Stick of Joseph and Stick of Judah prophecy... Debunked?!?!?

[HaggisShuu]

Hi all,

Lately I've been diving into prophecy related to the Book of Mormon and restoration found in the bible - Isaiah 29 in my opinion, is some of the strongest evidence, not just for our faith, but for God in general, as the prophecy outlined is so specific and so beautifully fulfilled by Church History.
 

The other prophecy I often see heralded as proof of the Book of Mormon is found in Ezekiel 37, which talks of the Stick of Judah (commonly interpreted as the bible) and the stick of Joseph (commonly interpreted as the book of Mormon - due to Lehi and Ishmael both hailing from the house of Joseph - being united together into one stick (the standard works). The justification is that in olden days, sticks were often used to tightly wind up scrolls. 

Personally, I am not convinced. At a glance this also appears quite convincing, but diving into it, the Hebrew words from which stick is translated, quite literally means "wood" and is not associated with scrolls or records. Additionally, D&C 27:5 talks about the committal of "they keys, of the record, of the stick of Ephraim" implying that records exist of these "sticks", but not that these sticks are records in and of themselves. It's a shame because at a glance this passage seems like another easy win for the faith, but instead comes across as a far more vague prophecy that we can argue the modern church is fulfilling through its work in gathering Israel, but is not the slam dunk prophecy about the Book Of Mormon it is currently claimed to be. Additionally, there appears to be no scholarly or apologetic work to defend the common lds interpretation, rather the opposite, all I could find was a BYU essay arguing that it isn't a convincing prophecy.  
 

Does anybody have any thoughts? 

 

 

Edited November 29, 2024 by HaggisShuu

[mordorbund]

First off, the image of sticks representing the records of Judah and Joseph is a secondary interpretation. As with the previous chapter where the assembled bones serve as a testimony of resurrection, the primary message is that Israel and Judah will be reunited. That said, the two sticks as records fits better than bones as resurrection because the Book of Mormon (as stated by Nephi) is a precursor and a facilitator of that reconciliation.

Now, on the point of the reliability of reading the sticks as books, it turns out that the word “wood” is far more versatile than you give it credit for.

https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?filename=26&article=1011&context=mi&type=additionalhttps://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?filename=26&article=1011&context=mi&type=additional
 

see the section on “What is an ‘Etz’?

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, HaggisShuu said:

proof of the Book of Mormon

I don't think such a thing exists.   We have evidence for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, but not proof.  Some of it is good evidence, some is weaker evidence.  But no proof.

You can't reason or prove yourself into a testimony.

[Traveler]

1 hour ago, HaggisShuu said:

Hi all,

Lately I've been diving into prophecy related to the Book of Mormon and restoration found in the bible - Isaiah 29 in my opinion, is some of the strongest evidence, not just for our faith, but for God in general, as the prophecy outlined is so specific and so beautifully fulfilled by Church History.
 

The other prophecy I often see heralded as proof of the Book of Mormon is found in Ezekiel 37, which talks of the Stick of Judah (commonly interpreted as the bible) and the stick of Joseph (commonly interpreted as the book of Mormon - due to Lehi and Ishmael both hailing from the house of Joseph - being united together into one stick (the standard works). The justification is that in olden days, sticks were often used to tightly wind up scrolls. 

Personally, I am not convinced. At a glance this also appears quite convincing, but diving into it, the Hebrew words from which stick is translated, quite literally means "wood" and is not associated with scrolls or records. Additionally, D&C 27:5 talks about the committal of "they keys, of the record, of the stick of Ephraim" implying that records exist of these "sticks", but not that these sticks are records in and of themselves. It's a shame because at a glance this passage seems like another easy win for the faith, but instead comes across as a far more vague prophecy that we can argue the modern church is fulfilling through its work in gathering Israel, but is not the slam dunk prophecy about the Book Of Mormon it is currently claimed to be. Additionally, there appears to be no scholarly or apologetic work to defend the common lds interpretation, rather the opposite, all I could find was a BYU essay arguing that it isn't a convincing prophecy.  
 

Does anybody have any thoughts? 

 

 

Jesus cautioned his apostles about the vagueness of divine revelation.  His warning was that sacred things are not for the world but only those that are guided by the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost).  There should be no doubt that the stick of Joseph and the stick of Juda conveys something of divine importance – that in the last-days would unite and become a powerful tool in the last-days.

It is easy to understand that a stick means something.  I would suggest that among other things that it relates to a staff similar to that of Moses, that was used as a sign of divine calling of Moses in delivering Israel from Egypt.

I have personally sought divine guidance concerning what is meant by the sticks as we read Ezekiel.  I have been assured that indeed it does reference the Book of Mormon and the Bible but that is not all.  That it also includes the gathering of Israel that has been scattered but will be “shepherded” by two leaders or houses.  Though I do not have all the details – I think there may be a reference to a religious part and a political part.  The religious part being the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and a political part being the state of Israel (which is the house of Juda).

We would not have an Old Testament if not for Juda.  Nor would we have a New Testament (Jesus being a Jew) if not for Juda.  So definitely there is more to the sticks than just scripture.  There is an entire culture.  The Book of Mormon is a necessary addition.  Even though there was an entire civilization lost it now speaks from the dust and through a remnant of Joseph that has maintained the priesthood keys of the restoration.

As Joseph revealed to Pharoah – there are two witnesses that are one is a sign from G-d that it is by his power that the prophesy will come to pass.

 

The Traveler

[Traveler]

39 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

I don't think such a thing exists.   We have evidence for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, but not proof.  Some of it is good evidence, some is weaker evidence.  But no proof.

You can't reason or prove yourself into a testimony.

There is proof of the Book of Mormon but like all things of G-d it only comes to those through covenant and by the gift of the Spirit.  However, there will come a time that there will be proof of all things.  Until then, faith is required in order to have assurances that the evidences given are true – just as Alma prophesied that a seed is planted in faith and then nurtured to grow until the fruits of knowledge can be harvested.

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

On 11/29/2024 at 12:19 PM, HaggisShuu said:

The justification is that in olden days, sticks were often used to tightly wind up scrolls. 

That explanation is not that strong.  I had a different impression when reading it. 

The Hebrew word used in Ezekiel is עֵץ (ates; i.e. 8s).  As you said, unencumbered by context, it simply means "wood."  Note that it is in the singular form.  The Hebrew use of singular or plural when speaking of a "mass" is different than English.  We say "much" vs "many".  We have "much wood" or we have many "pieces of wood."  But there is only one word for "much" or "many" in Hebrew.  Hence we get the phrase "many waters" since water is always rendered in the plural form in Hebrew.

But a "stick" doesn't really give the right meaning.  The singular form simply means a piece of wood small enough to carry with you as opposed to a piece of wood large (plural) enough that you have to have help moving (usually).

To further emphasize this, verse 20 says:

Quote

And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

So, if you have ever seen someone writing on a clipboard, it will be blatantly obvious.  Before the days where paper or parchment were abundant, most people wrote on boards of wood.  This is further correlated to writing on pieces of wood when we look at Numbers 17:

Quote

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and take of every one of them a rod according to the house of their fathers, of all their princes according to the house of their fathers twelve rods: write thou every man’s name upon his rod.

3 And thou shalt write Aaron’s name upon the rod of Levi: for one rod shall be for the head of the house of their fathers.

 -- Numbers 17: 2-3

To have the names from their families provides a broad application of the significance of these "sticks" (I'd say "boards/planks").  They are a record.  A record of family names.  And they are taken to the tabernacle (which was the precursor to the temple).

Quote

4 And thou shalt lay them up in the tabernacle of the congregation before the testimony¹, where I will meet with you.

 -- Numbers 17: 4

These rods are temple records.  We take names to the temple and meet with God.

Footnote #1: עֵדוּת /ay-dooth'/ does mean testimony. But it also means witness.  

• ergo, take family names (on pieces of wood -- or in a book) to the temple before witnesses and meet with God.  This is further emphasized because the Hebrew word for "rod/branch" also means "tribe."

Even better...  If you look at both the Bible and the Book of Mormon through a temple lens, all of a sudden, the meaning of the scriptures open up.  Our ears of understanding are opened... hence the saying: He who hath an ear to hear, let him hear.   This means, "if you know about the Temple ceremony, listen up."

 

Now comes the fun part.

The Old Testament books were kept in two lines.  The line of Judah and the line of Joseph.  Those records had a lot of overlap. But they also differed in many respects.  Not all prophets from the tribe of Judah were recorded in the book of Joseph, and vice-versa.  We have some of the words from that were kept by Joseph's line that Judah did not necessarily keep records of.

The records which we have that we include in the Bible are primarily brought to us from the line of Judah.  Those records were in the hands of the tribe of Judah at the time of Christ and the early Church.

The record that Nephi obtained from Laban was the record of Joseph.  Much overlapped, but we know that it had records that we don't have from the Stick of Judah as we know it.  We also know that there is another set of records that is twice as long as the Book of Mormon (the sealed 2/3).  Joseph Smith was of the tribe of Ephraim. Thus we have the Stick of Joseph in the hand of an Ephraimite.

Once we have those other records, we'll not only see revelations that are too great to share right now, but we will also have the remaining records that were kept by the prophets from the tribe of Joseph.

I wonder if we'll have the records of the other 10 tribes.

Edited December 4, 2024 by Carborendum

[HaggisShuu]

Thank you for your answers, I will admit I mainly started this thread because I like the interpretation of the sticks being the bible and book of Mormon. It just didn't convince me, but this has given me some things to read and points to consider so I appreciate it. 

[HaggisShuu]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I don't think such a thing exists.   We have evidence for the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon, but not proof.  Some of it is good evidence, some is weaker evidence.  But no proof.

You can't reason or prove yourself into a testimony.

Yes I understand this. My conversion came from purely spiritual experiences. This is mostly an exercise in affirming my faith. 
 

However, I do think that enough evidence exists that when you pile it all together, it becomes harder and harder to deny the truth claims of the Church. 
 

Some of my strongest spiritual experiences have come from an odd little verse here, a strange finding there and allowing it to eventually compound into something rather convincing. 

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

I wonder if we'll have the records of the other 10 tribes.

Quote

2 Nephi 29:13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

 

[laronius]

One of the footnotes from Ezekiel says this:

HEB wood. Wooden writing tablets were in common use in Babylon in Ezekiel’s day. Num. 17:2 (1–10). TG Scriptures to Come Forth.

To me this makes more sense. But regardless of what the medium is it's the fact that it's a record of prophetic nature that ultimately matters.

[Carborendum]

On 11/29/2024 at 5:28 PM, zil2 said:

2 Nephi 29:13 And it shall come to pass that the Jews shall have the words of the Nephites, and the Nephites shall have the words of the Jews; and the Nephites and the Jews shall have the words of the lost tribes of Israel; and the lost tribes of Israel shall have the words of the Nephites and the Jews.

I just realized something.  It may be that we actually have the records of the lost tribes already exposed (at least some of it).  There are many documents that are kept in the catacombs of several orthodox churches that don't really see the light of day.

The Palea is such a document.  I recently learned that it contains a longer version of the vision of Jacob's Ladder.  The missing words that are found in the Palea talk about 12 dispensations and the coming of the Messiah and several other things.

The reason why it was removed was that each dispensation indicates an apostasy in between them.  And a scribe during one of the apostate eras saw that and said, "Ok, let's just remove those verses here."  He didn't want people to see that there was a discontinuity of authority between dispensations.  They also wanted to hide all mentions of a Messiah that was the Son of G-d.  A messiah like David, they could accept.  But a divine Messiah who would take away our sins?  No.  They must be taught that the Law alone grants salvation.

But documents survive in various forms.  I wonder if many of the documents that are stored in back rooms of musty libraries of ancient churches have more than we know.

[Maverick]

On 11/29/2024 at 11:19 AM, HaggisShuu said:

Hi all,

Lately I've been diving into prophecy related to the Book of Mormon and restoration found in the bible - Isaiah 29 in my opinion, is some of the strongest evidence, not just for our faith, but for God in general, as the prophecy outlined is so specific and so beautifully fulfilled by Church History.
 

The other prophecy I often see heralded as proof of the Book of Mormon is found in Ezekiel 37, which talks of the Stick of Judah (commonly interpreted as the bible) and the stick of Joseph (commonly interpreted as the book of Mormon - due to Lehi and Ishmael both hailing from the house of Joseph - being united together into one stick (the standard works). The justification is that in olden days, sticks were often used to tightly wind up scrolls. 

Personally, I am not convinced. At a glance this also appears quite convincing, but diving into it, the Hebrew words from which stick is translated, quite literally means "wood" and is not associated with scrolls or records. Additionally, D&C 27:5 talks about the committal of "they keys, of the record, of the stick of Ephraim" implying that records exist of these "sticks", but not that these sticks are records in and of themselves. It's a shame because at a glance this passage seems like another easy win for the faith, but instead comes across as a far more vague prophecy that we can argue the modern church is fulfilling through its work in gathering Israel, but is not the slam dunk prophecy about the Book Of Mormon it is currently claimed to be. Additionally, there appears to be no scholarly or apologetic work to defend the common lds interpretation, rather the opposite, all I could find was a BYU essay arguing that it isn't a convincing prophecy.  
 

Does anybody have any thoughts? 

 

 

The primary meaning of the "stick" of Joseph is "tribe" of Joseph. The "record of the stick of Ephraim" (D&C 27:5) is the record of the tribe/nation of Ephraim/Joseph. The prophecy of the stick of Judah and stick of Joseph becoming one is primarily referring to the tribes/nations of Ephraim/Joseph (Israel) and Judah being reunited as single people as part of the gathering of Israel. This prophecy has not yet been fulfilled. A quick look at the verse in context plainly shows this:

19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

20 ¶ And the sticks whereon thou writest shall be in thine hand before their eyes.

21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:

22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God. (Ezekiel 37:19-23)

However, a secondary prophecy or shadow fulfillment of the prophecy is the Book of Mormon (part of the record of the stick/tribe of Ephraim/Joseph) and the Bible (record of the stick/tribe of Judah) coming together and being one in the hand of the latter-day reader. This fits with verse 20 above. 

Edited December 5, 2024 by Maverick

[zil2]

Just gonna leave this here...