ye for the kingdom of God.

19 And after ye have obtained a hope in Christ ye shall obtain riches, if ye seek them; and ye will seek them for the intent to do good—to clothe the naked, and to feed the hungry, and to liberate the captive, and administer relief to the sick and the afflicted.

 -- Jacob 2: 17-19

 

[mikbone]

10 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I guess another way to put it, can you point to any part of any of your charts where a person living right there cannot come unto Christ?  If not, then why bother having a chart in the first place?

YES!  

You have restated my point exceptionally.

If you follow the thread closely.  You will see that I’m not trying to replace the ‘Pride Cycle’ with my pride matrix.  

I’m trying to raise awareness that we have been moving away from eternal doctrines and spending too much time wallowing in old policy.  

Just because someone made a pretty drawing that had some element of truth within it 60 years ago does not mean that we need to present it in every church manual and Sunday School lesson for the rest of eternity.

Over the past decade I have made it a point to call out any ‘doctrine’ that has crept into our collective consciousness that is based upon something other than scripture.  

I have sat through so many church talks where there was never any mention of Jesus Christ.  

I have a list of doctrinal pet peeves that continue to be taught and celebrated within the church.  

[zil2]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

I’m trying to raise awareness

Yes, all 5 of the rest of us are now aware.   Methinks you're gonna need another platform if you want to reach a few more of us...