CV75 Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 38 minutes ago, Gecko45 said: I went to Mexico City on my mission. I love mexicans. They are great people. I think I got more radicalized on my mission because the Mexicans also hate the jews a lot. And I am not sure how I got so radicalized when, in theory, I should be way less radical. I have visited more than 35 countries and I lived in England for most of my youth. I guess after seeing how gutted Europe was I turned that anger to the fact that after ww2, europe wanted to be the opposite of the nazis and just let in millions of africans which quickly turned the continent into a dumpster fire. It is not because of race but rather culture. I do not believe cultures that are very different mix well. I think it would help to try to focus more on the “historian” than the “hobbyist” part of your self-description as “a hobbyist historian.” This will help diffuse some of the radicalization you’ve identified and its underlying causes, which have less to do exposure to extremist ideology and recruitment by radical groups than with personal vulnerabilities you may not be aware of. Examples of these might include a sense of alienation or marginalization, personal grievances or trauma and low self-esteem, which goes beyond a more disciplined approach to history and with which life in the Gospel can assist. zil2 1 Quote
Ironhold Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 24 minutes ago, Vort said: But for the record, allowing millions of African immigrants into Europe was not what has turned much of Europe into a dumpster fire. I met many African immigrants during my mission to Italy in '83-'84, and most of them were humble, sincere people just trying to figure out how to get by. It's more complex than this, of course, but simply laying the blame for Europe's many woes at the feet of African immigrants is wrong. Remember the whole "Great American Melting Pot" bit from School House Rock? What's happening in Europe is that the UK, Sweden, and several other countries are host to large immigrant communities who have *refused* to meld into the overall public body. Rather, these communities are setting up enclaves in which they're basically trying to reconstruct the countries they left behind while still having the resources and privileges of the European nation they're in. The vast majority of incidents people are getting upset about are happening in these enclaves, but it's causing broad anti-immigrant hysteria across the board, especially given how loathe the local governments are to actually do anything about these enclaves. ...Hence why groups like Germany's AFD are seeing a surge in votes and support, and why people are now calling for the heads of several governments to resign. The more horror stories that emerge about what is or isn't happening in these enclaves, the more frenzied the overall anti-immigrant sentiment will likely become, as even legal immigrants who have melted into society are now finding themselves feeling the heat. Yes, I said "hysteria". I'm emphasizing that to make sure everyone understands what I'm talking about. mirkwood 1 Quote
mirkwood Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 @Vort the African refugee populations now are very different from what you encountered on your mission. Quote
LDSGator Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 13 minutes ago, mirkwood said: @Vort the African refugee populations now are very different from what you encountered on your mission. I would assume most are pro life, pro traditional marriage, and want religion to play a much stronger role in society. So social conservatives should welcome “them” with outstretched arms. Quote
zil2 Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 31 minutes ago, Vort said: For a European to say that he has visited "more than 35 countries" is not too different from an American saying that he has visited "more than 35 states". It's a lot, but not unbelievable. Yes, one can do that without leaving Europe. During the three years I worked in Moscow, and on two business trips years later, I only managed 19, I think. Excuse me while I get a map and list them. A "(t)" after the name means I only transited through the country and didn't see more than a train station / airport / port / whatever was out the window. US (born here) Canada (pre and post Moscow; Montreal in January is colder than Moscow ever dreamed of being!) Russia (newly minted, missed the USSR by 3 months) UK (just London) Estonia (t) Finland (fabulous place - Helsinki has such an incredible variety of food from more ethnicities than you can count) Czech Republic (or Czechoslovakia - I'm not sure which... googled - both, actually - I went there twice; Prague is the best European city I've been to) Hungary Austria (2x) Germany (2 times) Belgium Spain Italy Sweden Turkey (Holy yums, Batman - the food is amazing here. The ruins are good, too. The Mediterranean was gorgeous.) Cyprus (t) Yemen (t; the airport security were most upset with my mini pocket knife, but apparently a diplomatic passport trumps upset airport security folk) Kenya (don't know if it's safe anymore, but I highly recommend a photo safari!; I believe we crossed the equator 4 times on this trip ) Tanzania (t; our driver informed us after we'd made a technically illegal shortcut through Tanzania to get from one part of Kenya to another, and asked us to please not tell anyone ) I think that's everywhere. Vort 1 Quote
Vort Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 (edited) 31 minutes ago, zil2 said: I only managed 19 Some of us have not managed double digits: US Canada Mexico Italy San Marino Vatican City France Oh, yes, and India. How can I forget India? I suppose I technically was also in the UAE, at the Dubai airport, when traveling to/from Hyderabad. I do believe that's the exhaustive list, though I should be adding Israel to the list in the relatively near future, possibly the Palestine State and/or Lebanon and/or Syria. US states are easier, and it's easier still to list the states to which I have not been: Maine New Hampshire Vermont Rhode Island New Jersey (except for the airport; I think it's possible I did drive through, but I don't remember) North Carolina South Carolina Georgia (except for the airport) Alabama Mississippi Louisiana Arkansas Michigan Wisconsin Possibly North Dakota; not sure about this one. I'd give somewhere close to 50% odds that I at least drove through at some point. Connecticut (though I'm pretty sure we drove through on our trip from central PA to Boston, so CT probably should not be on the list) I'm pretty sure we had to have driven through Minnesota, but I don't specifically recall it. Edited January 17 by Vort Quote
NeuroTypical Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 Yeah, and how many of you world travelers ended up in Idaho? Again, I've never heard such a story, and would like to hear more. mirkwood and zil2 2 Quote
Carborendum Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 2 hours ago, Vort said: For a European to say that he has visited "more than 35 countries" is not too different from an American saying that he has visited "more than 35 states". It's a lot, but not unbelievable. I didn't get the impression that NT was saying he disbelieved him. It is just something that is highly unusual. When I was a newbie on this forum, people had difficulty believing that I'd visited over 30 states. And I'm a lot older than he is. As I recall, some people called *&%$ on me. But they were wrong. So, I can certainly understand people having doubts about someone in their 20s doing something similar. This doesn't mean that I disbelieve him. It's just that it is highly unusual. Vort 1 Quote
Carborendum Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, Vort said: Some of us have not managed double digits: OK, I'll do a bit of bragging. States: Hawaii California Oregon Washington Arizona Nevada Wyoming New Mexico Colorado Texas Oklahoma Kansas Missouri (Not sure if I went to Idaho or not--I may have gone through a corner or something) Nebraska One of the Dakotas (it was a business trip and I forget which one) (I also believe I may have hit both Dakotas, but not sure) Louisiana Arkansas Mississippi Tennessee Kentucky Illinois Iowa Alabama Florida All 13 colonies (Family trip to tour all of them). Countries: South Korea US Mexico Canada Japan Taiwan Germany Dubai Saudi Arabia (in the airport only) Afghanistan Kuwait Qatar Egypt There was a country near Nigeria that I did an overnight stay. But I can't remember which one. It wasn't Nigeria. But it was nearby. Honduras Cayman Islands Jamaica Edited January 17 by Carborendum Vort 1 Quote
zil2 Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Vort said: Some of us have not managed double digits: Hopefully any European reading this won't be offended, but really, once you've seen one European city, you've seen them all, in a way. The same could be said of US cities. Sure, each city has its own uniqueness, but I've found that cities are cities. If you're going to travel, better to go to widely divergent places than a bunch of similar cities, I think. 1 hour ago, Vort said: I should be adding Israel to the list in the relatively near future, possibly the Palestine State and/or Lebanon and/or Syria. Please don't get yourself killed! 1 hour ago, Vort said: US states are easier... While I know I've been through many states, I really can't say I remember much about many of them. The ones I've spend enough time in to remember things: New York Nevada California Utah Wyoming Montana Arizona Oklahoma Texas Colorado Washington, D.C. area Technically, some Church sites in Illinois and Missouri, but it was long enough ago that I don't remember much Technically, I remember hours of driving past corn through half of Kansas, and past lots of nothing across New Mexico, but I'm not sure that should count. Travel does make for good education, though, even if only subconsciously. 55 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said: Yeah, and how many of you world travelers ended up in Idaho? Again, I've never heard such a story, and would like to hear more. I've driven through part of Idaho. Hopefully @Gecko45 returns to share some of his adventures... Vort 1 Quote
NeuroTypical Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 Honestly and transparently, I'm trying grapple with hearing that someone can be so well-traveled, and have completed a successful mission, and still end up stuck with the extreme perspectives I'm hearing. I have nothing in my experience of 50 years of people watching to compare. So I'm asking to know more about our puzzling new friend. The closest I have to compare was my dad. Came home from WWII to find women in the workplace, and stayed mad about it his entire life. He literally died mad about it, one day after yelling at a hospice nurse for not knowing her place. One of the last great "male chauvinist pigs" - he bore the title with pride and wondered why more people didn't see things the way he did. But he was not travelled, very much not LDS, never sought out different people or perspectives. From my perspective as his kid who knew him for 33 years, he was the dictionary definition of stubbornly set in his ways. From my experience, the only way such top-tier misogynist (or racist or anti-semite) can remain one, is only through closeminded stubbornness and a refusal to consider other perspectives. So here comes @Gecko45 saying he's a well traveled returned missionary LDS person, who grows more anti-Jewish with each new experience, not less. And I'm at a loss. So yeah, my interest in genuine. Please tell us more about your life. zil2 1 Quote
mirkwood Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 I'll play along. States Arizona California (lived) Colorado Connecticut Delaware (lived) Florida Georgia Idaho Illinois Indiana (lived) Kansas Kentucky Maryland (lived) Missouri Nevada New Jersey (lived) New York Oregon Pennsylvania (lived) Tennessee Texas Utah (lived) Virginia Washington Wyoming A couple of other states I have probably been in around Indiana, I just do not remember which ones as I was quite young. I have also spent large amounts of time in a couple of the states I have not lived in. Countries England France Germany Italy Switzerland Austria Belgium Jamaica Haiti Mexico Carborendum and zil2 2 Quote
NeuroTypical Posted January 17 Report Posted January 17 (edited) I've been to half a dozen states, and that's about it. In college I did take a 2 week tour of Europe, here are the highlights: Edited January 17 by NeuroTypical Vort and zil2 1 1 Quote
prisonchaplain Posted January 18 Report Posted January 18 I'm not LDS or Jewish, though I've worked with both. In the west, when the economy is bad, conspiracy theories about Jews become popular. In Asia, the same happens to Chinese Christians. Both groups, ironically like LDS, tend to have higher social and economic success. My wife is Korean, and there is a popular book in her country on how Jewish people educate their children. So many of the tropes against Jews in the west, and Chinese Christians in the east, come down to class envy. They succeed so something must be afoot--especially if I'm not succeeding. Hate is addictive. Trends and correlation do not make causation. I suspect that the reason Jewish people generally, and Chinese Christians generally do well in the world is because they follow sound, pro-social practices. Alas, it's easier to blame the successful than to look honestly at my own failures. zil2, NeuroTypical, LDSGator and 1 other 4 Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.