Democrats Making a Shift

[Vort]

47 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

Again, Obamacare caused a LOT more problems than it created solved.

FTFY.

[Vort]

18 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Yep.  This story pretty much ended all the 'police systematic racism' arguments out there.  

Yes, and we see how effectively those arguments ended.

[Ironhold]

2 hours ago, Vort said:

FTFY.

I had to have a bit of a talk with the staff at the wound care clinic today.

Back in the Fall of 2022 I had a real-life event that pushed me to the limit physically and mentally, such that I basically blew my heart out. It's been a long road to recovery, and as part of it I've had swelling in my legs and feet. My cardiologist seconded me to the wound care facility at a local hospital to deal with it, and I've been seeing them every so many weeks since. 

Well, last December I was supposed to have an in-home visit from someone who dealt in medical devices. He was supposed to check me out for a special device that would help with my legs, but an hour before he was supposed to show up he called me to cancel.

1. He was so busy he couldn't make it.

2. My deductible was the highest he'd ever seen and I was nowhere close to even meeting it despite it being December, so I'd have had to pay out of pocket anyway. 

In his eyes, it was better for everyone if I waited until this year started. 

I had to explain to wound care what happened, how high my deductible was, and why I got stuck with such a terrible Exchange insurance plan to where I'm not getting all of the treatment I need. 

[NeuroTypical]

On 1/3/2025 at 7:27 AM, NeuroTypical said:

My point is: When the right gets extreme it doesn't go fascist or authoritarian - it turns into a conspiracy nut flying a flag and waving a shotgun out of his 2nd story window demanding to be left alone. 

Heh.  And within a week of me making this post, we came home to discover our quiet little neighborhood in the middle of nowhere, full of red and blue lights.  Apparently one of my neighbors (and I can't tell you how unsurprised I was to learn which one), had shot at a gas company guy for trying to do gas company things on their property.   I may have posted pictures of their property with all the high fences and trump flags before.    We'll never see this neighbor in any sort of political demonstration characterized by the media as 'alt-right'.  

[Carborendum]

11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Heh.  And within a week of me making this post, we came home to discover our quiet little neighborhood in the middle of nowhere, full of red and blue lights.  Apparently one of my neighbors (and I can't tell you how unsurprised I was to learn which one), had shot at a gas company guy for trying to do gas company things on their property.   I may have posted pictures of their property with all the high fences and trump flags before.    We'll never see this neighbor in any sort of political demonstration characterized by the media as 'alt-right'.  

Did the Gas guy live?

[NeuroTypical]

Oh yeah.  I didn't see it happen, but I'm assuming the neighbor was "jus' tryin' ta sceer him off".   Still got arrested and hauled away.   

[Carborendum]

38 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Oh yeah.  I didn't see it happen, but I'm assuming the neighbor was "jus' tryin' ta sceer him off".   Still got arrested and hauled away.   

Well, when you say that you weren't surprised to learn who fired the gun, that makes me think that he's going to continue being that way for a while.

[Vort]

SMH

[mirkwood]

2 minutes ago, Vort said:

SMH

 

You have NO idea...

[prisonchaplain]

I've been watching clips of Bill Maher chastising liberals for being nonsensical and extreme on some issues. He's still far more of a Democrat than a Republican. Another friend of mine, who happens to be a Buddhist monk, sympathized with center-right voters, because he knew we had serious moral issues with our candidate, but it would be near-impossible for us to stomach Harris. He self-identifies as center-left and so found it easier to endure a Harris vote. Now that Trump has won, I wonder if Democrats will moderate and regain some momentum. If they don't, the shift will only increase. 

[Phoenix_person]

On 1/6/2025 at 3:29 PM, Vort said:

2025 debate technique:

Make any assertion you want—literally anything, the more far-fetched or absurd, the better. Then, when someone asks you for evidence of your ridiculous assertion, simply tell them that they need to get off their fat butt and go find out for themselves, because you sure as heck aren't going to do their work for them.

This technique is really brilliant. Not only do you get to make your unsupported point without having to defend it (a huge win when your point is indefensible), but you also get to preach most righteously that you "are done" finding the information for them that they should rightfully have already found for themselves, the lazy bums.

I have stepped away from online platforms that deal in right wing extremism in order to protect my mental health. That doesn't mean that I suddenly forgot all the filth I used to see daily on platforms like Gab and Twitter, and even a lot of my FB groups. THAT'S what I mean when I say I'm done going through the rubbish. I'm speaking from past experience, I'm not looking to jump back into those dumpster fires.

And if I post something without sources or examples, it's probably something that can be substantiated in under 30 seconds on Google. I usually keep it to myself if I can't easily source it or doubt that I could if needed. I see claims and allegations made in here all the time without reference or context. But it only seems to be a problem when I do it. 

[LDSGator]

4 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

I have stepped away from online platforms that deal in right wing extremism in order to protect my mental health. That doesn't mean that I suddenly forgot all the filth I used to see daily on platforms like Gab and Twitter, and even a lot of my FB groups. THAT'S what I mean when I say I'm done going through the rubbish. I'm speaking from past experience, I'm not looking to jump back into those dumpster fires.

And if I post something without sources or examples, it's probably something that can be substantiated in under 30 seconds on Google. I usually keep it to myself if I can't easily source it or doubt that I could if needed. I see claims and allegations made in here all the time without reference or context. But it only seems to be a problem when I do it. 

The worst right wing extremism isn’t what we see on Twitter-it’s the stuff we can’t see. If you can see the kick coming you can defend yourself. It’s the kick you don’t see that you have to worry about it 

[NeuroTypical]

25 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

I have stepped away from online platforms that deal in right wing extremism in order to protect my mental health.

Random thoughts:

- Mental health is worth protecting.  Social media fasts, avoidance of doomscrolling, touching grass, and all the rest - healthy good things.

- I see endless, endless, ENDLESS examples of what you're talking about.  There are plenty of horrible people from all sides of all fences, in all camps, and claims like "yeah, but not MY people" is a nonserious claim.

- That said, I maintain 90% of those horrible people you call "right wing extremists" have little or nothing to do with principled constitutional conservatism.  I doubt most of them could spell the words, much less have any understanding of what they mean.  Children, immature adults, folks who get jollies from trolling for negative reactions - those folks make up the bulk.

- A point I don't want lost: When folks right of center get extreme, they don't turn into these people.  Racism or fascism or misogyny is not the logical outcome of pimping your Hayek or juicing your Sowell or becoming the most zealous fan of Milton Friedman.  But when folks left of center get extreme, they do indeed naturally progress from socialism to marxism/communism and yes, fascism.   Because the more left you go, the more you're sold on the need to centrally plan for communities and nations, and the more you require power to implement your agenda.     In other words, if utopia existed, you could be a left winger in a right wing utopia, but you couldn't be a right winger in a left wing utopia.    It's a legitimate real and stark difference between the two.

[LDSGator]

7 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Social media fasts, avoidance of doomscrolling, touching grass, and all the rest - healthy good things.

What’s funny? My mental health increases the more time I’m connected to others on social media. I’d never go back to a time when it wasn’t available. 

Edited January 11 by LDSGator

[askandanswer]

On 12/24/2024 at 9:40 AM, LDSGator said:

@mirkwood can’t do hugs either. Part of his parole conditions.  

How many pages is the list of conditions?

[askandanswer]

On 12/27/2024 at 7:20 AM, Carborendum said:

 So, what happens when the majority vote for an evil ideology rather than their self-interest?

That's when we will see the separation of the wheats and the tares.

27 And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity, then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land.

[Phoenix_person]

9 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Because the more left you go, the more you're sold on the need to centrally plan for communities and nations, and the more you require power to implement your agenda.   

Would you characterize Iran's Islamic regime as far left or far right? And why?

[Carborendum]

2 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Would you characterize Iran's Islamic regime as far left or far right? And why?

Neither.  It is on the Y-axis.

I understand that you believe it to be right-wing because it is "religious."  But plenty of religious societies in history would never dream of becoming totalitarian.

The Greeks ostensibly "invented" democracy.  Yet they were certainly a religious society.

The Soviet Union, CCP, and North Korea are all examples of totalitarian states that are absolutely atheist.

You have to understand that "which religion" matters.

I have now met three very proud Christians who fled Iran due to religious persecution.  They are very happy to live in a nation of religious freedom, including the right to NOT be religious.

Islam continues to be very oppressive by western standards in every single nation that they institute Islam as the national religion.  OTOH, ever since the reformation, Christianity has developed as separate from state power.  Even the Catholics and the Church of England have lost the governmental power that it once wielded.  Islam has not gone away from that.

Jews still believe in the Law of Moses as God's law (both religious and secular laws are included).  But they also understand that they do not wield governmental power to enforce those laws.  Even in Israel, they have taken a more "reformed" approach.  There are some things they, as a nation have agreed make for good secular policy, as well as those things which are strictly religious.

It was modern Christian thinking that brought about the principle of the "separation of Church and State."  Muslim nations haven't done that.  Atheist nations haven't done that.  They always opress Christians and Jews.

Edited January 11 by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

4 hours ago, Phoenix_person said:

Would you characterize Iran's Islamic regime as far left or far right? And why?

This is the regime that outlaws dancing and music and women's cheekbones?  Morality police?  I profess to be big on constitutional conservatism, but it would seem that the constitutions springing from the American revolution and the Iranian revolution are worlds apart.  Big difference between government of representatives by/of/for the people, and government of clerics according to religious tenet.  

When I think about Christian nationalism, I think of it as "we gotta get enough Christians in power to legislate our brand of morality based on Christian interpretations of the Bible".   I must say I'm not a fan.  I'm too big a fan of the 1st Amendment.  My brand of right wing constitutional conservatism:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I'll put my efforts into converting everyone into my faith, but it's an invitation based on agency and choice, not a requirement or mandate.

[Phoenix_person]

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

I understand that you believe it to be right-wing because it is "religious."  But plenty of religious societies in history would never dream of becoming totalitarian.

Agreed, but that doesn't mean that some of them haven't done so throughout history, including the Puritans who colonized much of what is now the Eastern US. The fact that they were fleeing theocracy in England didn't stop them from creating their own on this side of the pond. For all the Christian talk of a "war on Christmas", only the Puritans *actually* tried to abolish it (because it was tainted by paganism, IIRC).

2 hours ago, Carborendum said:

You have to understand that "which religion" matters.

True. Ask older Muslim Americans how safe they felt in the US in the months following 9/11. Some of the answers may surprise you, but they probably shouldn't. Was that the fault of our government? No. For all the grief I give Bush, I do remember him speaking out against Islamaphobia from the start. I also remember plenty of rank-and-file Republicans (and yes, liberals too) disregarding him. I saw it daily in the military community in particular. Those folks still vote today just like I do. 

52 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Big difference between government of representatives by/of/for the people, and government of clerics according to religious tenet.  

This is exactly why leftists hate the Electoral College, it diminishes the democratic element of our government. Do you think democracy is being served when presidential elections are historically at the mercy of 5-6 states? I'd have more value to presidential candidates as a voter if I lived 50 miles further East than I curretly do, yet I still have more of a voice than I did in Texas or Maryland. 

To be clear, I don't support abolishing the EC. I just think more states (most of them, ideally) should move away from the all-or-nothing approach and be able to split delegates like Maine and Nebraska do.

21 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

When I think about Christian nationalism, I think of it as "we gotta get enough Christians in power to legislate our brand of morality based on Christian interpretations of the Bible".   I must say I'm not a fan.  I'm too big a fan of the 1st Amendment. 

That's commendable, and I think Christian nationalism is closer to power than you realize.

21 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

 My brand of right wing constitutional conservatism:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I'll put my efforts into converting everyone into my faith, but it's an invitation based on agency and choice, not a requirement or mandate.

I fear a day may come in my lifetime when this is a minority view in the GOP, but I hope I'm wrong. I realize that it's sometimes hard to see the fascists in one's own ranks, which is why I value our discussions here. I genuinely appreciate the insights on how my side is viewed by yours, even if I sometimes have a hard time seeing the same things. It can be very hard to see the rot in your own midst. Democrats recently got a rude awakening to that, and I think the meter is running on the GOP.

Unless some laws are changed to allow Elon to run for president, I still have a very hard time seeing how the GOP doesn't entirely implode once Trump is gone. From where I sit, he and his pet billionaire are very clearly the glue that's holding your party together, and he'll turn 80 in a year and a half. And frankly, he doesn't scare me nearly as much as some of the America First Republicans who have ridden his coattails to power. They likely won't just crawl back into the shadows once he's gone, and they're the ones most likely to push Christian Nationalism in our government. Those are the people whose "free speech" was the most threatened on Twitter pre-Elon. The fact that the most powerful oligarch in our country likes to pander to the alt-right has me seeing red flags in my sleep, just as I'm sure it would have for both of us if Mark Zuckerberg had been given a cabinet post in Biden's admin. We haven't been nearly as careful as we should be in letting titans of the digital age shape our nation's political discourse. I think things are going to get a lot stupider before calmer voices prevail, and I'm losing hope that that will ever happen. So yes, I'm worried about Christian Nationalism bringing fascism to America, because the people with the greatest ability to stop it (and I'm talking about people like you, to be clear) won't see it until it's too late. I obviously don't believe there's any truth to the prophesy that the LDS bretheren will save the US Constitution. But if the Constitution ever needs saving, I wouldn't rule out the GOP being the party it needs to be saved from.

[LDSGator]

8 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

That's commendable, and I think Christian nationalism is closer to power than you realize.

How? Christianity and church attendance are declining all over the country, especially post Covid   

[Phoenix_person]

37 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

How? Christianity and church attendance are declining all over the country, especially post Covid   

Do you really think Matt Gaetz goes to church every Sunday? Does Trump, for that matter? Christian Nationalism is the springboard of ideas for people like the Proud Boys and Oathkeepers, and I guarantee a lot of those guys aren't religious. Heck, my mega-MAGA (and very racist) grandfather is a lifelong atheist. You don't need to hold Christian Nationalist's religious views to be poisoned by them, and a lot of ex-Christians were bigots before AND AFTER they deconverted.

Remember, skinheads and Nazis. Nationalism has a way of bringing together groups of hooligans that may not otherwise cross paths.

Edited January 11 by Phoenix_person

[LDSGator]

32 minutes ago, Phoenix_person said:

Do you really think Matt Gaetz goes to church every Sunday? Does Trump, for that matter? Christian Nationalism is the springboard of ideas for people like the Proud Boys and Oathkeepers, and I guarantee a lot of those guys aren't religious. Heck, my mega-MAGA (and very racist) grandfather is a lifelong atheist. You don't need to hold Christian Nationalist's religious views to be poisoned by them, and a lot of ex-Christians were bigots before AND AFTER they deconverted.

Remember, skinheads and Nazis. Nationalism has a way of bringing together groups of hooligans that may not otherwise cross paths.

You worry about the wrong things my friend. Oathkeepers and Proud Boys are so small in numbers that it’s like worrying about being attacked by a shark at the beach. 

It’s usually conservatives who live in the past, but this isn’t 1985 anymore. Christian nationalism is not a concern, I promise.   

Edited January 11 by LDSGator

[LDSGator]

Take abortion. Since the SC overturned Roe vs Wade, abortion bans have been shot down in thick blue states like….Ohio and Kansas. If Christian Nationalism was really a problem, that wouldn’t have happened. 

[Carborendum]

The latest CNN poll indicates that the top 3 Democrat politicians that the average Dem voter identifies with (shares core values) are AOC, Harris, Sanders.

So...

• A former bartender who trips over her own ignorance with every public utterance she makes.
• A woman who rose up the political ladder via the hard way until she obtained the role of VP due to her DEI creds, whose signature trait is word salads.
• A long-time politician who has not contributed in any meaningful way to the political discourse in over 30 years.

Hey, CNN got it right.  They do identify with these core values.

Edited March 18 by Carborendum