D&C 8:2-3

[zil2]

...says:

Quote

D&C 8:2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

3 Now, behold, this is the spirit of revelation; behold, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

The bit in bold has always struck me as strange.  The Lord is talking about the gift of the Holy Ghost, and Oliver's desire to translate, and how he goes about that with the help of the HG (mind, heart, faith...).  I might have expected a more obvious scriptural reference to receiving revelation - like how Peter knew Jesus was the Christ, or how Isaiah was able to prophesy about the last days, or John the Revelator...

Instead, we get that bit about going through the Red Sea by the spirit of revelation...  Is it just me that thinks this reference seems unexpected?

I can explain it away easily enough:  The HG revealed to Moses where to go, or to part the Red Sea, or how to part it...  Though scripture seems to indicate Moses talking directly to the Lord, I suppose Deuteronomists could have done some editing there, or it could be that the Spirit was a necessary part of the communication process...   And anything from God is revelation, so we can explain that.  But it still seems odd to me to say the spirit of revelation is the spirit by which Moses led them through the Red Sea.

Any thoughts?

 

(On a completely unrelated note, Exodus 14:15 is a favorite of mine:

Quote

And the Lord said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:

Translated - "Quit yer whinin' and get on with it!"  or "Why are you still here yammering at me? Keep movin'!"

In my imagination, I imagine the children of Israel approaching the sea, with the Egyptians on the other side, suddenly stopping in shock as they realize there's nowhere to go (exactly as described in the chapter), but the Lord expecting them to just keep moving forward with faith.  A lesson to us - when the Lord tells us to follow some path, don't stop just because there appear to be obstacles ahead - keep going and trust that the Lord will take care of those obstacles - or show you around them, or whatever - just don't stop yourself at the sight of difficulty in the distance.)

Edited February 5 by zil2

[Carborendum]

34 minutes ago, zil2 said:

The bit in bold has always struck me as strange. 

Instead, we get that bit about going through the Red Sea by the spirit of revelation...  Is it just me that thinks this reference seems unexpected?

It is.  But that's because we don't have any knowledge of how such a miracle was done.

34 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I can explain it away easily enough:  The HG revealed to Moses where to go, or to part the Red Sea, or how to part it... 

Could be.  But that wouldn't explain how the troops from Pharoah drowned when they were right behind them.

34 minutes ago, zil2 said:

...or it could be that the Spirit was a necessary part of the communication process... 

Yes, this last part.  What manner of man is this that even the winds and the sea obey Him?

Edited February 5 by Carborendum

[zil2]

1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

It is.  But that's because we don't have any knowledge of how such a miracle was done.

Could be.  But that wouldn't explain how the troops from Pharoah drowned when they were right behind them.

Yes, this last part.  What manner of man is this that even the winds and the sea obey Him?

I think I didn't do a good job of explaining my question.  I'm not asking for an explanation or exploration of the mechanics of parting the Red Sea or a controlled collapse so that only the part where the Egyptians were collapsed (Exodus 14).  If it had said that Moses was guided by the Spirit / Holy Ghost / Spirit of the Lord to lead the Israelites through the Red Sea, that would be expected.  (Though reference to the event still seems unusual, the spirit by which it was done wouldn't seem as unusual.)

The part that seems unusual to me is that the Lord appears to be connecting these two things:

1. Translating scripture from an ancient record written in a language one doesn't know and can't learn in the usual ways.

and

2. Moses leading the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

These two actions don't seem to fall in the same category.  The first clearly requires God to reveal the language in question - the spirit of revelation.  The second clearly requires the power of God over the elements to work miracles.  That doesn't really seem like the spirit of revelation - not directly, anyway.  As I said, one can fit it in by saying Moses had to receive revelation the whole way in order to do his part, but the two just don't seem to me to mesh well (unlike the other examples I gave, where someone was clearly receiving revelation not so different from what Oliver Cowdery is seeking).

I'm wondering if anyone else was "jarred" by positioning these two events together, if anyone has thoughts on why the Lord chose to connect these two actions, and if anyone has thoughts on "by the spirit of revelation" in relation to the Red Sea event (beyond the obvious bits I've already mentioned).

[Carborendum]

18 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I think I didn't do a good job of explaining my question. 

...

 

I'm wondering if anyone else was "jarred" by positioning these two events together, if anyone has thoughts on why the Lord chose to connect these two actions, and if anyone has thoughts on "by the spirit of revelation" in relation to the Red Sea event (beyond the obvious bits I've already mentioned).

Yes, you stated it perfectly.  And I did answer it, albeit in a cryptic manner (for a reason).

Yes, I was jarred by it a long time ago (if I'm interpreting your feelings correctly).  And I had the same question.  But I came to understand something about revelation as it pertains to the working of miracles.  And that is what I'm being cryptic about (for a reason).

[CV75]

44 minutes ago, zil2 said:

I think I didn't do a good job of explaining my question.  I'm not asking for an explanation or exploration of the mechanics of parting the Red Sea or a controlled collapse so that only the part where the Egyptians were collapsed (Exodus 14).  If it had said that Moses was guided by the Spirit / Holy Ghost / Spirit of the Lord to lead the Israelites through the Red Sea, that would be expected.  (Though reference to the event still seems unusual, the spirit by which it was done wouldn't seem as unusual.)

The part that seems unusual to me is that the Lord appears to be connecting these two things:

1. Translating scripture from an ancient record written in a language one doesn't know and can't learn in the usual ways.

and

2. Moses leading the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground.

These two actions don't seem to fall in the same category.  The first clearly requires God to reveal the language in question - the spirit of revelation.  The second clearly requires the power of God over the elements to work miracles.  That doesn't really seem like the spirit of revelation - not directly, anyway.  As I said, one can fit it in by saying Moses had to receive revelation the whole way in order to do his part, but the two just don't seem to me to mesh well (unlike the other examples I gave, where someone was clearly receiving revelation not so different from what Oliver Cowdery is seeking).

I'm wondering if anyone else was "jarred" by positioning these two events together, if anyone has thoughts on why the Lord chose to connect these two actions, and if anyone has thoughts on "by the spirit of revelation" in relation to the Red Sea event (beyond the obvious bits I've already mentioned).

Thoughts on why the Lord chose to connect the two actions: they are gifts of the spirit/Spirit that involve revelation that come by the power of the Holy Ghost to His servants. He wanted to show that the same power operates today, that it is as accessible to Joseph and Oliver as it was to Moses, and that the work ahead for Joseph and Oliver is as significant as Moses'.

[JohnsonJones]

I watched a documentary a few years ago (may have been longer than that) about Moses.  In it, it discussed a point where the Red Sea's water level decreases in some areas during some parts of the year.  In it, they showed an individual actually walking across the Red Sea in that portion (note, there was still water, it looked about an ankle deep at it's deepest).  They hypothesized that Moses and the Children of Israel could have crossed the Red Sea at the precise time of the year.  As it's only temporary, and the area is quite large to walk across, if others tried to follow but were somewhat behind, they could be caught in the middle as the waters came back in.

I have no idea if that's what actually happened or not, but if Moses was guided by the Holy Ghost and revelation to cross due to a natural or other type of event rather than doing it as we see in "The Ten Commandments" on film, than I suppose that could be a possibility.

Edited February 5 by JohnsonJones

[laronius]

Elder Cullimore, assistant to the 12, once referenced those verses then said this:

"Too often we ask the Lord for the direction of his Spirit before we’ve done all we can. The Lord gave Oliver Cowdery the key here when he attempted to translate and failed. He said: “But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.”  D&C 9:8

After we have done all we can, having studied it out and determined how best to solve our problems, then we take our decisions to the Lord; and if they are right, our bosoms will burn within us and we will have spiritual confirmation as to what to do." April 72 GC

Edited February 5 by laronius

[laronius]

Verse 4 of Section 8 I think also sheds some light:

4 Therefore this is thy gift; apply unto it, and blessed art thou, for it shall deliver you out of the hands of your enemies, when, if it were not so, they would slay you and bring your soul to destruction.

If we do what is in our power and trust in the Lord, He will inspire us and open a way for our deliverance. In which case, Moses and the Israelites at the Red Sea are a perfect example.

[zil2]

41 minutes ago, laronius said:

Verse 4 of Section 8 I think also sheds some light:

4 Therefore this is thy gift; apply unto it, and blessed art thou, for it shall deliver you out of the hands of your enemies, when, if it were not so, they would slay you and bring your soul to destruction.

If we do what is in our power and trust in the Lord, He will inspire us and open a way for our deliverance. In which case, Moses and the Israelites at the Red Sea are a perfect example.

This is excellent.  I should have thought harder. 

Edited February 6 by zil2

[Just_A_Guy]

Elder Holland gave a talk at BYU 20-odd years ago (later printed in the Ensign in condensed form) that deals specifically with the interplay between this verse, revelation generally, and the experience(s) of Moses.  I believe it was entitled “Cast not away your confidence”, or something similar.

[zil2]

28 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

I believe it was entitled “Cast not away your confidence”, or something similar.

If that talk was 20 years ago, I'm way, way too old!

Cast Not Away Therefore Your Confidence

And thank you!  He does indeed ask the exact question I'm asking (and presumably answer it - I stopped there to come write my thanks.  Going back to read now.  PS: apparently I'm way, way too old.)

reading...

Elder Holland is hilarious!

Quote

Usually we think of revelation as information. Just open the books to us, Lord, like: What was the political significance of the Louisiana Purchase or the essence of the second law of thermodynamics? It is obvious that when you see those kinds of questions on a test paper, you need revelation. Someone said prayer will never be eliminated from the schools so long as there are final examinations. But aside from the fact that you probably aren’t going to get that kind of revelation—because in this Church we do not believe in ex nihilo creation, especially in exams—this is too narrow a concept of revelation. May I suggest how section 8 broadens our understanding of section 9, particularly in light of these “fights of affliction” that Paul spoke of and that I have been discussing.

If you (generic) want all of Elder Holland's answer to my question, you'll need to go read the article, it's multiple paragraphs long.  And since it's Elder Holland, it's worth the read.

You're the best, @Just_A_Guy!

Edited February 6 by zil2

[Traveler]

Some thoughts:

I was taking a religion class at BYU in my previous life.  The professor made an interesting statement (obviously tongue-in-cheek), that if he caught anyone praying during the exam, he would confiscate their exam, and they would fail the class.  He said that we were to rely on our own work and preparation for the exam.

Another thought: Scripture tells us that we learn line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.  We are also encouraged to gather together often.  I think one reason to gather is to share our spiritual precepts.  The problem is that so many seem to think of scripture as a singularity.  That each verse has one and only one intended meaning.

I am of the mind that there is much more to D&C 8:2-3 than the idea that revelation (including the spirit of revelation) is the essence of information and understanding.  For example, I have the impression that there is power and intelligence within the spirit of revelation.  The reason I use the terms power and intelligence is because the power to do things, like crossing the Red Sea on dry ground, has elements of both power and intelligence.  The same holds true of the creation and even other things that are given by revelation (translating scripture – understanding scripture in general.)  I do not believe that a scripture is understood by the spirit of revelation unless someone is motivated to repent and change.  One definition of repentance is to “see” things in a new light or perspective in such a manner that we are changed – not just in our thinking.

 

The Traveler

[Ironhold]

As I've noted before, I work for a family of small local-level newspapers. 

Because of how short-handed we are, I have to help with circulation in addition to my duties as a writer. 

What this means is that for about 90 - 120 minutes every Thursday night it's just me, the radio, and the road. 

If all goes well, then this is time for me to reflect, reconsider, and get my head in order. 

On a good week, I can make significant progress in some fashion, even if it's only another entry for my weekly op/ed column. 

I think this speaks to an issue many people have, that their schedules make it hard for them to carve out time to just *be* and allow themselves to think. 

[zil2]

18 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I was taking a religion class at BYU in my previous life.  The professor made an interesting statement (obviously tongue-in-cheek), that if he caught anyone praying during the exam, he would confiscate their exam, and they would fail the class.  He said that we were to rely on our own work and preparation for the exam.

Well, that's absurd.

19 minutes ago, Traveler said:

I am of the mind that there is much more to D&C 8:2-3 than the idea that revelation (including the spirit of revelation) is the essence of information and understanding.  For example, I have the impression that there is power and intelligence within the spirit of revelation.  The reason I use the terms power and intelligence is because the power to do things, like crossing the Red Sea on dry ground, has elements of both power and intelligence.  The same holds true of the creation and even other things that are given by revelation (translating scripture – understanding scripture in general.)  I do not believe that a scripture is understood by the spirit of revelation unless someone is motivated to repent and change.  One definition of repentance is to “see” things in a new light or perspective in such a manner that we are changed – not just in our thinking.

Thank you!  This fits in nicely with what Elder Holland said, and is what I was hoping to find - insight that makes the comparison between the two activities seem less jarring to me.  Even an activity such as translating or studying scripture, done well, involves physical action in addition to the use of intelligence.

 

Now, if only the spirit of revelation would help me translate what Klaw is yeowling about...

[zil2]

14 minutes ago, Ironhold said:

just *be* and allow themselves to think

This is a highly undervalued activity!

[Vort]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

Another thought: Scripture tells us that we learn line upon line upon line and precept upon precept upon precept.

Here's a fascinating discussion of Isaiah and that scriptural teaching.

https://rsc.byu.edu/prophets-prophecies-old-testament/precept-upon-precept-line-upon-line

[Traveler]

22 hours ago, zil2 said:

........

Now, if only the spirit of revelation would help me translate what Klaw is yeowling about...

Perhaps it is possible that Klaw is yeowling about things of little or no spiritual significance – beyond the consideration that all things should be loved and appreciated in their proper order.  First to love G-d, second to love your human neighbors (hard for me to love humans that I do not like very much), and then once you have accomplished such, that we love all good things that G-d has created.  😁

 

The Traveler