Democrats Making a Shift

[Vort]

11 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I’ll still never understand why you live in one of the most liberal cities in the country. Not a pejorative- I don’t understand why leftists live in rural Florida either.    

Because I was born in the state, and the eastside of Seattle was my home for nearly 30 years before my recent relocation to the eastern part of the state. Not everyone has the means to move away from places they no longer like (or, in my case, places that no longer like them). And not everyone has the inclination to leave behind friends, scenery, and haunts that have been their home and formed an important part of their lives for decades.

[Carborendum]

6 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Yes. And I don't see any imminent threats to human survival caused by lack of procreation. I

Then you are blind.  Apart from many third-world countries (mostly in Africa) and some Middle Eastern nations, all nations have decreased their fertility rates in just this past generation.  Many are now below replacement levels (2.1).  This includes the United States (1.7 -- down from 2023 @ 1.8).  That is only that high because of the presence of LDS and Amish.  Take us out and it is 1.6. 

South Korea (0.7) will be dead in four or five generations unless they turn around.  And before that, their economy will crumble just as the second generation grows into adulthood.

Also keep in mind that those countries with higher birth rates also tend to be ones in which they have a high pre-adult mortality rate.

The global fertility rate is 2.3.  And the required rate for stability is also 2.3.  But the fertility rate is dropping in ALL nations.

That is an imminent threat to human survival by lack of procreation.

Edited December 24, 2024 by Carborendum

[LDSGator]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

Because I was born in the state, and the eastside of Seattle was my home for nearly 30 years before my recent relocation to the eastern part of the state. Not everyone has the means to move away from places they no longer like (or, in my case, places that no longer like them). And not everyone has the inclination to leave behind friends, scenery, and haunts that have been their home and formed an important part of their lives for decades.

Understand. Like I said, it’s not a pejorative. Leftists who live in rural Florida and do nothing but whine about how red the state is baffle me. If they dislike it that much, move. 

[LDSGator]

I left New Hampshire years ago for many reasons, and politics was right up there. I hated how blue the state was becoming. I didn’t want to be that guy who just whines about his circumstance and doesn’t change them.  Best choice I ever made, hands down. 

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

Understand. Like I said, it’s not a pejorative. Leftists who live in rural Florida and do nothing but whine about how red the state is baffle me. If they dislike it that much, move. 

 

That is how I feel about the non LDS bigots in Utah.

 

No (for the dense) I did not just say all non LDS are bigots.

[mirkwood]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

I left New Hampshire years ago for many reasons, and politics was right up there. I hated how blue the state was becoming. I didn’t want to be that guy who just whines about his circumstance and doesn’t change them.  Best choice I ever made, hands down. 

Dude, you left because of snow.

[LDSGator]

15 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

Dude, you left because of snow.

No argument there. There are a ton of reasons why I left. Weather, politics, and a few more.  

[LDSGator]

20 minutes ago, mirkwood said:

 

That is how I feel about the non LDS bigots in Utah.

 

No (for the dense) I did not just say all non LDS are bigots.

Yeah, I don’t know why you’d choose to live in Utah if you had a thing against LDS. 

As crazy as it sounds, I think some people like the misery, like the complaining, or like pretending to be persecuted. That’s why a lot of anti-LDS people stay in Utah. 

Edited December 24, 2024 by LDSGator

[Phoenix_person]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

One of us has never lived in Seattle. And I disbelieve that Seattle is far outside the norm for urban/lefty places.

Seattle, which I only know by reputation, is extremely outside the norm from leftist hubs that I've experienced, which are mostly on the East Coast. Most people who have experienced both coasts will tell you that there's a night-and-day difference in the left-leaning folks. Not a lot of hippies coming out of cities like Boston and Philadelphia, but plenty of leftists. I've never been to the PNW, but I've met liberals from there and I honestly get why conservatives (and East Coast leftists) can't stand them.

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Have I written anything to suggest I don't still hold that view?

Nothing specific, no. It just seems that you've become more accepting of the GOP's shortcomings over the years and less accepting of the DNC's. Heck, I think I remember you being a neverTrumper (I could be wrong about that, feel free to correct me if so). I know you've explained the reasons for your change in stance, which I appreciate. I still struggle to wrap my head around it. 

2 hours ago, Vort said:

Behold the functioning, such as it is, of the leftist mind.

It's entirely possible that I misread your meaning here, but the bolded wording is what raised my eyebrow. It's not uncommon for people (in both polarities) to suggest that people on the "other side" must be mentally ill to believe what they do. It's wrong and disgusting no matter who does it. Yes, I'm mentally ill. I have not been shy about that since it nearly killed me two years ago. I don't believe that there is a significant connection between my mental illness and politics, aside from the fact that I sustained severe head trauma and PTSD in a war I hated, but I was already against the war before all that happened. Suggesting that leftism/conservatism/whateverism is linked to mental illness perpetuates negative stigmas about mental illness. It seemed from the bolded wording that that was what you were doing. I apologize if I misread your intent.

2 hours ago, Vort said:

You are looking in a mirror. PP. That is almost exactly the entire content, top to bottom, of pretty much everything you post. For example, take a look at the post I'm quoting you from. "I hate Democrats, but they're a far sight better than Republicans."

I've never been shy about my disdain for the DNC, mostly because I am aware of their reputation among Republicans (and fellow leftists) and it's important to me to distance myself from that. I'd love a viable and competitive leftist third party, but we don't have one. Hence, I work with what I have. So you can hopefully see why the binary framing of left/right D/R gets frustrating. I get accusations thrown at me all the time that are completely unrelated to me personally, or anyone I consider ideologically similar (like racism against Powell, who I was *trying* to go easy on). But yes, I am guilty of finger-pointing too, sometimes. And you're right to call it out.

I truly do appreciate the insights I get from posters like you. And yes, I get too defensive sometimes. Most online political spaces I visit aren't nearly as civil and well-moderated as this one.

3 hours ago, Vort said:

To put it in leftspeak, something about your arguments and presentation triggers me, and I can only sit quietly for so long before I feel the burning need to point out inconsistencies and prevarications.

Ditto, if we're being honest, though it's not just you. 

3 hours ago, Vort said:

That's my fault, not yours. But your condemnation of me and pretense to being offended because I'm so nasty to you is tissue-paper thin. 

Fair enough. I apologize if I'm also too quick to be defensive sometimes (and I know that I am). I think we could both benefit a great deal from logging off and enjoying time with our families. Merry Christmas.

[Phoenix_person]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

Yeah, I don’t know why you’d choose to live in Utah if you had a thing against LDS. 

As crazy as it sounds, I think some people like the misery, like the complaining, or like pretending to be persecuted. That’s why a lot of anti-LDS people stay in Utah. 

I couldn't get out of Texas fast enough. Too hot and too conservative. Plus @pam was about to move there. 😜 (I legitimately am very bummed that we never got to meet IRL).

[Vort]

26 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

Heck, I think I remember you being a neverTrumper (I could be wrong about that, feel free to correct me if so).

I don't believe I was ever an actual Never Trump-er, but I was very much against Trump in 2016. I believe the only concession I made was that, if forced to choose, I would vote for him over Hillary. (<sarcasm>Huge concession </sarcasm>) As it was, I voted for Pothead Johnson, a badge of shame I will always secretly wear.

26 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

I know you've explained the reasons for your change in stance, which I appreciate. I still struggle to wrap my head around it. 

Perhaps surprisingly, it was not a reaction to the incessantly and ridiculously negative press coverage. Though the over-the-top, nonstop criticism did not have the desired effect on me--if anything, it might have made me more receptive to the idea of reconsidering my negative opinions on Trump--I am not enough of a reactionary to vote for someone I detest just because someone writes something stupid.

Rather, to my surprise and pleasure, I found out that Trump, for all his nonstop bloviating and desire to stir up contention and put a thumb in his opponent's eye, was a remarkably effective president who did a whole lot of very good things, more than any president since Clinton, probably since Reagan. His results, rather than his persona, converted me from an antiTrumper to someone who voted for him in both 2020 and 2024. If I was not exactly an enthusiastic Trump supporter, and was and remain a reasonably solid supporter. I didn't vote for him despite misgivings; I voted for him because he was not only the clearly best choice we had, but he was actually a pretty darn good choice. At least, so it seemed (and seems) to me.

26 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

4 hours ago, Vort said:

Behold the functioning, such as it is, of the leftist mind.

It's entirely possible that I misread your meaning here, but the bolded wording is what raised my eyebrow. It's not uncommon for people (in both polarities) to suggest that people on the "other side" must be mentally ill to believe what they do. It's wrong and disgusting no matter who does it. Yes, I'm mentally ill. I have not been shy about that since it nearly killed me two years ago.

Okay, I can see that. I retract my wording. I did not mean to imply any such personal, pointed, nasty insult, and if that's how it came across, then I apologize sincerely. My derision was toward leftist thought or what often passes for it, which I consider to be often twisted and sometimes delusional, but not toward you personally, and certainly not toward any mental illness you may deal with.

26 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

I think we could both benefit a great deal from logging off and enjoying time with our families. Merry Christmas.

I agree with you. Merry Chrismas to you, PP, sincerely.

 

Edited December 24, 2024 by Vort

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, Phoenix_person said:

(I legitimately am very bummed that we never got to meet IRL).

I had the pleasure of meeting her in real life. So very glad Melissa and I did. She’s awesome. 

[pam]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

I had the pleasure of meeting her in real life. So very glad Melissa and I did. She’s awesome. 

I was on my best behavior that day.   

[LDSGator]

34 minutes ago, pam said:

I was on my best behavior that day.   

And yet you still got arrested!
 

whoops, ignore that everyone. Uh, Merry Christmas!   

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, pam said:

I was on my best behavior that day.   

I heard you were wearing a pretty cool ballcap that day.

[pam]

11 hours ago, LDSGator said:

And yet you still got arrested!
 

whoops, ignore that everyone. Uh, Merry Christmas!   

If I remember correctly, you were the jerk that turned me in.

[Traveler]

On 12/24/2024 at 12:01 PM, LDSGator said:

I left New Hampshire years ago for many reasons, and politics was right up there. I hated how blue the state was becoming. I didn’t want to be that guy who just whines about his circumstance and doesn’t change them.  Best choice I ever made, hands down. 

 

On 12/24/2024 at 1:49 PM, mirkwood said:

 

That is how I feel about the non LDS bigots in Utah.

 

No (for the dense) I did not just say all non LDS are bigots.

I believe that it is prophesied that the world will be divided between the two camps of Zion and Babylon.  I do not think that plays out as conservative or liberals, red or blue or even democrats and republicans.  But it is possible that divisions could be initiated along such lines.

I am not looking forward to the era of great division.

 

The Traveler

[pam]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

 

I am not looking forward to the era of great division.

 

I thought we were already there.  

[Traveler]

14 minutes ago, pam said:

I thought we were already there.  

I do not think so – I think most of the world are fence sitters. 🤢

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Traveler said:

I do not think so – I think most of the world are fence sitters. 🤢

This is an interesting comment.  During this last election, the votes came not from the woke left or the religious right.  It was largely people wanting what was best for themselves.  So, what happens when the majority vote for an evil ideology rather than their self-interest?

That's when we will see the separation of the wheats and the tares.

[LDSGator]

3 hours ago, Traveler said:

I do not think so – I think most of the world are fence sitters. 🤢

 

The Traveler

I thought that way too when I was younger but as I got older I tried to see others perspectives and how they got to their positions. Some people are sitting on the fence because they try to be as fair and objective as they possibly can. 

[Vort]

41 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I thought that way too when I was younger but as I got older I tried to see others perspectives and how they got to their positions. Some people are sitting on the fence because they try to be as fair and objective as they possibly can. 

I think fence-sitting is sometimes the only honest alternative, when you have no good way to distinguish between two possibilities. Fence-sitting gets its well-deserved bad reputation from people who ignore or even reject what should be solid evidences of truth because they're more concerned with their reputation or what their friends think of them than they are the truth.

[LDSGator]

6 minutes ago, Vort said:

Fence-sitting gets its well-deserved bad reputation from people who ignore or even reject what should be solid evidences of truth because they're more concerned with their reputation or what their friends think of them than they are the truth.

I’m not talking about the Swiss here. That kind of neutrality is repulsive. But if someone has honest questions about faith, politics or something and it causes them to not make up their mind-I understand that totally.    

[Traveler]

On 12/26/2024 at 4:48 PM, Vort said:

I think fence-sitting is sometimes the only honest alternative, when you have no good way to distinguish between two possibilities. Fence-sitting gets its well-deserved bad reputation from people who ignore or even reject what should be solid evidences of truth because they're more concerned with their reputation or what their friends think of them than they are the truth.

I understand what you are saying, and I often act in that manner – but it makes me very nervous and concerned.   The biggest concern is myself.  Perhaps it is the mathematician and engineer in me – maybe a little of a mental disorder (OCD).  I cannot leave an unsolved problem alone.  Well, I could but I don’t.   Mostly I do not like myself leaving an unsolved problem for someone else to define for me.

I think I should explain more.  There are very few things I have encountered that I believe have the resolved solution available.   It is up to me to come up with the best possibility and move forward.  This is in part how I understand the scripture that indicates we should study from the best books.  And so, I gather the best information I can.  I consult with those I trust and believe to be the best sources to provide background information that I can exchange ideas with.  I begin to formulate ideas and theories and check out how well my thinking fits.  As I formulate an opinion and resolution – I then make it a manor of prayer – sometimes adding fasting.

Usually what I end up with is a best possibility and go with it.  Going with it means I also want to keep an open mind – especially when or if I can encounter any alternatives.  On rare occasions I am able to conclude that I have the solution to which nothing can be added.  Right now I cannot think of anything so concluded.

An example:  I have received (more than once but one particular very powerful) manifestation that the Book of Mormon is the most divinely scripture available.  The problem I continually deal with is in understanding all the light and truth that is available to me in studying and pondering the Book of Mormon.

Bottom line – I cannot reconcile any fence sitting logic.  I would rather study at my best and make a wrong decision than to not make a decision at all.  I value freedom, liberty and the exercise of agency to ignore anything that matters.

 

The Traveler

[Carborendum]

A few Jewish Democrat lawmakers are now changing their affiliation because of too many leftists chanting "From the River to the Sea."