Perfect and Complete

[laronius]

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Something I have never understood is why the word "perfect" in this verse seems to always gets interpreted as something other than perfect. The interpretation most commonly used is "complete." I don't disagree with that definition but why can't it also mean perfect? It's like people are anxious to avoid the thought that we are commanded to be perfect.

Even if we do interpret it as being as complete as our Father in heaven, since he is perfectly complete, it is still a commandment to be perfect, perfectly complete. So why not just stick with perfect? If people get thrown off by the idea of us imperfect mortals being perfect then teach them about how the perfection process works and that it extends into the hereafter. To me that would be more helpful because it's more direct to the point. But maybe that's just me and other people understand complete better.

[mikbone]

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng

[laronius]

30 minutes ago, mikbone said:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2017/10/be-ye-therefore-perfect-eventually?lang=eng

Yes, some have spoken straight forward about this topic which I appreciate. 

[Carborendum]

14 hours ago, laronius said:

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Something I have never understood is why the word "perfect" in this verse seems to always gets interpreted as something other than perfect.

This is because the KJV is over 400 years old.  Are you familiar with the concept of semantic shift?  It means that words change meaning from century to century (even decade to decade).

14 hours ago, laronius said:

The interpretation most commonly used is "complete." I don't disagree with that definition but why can't it also mean perfect? It's like people are anxious to avoid the thought that we are commanded to be perfect.

Some people do.  Some don't.  And, yes, It does mean both.

14 hours ago, laronius said:

Even if we do interpret it as being as complete as our Father in heaven, since he is perfectly complete, it is still a commandment to be perfect, perfectly complete.

Well stated.

14 hours ago, laronius said:

So why not just stick with perfect?

I don't think it is "perfect" that causes the problem.  It is the word "be".  It is a command.  And as a command, it is often perceived to mean the "near future."  And to many, that means "right now."

But in this particular case, the Greek renders it in the future tense.  It is about being on a very long road towards a distant goal.  This is not so common in every day speech.  And it is not apparent in the English.

Thus we have a speech like the previously posted Elder Holland speech. 

14 hours ago, laronius said:

If people get thrown off by the idea of us imperfect mortals being perfect then teach them about how the perfection process works and that it extends into the hereafter. To me that would be more helpful because it's more direct to the point. But maybe that's just me and other people understand complete better.

No, I believe that the reasoning behind the tendency is a bit different.  But the solution is just as you stated.

People tend to get discouraged by the idea that they have to be perfect "right now."  Perfection is our north star, our eventual goal that can only be achieved in the eternities.  But it is still our responsibility to always be working towards it day by day, recognizing that we can't achieve it in mortality.

So, we soften it by reminding people... perfection is the goal, continued faith & repentance is the road.

Edited September 27, 2024 by Carborendum

[JohnsonJones]

Perfection is what we should seek to achieve.  It is what we should strive to be.

I heard once about a way that we CAN be perfect.  We may not be perfect in everything yet, but we can be perfect in somethings.

We can be perfect in studying the scriptures every day.  We can be perfect in reading the Book of Mormon everyday.  We can be perfect in saying our Nightly Prayers.  We can be perfect in saying our Daily Prayers. 

As we strive to be perfect on one thing and accomplish it, then we move onto the next thing to perfect and work on that.  In this way, even if we do not become perfect in this life, we can get closer to being perfect as a whole as we become perfect in small steps towards that whole. 

[CV75]

On 9/26/2024 at 8:09 PM, laronius said:

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Something I have never understood is why the word "perfect" in this verse seems to always gets interpreted as something other than perfect. The interpretation most commonly used is "complete." I don't disagree with that definition but why can't it also mean perfect? It's like people are anxious to avoid the thought that we are commanded to be perfect.

Even if we do interpret it as being as complete as our Father in heaven, since he is perfectly complete, it is still a commandment to be perfect, perfectly complete. So why not just stick with perfect? If people get thrown off by the idea of us imperfect mortals being perfect then teach them about how the perfection process works and that it extends into the hereafter. To me that would be more helpful because it's more direct to the point. But maybe that's just me and other people understand complete better.

Semantics, which I think is largely driven by the subjective personality using and hearing the word. So yes, you take it one way and other personalities take it another way. The Holy Spirit helps us take it the way the Lord meant it. To illustrate, I've included 2 sources for definition, each show context (including the word, "complete"  ):

Online:

• having all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible
• absolute; complete (used for emphasis).
• make (something) completely free from faults or defects, or as close to such a condition as possible.

1828 Webster’s

• 1Finished; complete; consummate; not defective; having all that is requisite to its nature and kind...
• 2. Fully informed; completely skilled; as men perfect in the use of arms; perfect in discipline.
• 3. Complete in moral excellencies.

[laronius]

On 9/27/2024 at 7:24 AM, Carborendum said:

 

I don't think it is "perfect" that causes the problem.  It is the word "be".  It is a command.  And as a command, it is often perceived to mean the "near future."  And to many, that means "right now."

But in this particular case, the Greek renders it in the future tense.  It is about being on a very long road towards a distant goal.  This is not so common in every day speech.  And it is not apparent in the English.

That is interesting. I still think there is an immediacy to the command because God cannot look on any sin with allowance but if there was originally an imbedded recognition that this commandment would ultimately take a very long time to achieve I could see how it would save some confusion.

[Carborendum]

On 9/28/2024 at 8:59 PM, laronius said:

I still think there is an immediacy to the command

There is.  It is the imperative.  As I stated, it implies an immediacy.

On 9/28/2024 at 8:59 PM, laronius said:

but if there was originally an imbedded recognition that this commandment would ultimately take a very long time to achieve I could see how it would save some confusion.

We tend to think that, in English, we don't really have an imperative future tense.  The future is kind of included with the idea of an imperative.  However, when we include the idea of the long road... the word we tend to use is "become."  We don't really think of "become" as a conjugation of the verb "to be."  But the etymology of "become" is from the verb "to be" as a process rather than the immediate reality.

It denotes a process that involves the transformation from one state to another state.  Sound familiar?

So, the better translation would be: 

Quote

I say unto you, become perfect even as...

Or possibly...

Continue to repent until you have become perfect even as...

That is awfully wordy.  So, it is more compact in scriptures.

The command says you need to start work on it right now.  But understand that it is a process.  Just keep working on it.

On 9/28/2024 at 8:59 PM, laronius said:

because God cannot look on any sin with allowance

I don't know the exact mechanism of exaltation.  I don't know the process or "measuring stick" by which we might obtain acceptance into the Celestial Kingdom.  But I imagine that there has to be some allowance for us to not be perfect at everything.   Otherwise, none of us would ever receive exaltation.

Yet the important thing is that we're constantly aware of our sins, and we're constantly repenting of our sins through faith in Christ.

Edited October 1, 2024 by Carborendum

[laronius]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

 

I don't know the exact mechanism of exaltation.  I don't know the process or "measuring stick" by which we might obtain acceptance into the Celestial Kingdom.  But I imagine that there has to be some allowance for us to not be perfect at everything.   Otherwise, none of us would ever receive exaltation.

So you believe that perfection, in and of ourselves, is not possible? That is interesting. I have always believed that it was possible and just assumed that is what we as a Church generally believe, but I don't know that I can immediately point to a source that specifically says so. Might be something worth researching. 🤔

[Carborendum]

1 hour ago, laronius said:

So you believe that perfection, in and of ourselves, is not possible?

No, I said that we can't achieve it IN THIS LIFE.  But we will in eternity. 

I also believe (but did not mention) that apart from resurrection, there are some exceptions.  But such exceptions are extremely rare.  As such, I did not include that in my previous comments.  We're talking about the rule, not the exception.

Jesus, himself, was an exception.  He came into this world perfectly obedient and needed no repentance.  But even He wasn't "complete" until He was resurrected.  Notice the difference in wording between Matt vs 3 Nephi.

Edited October 1, 2024 by Carborendum

[estradling75]

Note that in the when Christ gives the command to be perfect he also give examples.  When he is mortal the command was Be perfect like our Father in Heaven is perfect.   And when he give the command to the people on the America's he once again pointed to our Father in Heaven but he also pointed to himself.  Which he did not do the first time.  Think about that.  Christ did not consider himself to be an example of perfection until after the resurrection.   With Christ being our example then we know we can not gain perfection while mortal.  Does not mean that we shouldn't be working on it, because we totally should be.  But we should also know that we can't do it without Jesus and his atonement which means its on his time scale not ours

[NeuroTypical]

The folks at FAIR also have these resources.  (I haven't reviewed them yet)

Blog site
https://autumndickson.com/2024/09/22/be-perfect/

Podcast
https://open.spotify.com/episode/4cmhrWF6YOaLNzSaj9UYoP 

YouTube Video
https://youtu.be/TPqspRtQI74 

 

[Traveler]

On 9/26/2024 at 6:09 PM, laronius said:

Matt 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Something I have never understood is why the word "perfect" in this verse seems to always gets interpreted as something other than perfect. The interpretation most commonly used is "complete." I don't disagree with that definition but why can't it also mean perfect? It's like people are anxious to avoid the thought that we are commanded to be perfect.

Even if we do interpret it as being as complete as our Father in heaven, since he is perfectly complete, it is still a commandment to be perfect, perfectly complete. So why not just stick with perfect? If people get thrown off by the idea of us imperfect mortals being perfect then teach them about how the perfection process works and that it extends into the hereafter. To me that would be more helpful because it's more direct to the point. But maybe that's just me and other people understand complete better.

I would add that I have come to believe that what perfect (used in scripture by Jesus and others) means is to cooperate and do (or respond correctly) exactly as you are asked – like an obedient disciplined child or for another example a trained (disciplined) and bridled horse.

 

The Traveler

Edited October 1, 2024 by Traveler