Trump (Or any Subject) Derangement Syndrome

[JohnsonJones]

21 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

One hallmark of leftist thought, is that personal responsibility and action takes second place to governmental action and authority.   In other words, they want T gone, but they want someone else to do it for them.  In still other words, leftist action is mostly taken from the anonymous mob on the street, where individuals willingly hand over themselves to mob mentality.  Someone has to break out of that mold in order to climb onto a roof or inscribe a motto on a shell casing they then actually use themselves.

If I were to ignore the messages in this weekend's general conference about showing love and rejecting contention and division, I'd say they're mostly a bunch of cowards, too lacking in gumption to do anything besides gripe and find someone willing to act so they can support that person.    But I'm trying to be better than that.

I don't think I agree with that.

If you look at the teachings of Jesus, in today's society, he would be a leftist.  I know many supposed religious individuals do not agree with that, but when we look at the things he said and what his church's actions were...

He was for sharing equally of all things.  No rich or poor among them.  Peter was used by the Lord to slay a family that held back some of their belongings, just to stress how strongly an item this was.

He wasn't for hating your enemies or killing them.  He said to turn the other cheek and to walk the extra mile.

He provided free healing to those who were of his people (and even sometimes, those who were not). 

These are some very liberal ideas, even today.  I find MANY religious individuals find these items too liberal for them, where as a LOT of more liberal minded individuals note that the Lord said by their fruits ye shall know them.  I know that some of the young people who have been my students have taken up the argument that if Christians do not even follow their supposed Lord, then why should they.  They've read the Bible, and they understand many of it's teachings enough to see that what is being argued for today by many is not taught in the bible by Jesus, but are morals taught and practiced by men instead.

When we try to other people in this manner, I think it actually is very unchristlike.  We are attempting to make them the other and thus lesser to us.  This would apply to conservatives and liberals alike, but as for this conversation, it would apply more towards those who are conservative (as I find very few liberals here, much less independents like I am [though technically you could say I'm a moderate conservative in real life, not that one would see it in comparison to this forum where I seem almost like a far left liberal in relation to the views here...which just shows how far to the hard right this forum is currently...where a moderate conservative is considered that far left...is pretty wild if one thinks about it).

It's not that the Liberal mind wants someone else to take responsibility, but that they see it as a responsibility that society itself will not do on it's own. 

The reason for many social programs is because the Religious arms and the more Conservative arms who claimed they were doing charity...were either not enough, or actually did NOT do charity.  Hence, other programs to take care of the poor and elderly were utlized.

Interestingly enough, in the US, when they first were instituting the Welfare programs, Roosevelt consulted with the Church (our church) authorities on their program (programs that were far more extensive in the type of help they gave their members and how long they gave that help, especially during the great depression era).  Welfare was originally based off the church's program (before the 60s came around and did away with the work requirements that they included, even if it meant having the individual dig ditches in front of the office and then fill them in again). 

Of course, during that time period, the members of the Church were overwhelmingly Democrat and also liberals.  Joseph Smith was considered a liberal (and far more liberal than even the liberals of the time tolerated).  Brigham Young was considered Liberal (and, he too, with the polygamy stances, was also far more liberal than what was considered acceptable at the time.  Throw in how they practiced consecration and his ideas of consecration and it was FAR too liberal for people back then, and probably FAR too liberal for almost every conservative member today if they understood what he did, how he did it, and how strict he was on imposing it).

Many of the church Presidents up through the 60s were also Democrats and liberals, though you also started to have more Conservative General Authorities enter the field as we get closer to our time.  Even today, though a majority (in my opinion) of the General Authorities are Republicans or Conservative, you still have a few Liberals among them.

Do you consider them in that same light?

 

PS:  Today, the church does not say one side or the other is wrong, nor that the Saints are evil if they are conservative or Liberal.  In fact, the Church takes a neutral stance and holds that we should pray to be inspired by the Lord to choose righteous leaders.

[JohnsonJones]

17 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The libs are still doing the cancelling thing for anything with the "stink" of Trump on him.

John Stamos Defends Emceeing Event at Mar-A-Lago: ‘Isn’t Political’

John Stamos Defends Mar-A-Lago Appearance | HuffPost Entertainment

It was a charity event for nurses.  You know, the people who help doctors with patients in hospitals.  But because the charity event was held at Mar-a-lago, they want to cancel Stamos (a lifelong Democrat).

This is probably one big problem that Democrats have currently, and a problem they had during the election.  Rather than support each other, there are a few of them (but a few that make a loud stink, as they have a very loud voice...as words via social media would go) that only seek to tear others down and divide themselves by saying someone isn't far left enough, or isn't supporting their policies enough.

You kick enough of your own people out and you are left with less people then you had before.

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

If you look at the teachings of Jesus, in today's society, he would be a leftist.

I must have missed the chapters where Jesus sought to redefine gender, institutionalize radical theories of pronoun use, seek to destroy government institutions he considered systematically racist, and rejoice in cancel culture and the criminalization of raising your own children.   I heard "render unto caesar" and thought I understood things pretty well.

Or maybe you need to think a bit more on the definition of "leftist" and how it differs, sometimes violently, from "liberal" or "progressive".

[The Folk Prophet]

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

He was for sharing equally of all things.

Not through governmental force.

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

He said to turn the other cheek and to walk the extra mile.

Not through governmental force.

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

He wasn't for hating your enemies or killing them. 

He wasn't for hating your enemies. But claiming that the same Jesus who was the Jehovah of the OT wasn't for ever killing enemies is woefully short-sighted.

But moreover, once again...individually. The idea that government's shouldn't be killing enemies in certain circumstances. Well...we've got an entire Book of scripture compiled by Mormon that explicitly teaches otherwise through plain text AND the examples of almost every prophet therein -- Including Mormon himself.

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

He provided free healing to those who were of his people (and even sometimes, those who were not).

But not through governmental force.

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

These are some very liberal ideas, even today.

Only if it's through governmental force.

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I find MANY religious individuals find these items too liberal for them,

Yeah...if it's through governmental force.

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

but that they see it as a responsibility that society itself will not do on it's own. 

Yeah. It's called freedom.

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Joseph Smith was considered a liberal (and far more liberal than even the liberals of the time tolerated).

So were the Nation's founding fathers.

Liberal is not a concrete viewpoint. It's a relative one.

Definitionally, actually, Trump is EXTREMELY liberal and progressive. Moreso, maybe, than any president I think we've ever had. He's not a capital L Liberal or a Leftist or capital P Progressive. But what he's doing is hardly "conserving" things. He's making significant change, not trying to conserve the status quo.

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Throw in how they practiced consecration and his ideas of consecration and it was FAR too liberal for people back then, and probably FAR too liberal for almost every conservative member today if they understood what he did, how he did it, and how strict he was on imposing it).

It's like you're arguing that because some Latter-day Saints are against taxes that they're also against tithing. It's not persuasive as an idea.

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

though you also started to have more Conservative General Authorities enter the field as we get closer to our time. 

Do you believe the conservative General Authorities are/were not following Jesus? Seems like that's the argument you're trying to make.

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Do you consider them in that same light?

You have a chip on your shoulders about this.

No one thinks you or any "liberal" is evil for believing in welfare. We simply disagree with it as a governmental policy approach in the same way you see it. Even then, I don't think anyone here would argue doing away with ALL governmental welfare.

The reason we think "liberals" a.k.a. leftists are "evil" is because of things like the support and drive to push for abortion, homosex, trans stuff, removal of freedoms, anti religion, anti God, and the like. You know...evil stuff.

Show me a General Authority who's pro evil stuff.

Edited April 9 by The Folk Prophet

[Carborendum]

57 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Not through governmental force.

Not through governmental force.

But not through governmental force.

Only if it's through governmental force.

Yeah...if it's through governmental force.

No one thinks you or any "liberal" is evil for believing in welfare. We simply disagree with it as a governmental policy approach in the same way you see it. Even then, I don't think anyone here would argue doing away with ALL governmental welfare.

The thing that liberals don't understand is that we as private citizens are actually able to help people without government authority or coordination or permission.

The liberal mindset is "If the government doesn't fix something, it will never get fixed."

The conservative mindset is "If the solution to a societal problem includes handing it over to government, it gets worse."

Until they recognize this reality, they will ALWAYS believe that whatever a bleeding heart wants to do should be backed up with governmental force.

[The Folk Prophet]

26 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

The thing that liberals don't understand is that we as private citizens are actually able to help people without government authority or coordination or permission.

The liberal mindset is "If the government doesn't fix something, it will never get fixed."

The conservative mindset is "If the solution to a societal problem includes handing it over to government, it gets worse."

Until they recognize this reality, they will ALWAYS believe that whatever a bleeding heart wants to do should be backed up with governmental force.

Actually it's worse than that. Liberals believe that we, as conservative private citizens, don't WANT to help people.

It's particularly offensive when those like @JohnsonJones state such about conservative Latter-day Saints.

And he doesn't ever seem to get the irony of complaining about how conservative Latter-day Saints think he's evil as he explains how evil conservative Latter-day Saints are.

[LDSGator]

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Actually it's worse than that. Liberals believe that we, as conservative private citizens, don't WANT to help people.

Correct. Most liberals also believe that as long as you think leftward, that’s all you need to be a “good person”, so they don’t bother helping people. 

 

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

It's particularly offensive when those like @JohnsonJones state such about conservative Latter-day Saints.

More ridiculous than offensive. He’s so off base with this that it should be more funny than insulting or offensive. 

1 hour ago, The Folk Prophet said:

And he doesn't ever seem to get the irony of complaining about how conservative Latter-day Saints think he's evil as he explains how evil conservative Latter-day Saints are.

Liberals don’t understand irony if the joke is on them, but to be fair, neither do conservatives, atheists, believers, agnostics….

[JohnsonJones]

22 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

I must have missed the chapters where Jesus sought to redefine gender, institutionalize radical theories of pronoun use, seek to destroy government institutions he considered systematically racist, and rejoice in cancel culture and the criminalization of raising your own children.   I heard "render unto caesar" and thought I understood things pretty well.

Or maybe you need to think a bit more on the definition of "leftist" and how it differs, sometimes violently, from "liberal" or "progressive".

You seem to mistake what a liberal is.  A liberal is not necessarily a Far left communist (though, there are some that would probably accuse Joseph Smith and...definately Brigham Young...of being just that).

Liberal policies did not even detail many of the things you just mentioned above until the recent 20 years, and in some cases, the past 5 years...and that's mostly among the more far radical left...not most of what would be encompassed in the term liberal.

One of the key point things Liberals HAVE fought for has been against Discrimination.  One of the major items was against Slavery originally, and then discrimination against those of other races.  The Republicans basically abandoned this fight in the mid to late 80s, which was unfortunate (especially if you consider their origins), but it won them a lot of the South which had traditionally been Democrat previously. 

Liberals are normally just those who are seeking to have a change in something, where as conservative is more for keeping the status quo.  Very simple and basic ideas.  The changes don't have to be massive or crazy things like you suggest, they sometimes are as simple as wanting to have a 40 hour workweek instead of being forced to work 120 hours (as some crazy DOGE individual recently suggested as an ideal).  They sometimes are as simple as saying we should have the ability to practice our religion as Latter-day Saints.

In regards to what you are stating though...

Jesus never said that you should condemn others for redefining Gender (or, in the Roman's case, that you should fight against the Romans because they had certain actions they did, where they actually did have effeminate men, Gay Partners, etc), but that one should love their enemies, love those that hate them, go the extra mile, and turn the other cheek.  Very hard things to do, especially when those who were in favor of all sorts of immoral activity were actively trying to destroy you and your religion in the later half of the century after our Lord's death and ressurection.

In regards to children, he said suffer the little children to come to me.  He also mentioned that who ever hurt one of them, it would be better to have a millstone around their neck. 

One of the reasons Jesus was probably sought out to be killed was that he was spreading radical ideas.  These ideas, if we look at the new testament, were not about overthrowing the government, but a new way of living.  It was one where one gave all that they had and than that was redistributed to the poor (as we can see from the story of the Rich man, and later how it was literally practiced under Peter).  Even today, this is a radically liberal stance.  No one (even in our more socialistic neighbors in  Europe) want to give Everything they have and then just receive a portion of it back...of which they don't even own, but are merely stewards. 

You try pushing this among the US citizens, I think you'll not only be branded a massively far left liberal, but be hated by even those you consider far left liberals. 

16 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Not through governmental force.

Not through governmental force.

 

The government didn't like his teachings, of course it wasn't through the current government.  But it was through force.  It was far worse than just going to jail.  We know the story of Peter and this.  You defy this after you pledged to follow it...it would be an execution if you didn't.  That's pretty forceful.

Brigham Young also enforced these measures pretty strictly, and he was a force of government for a while.  He probably enforced it with measures that most here would find pretty intrusive today, far more forceful than what you see government today enforce many of it's lesser laws.

16 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Do you believe the conservative General Authorities are/were not following Jesus? Seems like that's the argument you're trying to make.

Actually, it's the exact opposite.  If you read my post you would see my ps on it where I state that this can apply to both sides.  The Church itself is neutral politcally.  When we are attempting to label people of a different party as the other, we are trying to make it seem as if we are superior or otherwise.  I was pointing out that if one is going to automatically try to say Liberals are sinners, or wicked, or other things, what are they saying about General Authorities and leaders of the church that are liberal (and if you read my ps, you would see the same would apply in the opposite direction).

 

15 hours ago, Carborendum said:

The thing that liberals don't understand is that we as private citizens are actually able to help people without government authority or coordination or permission.

The liberal mindset is "If the government doesn't fix something, it will never get fixed."

The conservative mindset is "If the solution to a societal problem includes handing it over to government, it gets worse."

Until they recognize this reality, they will ALWAYS believe that whatever a bleeding heart wants to do should be backed up with governmental force.

That is not the Liberal mindset.  If anything, it is we should look to science to see what works and what doesn't, as well as studies. 

I find that there are many out there that do not want to listen to the evidence no matter how strong it shows something, instead of trying to see what science and studies actually say about something.

A stark difference some Liberals want to try to point out these days is that many Conservatives want people to be ignorant of facts and science so that they can push superstition and false narratives on the public. 

Whereas I won't go that far (and remember, despite the funny way this forum works, where only those who are the "right" type of conservatives are considered conservative...which makes me, and independant who leans conservative, or what some may consider a moderate conservative...the absolute far left in this forum...which really makes this place a farce in relation to actual politics...because if a moderate conservative is your far left...)

A prime example is Roosevelt.  He had a problem and it was going to take studies a while to figure some of the solutions out.  However, he saw that there was a society existing in the US that was not having the same problems that the rest of the US was having during the Great Depression.  He went to these people (which, just so happened to be our Church in the Utah area) and wanted to find out what they were doing.  They had the experience in this field in how these things worked already.  From this was born the Welfare system in the United States. 

I am actually really proud to be a member of the church (which is also a failing as pride is not something to be happy about) and it's contributions to the US! 

If you don't like many of the social ideas from the 40s, you only have to blame the church (which some did at the time, the church was an enemy to the conservative movement of the time in some people's minds, it wasn't until the late 60s that this started to change).

Up until the past 50 years, the church itself was solidly Democrat and was very liberal in it's approaches to the world and the US.  If you look at many of the church policies in relation to traditional Conservative ideas, it still is very liberal.

The biggest change that has occurred where a lot of the Liberal ideas of the present diverged from the Church was where the Liberal parties of the West started to push ideas that were morally incompatible with the teachings of the Lord (things which have been suggested in this thread such as allowance of open Homosexuality, etc). 

Ironically though, the ideas that we should help the poor, take care of the sick and afflicted, and visit those in prison are distinctly LIBERAL ideas still.

The alternative, the Conservative side, if you look at it, blames the poor for their own situation  (so why help them, it's their own fault).  I wouldn't say they want personal responsibility, as much as to shirk responsibility and blame others for their situation.  We know from history and research that the Conservative society in the US over the past 50 years has said that they could take care of the poor, but when seeing if they actually give enough to do that, shows that they are no where close to actually being able to back up that claim, much less be willing to do that. 

It's that realization which is why we probably still have programs like Social Security and Welfare today.

[JohnsonJones]

17 hours ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Definitionally, actually, Trump is EXTREMELY liberal and progressive. Moreso, maybe, than any president I think we've ever had. He's not a capital L Liberal or a Leftist or capital P Progressive. But what he's doing is hardly "conserving" things. He's making significant change, not trying to conserve the status quo.

This is something, on it's own that I might not actually disagree with...at all.  My actual views on what the Republican party is today, and what the Democrat party is today may actually surprise people here. 

However, I find as long as I am the sole individual everyone is pointing fingers at as being the "Liberal" sinner who has no clue what Conservatives are (which, once again, kind of makes this entire forums politics a farce) because I refuse to bow the knee on hating those dirty enemies who are liberals (which is the basic idea I get from reading a lot of these threads here), I don't get a ton of opportunity to express what my actual political views are.

I find I spend far more time defending those who may actually be my enemies politically due to how aggressively hated they are here, than I do actually discussing my own politics.  I find the absolute dishonest statements towards what Liberals and Leftest think these days as something that should be defended against.  If we do not understand what they think and how they think than our own arguments against what they actually are trying to do and represent will be less effective.  The best way to understand how to fight an enemy, is to understand how that enemy thinks.

But we are so busy pointing fingers and labeling, that instead of actually being able to convince others, we just are makng ourselves feel better.

If you guys can't convince Me (and as I said, if we really talk politics, I'm actually a moderate conservative, though I am independent as I am not a member of either party), then you definately are not going to convince those who are left of me.  I should be easy change to convince...and I can tell you, that you guys are not making much headway.

Sure, you can feel good about your own niche group, but if you want to convince others, you probably should go about it a different way. 

My goal isn't to actually convince either here, but merely defend and at least represent a different mode of thinking than the wierd group think that seems to have taken over this forum.

It would probably be far easier to discuss my own political thoughts. 

However, going back to the idea above, I agree, Trump is pretty radical and at times excessively liberal.  For the old time Republicans, it's a little weird to see some of the things he's pushed and how those who claim to also believe in Conservative values being fully in support of those items.  Some ideas (such as smaller government) are things where (though in a really chaotic and unorganized way, he's the first to at least attempt this idea for years) it reflects a more traditional Conservative outlook, while others (his weird support of our Enemies in Russia, his tearing down of alliances and weakening the alliance of Nato ...Ezra Taft Benson would be turning in his grave if turning in one's grave were a thing) are absolutely anti-Conservative values. 

It's a weird mix he has there.

Edited Thursday at 03:02 PM by JohnsonJones

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

(which is the basic idea I get from reading a lot of these threads here)

There's that chip on your shoulder showing again.

[The Folk Prophet]

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

I find I spend far more time defending those who may actually be my enemies politically due to how aggressively hated they are here, than I do actually discussing my own politics.  I find the absolute dishonest statements towards what Liberals and Leftest think these days as something that should be defended against.  If we do not understand what they think and how they think than our own arguments against what they actually are trying to do and represent will be less effective.  The best way to understand how to fight an enemy, is to understand how that enemy thinks.

JohnsonJones: Conservatives make absolutely dishonest statements about liberals and don't understand what and how they think.

also:

JohnsonJones: Conservative Latter-day Saints on this forum hate liberals, hate me, are more interested in worshipping Trump than Jesus, and don't care about the poor and needy.

😕

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

I should be easy change to convince...

This is a pretty flawed point to try and make. I don't believe it's true -- because the claims your are making against conservatives here are mostly strawmen.

How can we convince you of anything when your problems are built of facades?

Obviously some of the things conservatives in this forum say are inconsiderate, rude, unkind, and flawed. Just like the things you often post are inconsiderate, rude, unkind, and flawed. Because we're all flawed mortals who say inconsiderate, rude, unkind, and flawed things, no matter our political views.

But somehow that's translated to you that conservatives here worship Trump and despise anyone they don't agree with politically.

But if we point out that your commentary can easily be views as despising those you don't agree with politically, you respond with something like, "I don't despise anyone here." Which you expect us to just accept. Fair enough. ...but then refuse to accept the same of us. Not fair.

Yeah...easy to convince... I don't think so.

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

Sure, you can feel good about your own niche group,

Putting aside that "conservative Latter-day Saints" isn't exactly a "niche"...depending on how one defines "niche"...but putting that aside...

You're kind of stereo-typing everyone. Are you really under the impression we all engage in this forum for the same reason?

I, myself, started engaging because the prophets asked us to. It was an effort at obedience. I had no interest in feeling good about myself (other than feeling like I was following the prophets' and apostles' counsel and being obedient). I'm flawed, so I can't claim I've never felt self-satisfaction at piling on to someone with whom I disagreed...but I also learned from that, have made significant changes to the way I communicate, and participate far less than I used to because I'm so bad at that. I still do it sometimes. I try to fix it when I do. Because I'm interested in following the prophets, following Christ, being obedient, showing love for my fellow man, and avoiding contention.

And yet, apparently, you've taken it upon yourself to tell me I'm not worshipping Jesus and hate my fellow man because I'm conservative politically.

Thanks?

 

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

but merely defend and at least represent a different mode of thinking than the wierd group think that seems to have taken over this forum.

And you think calling us weird, Trump worshippers, false followers of Jesus, and accusing us of hating others is the best form of defense?

1 hour ago, JohnsonJones said:

who claim to also believe in Conservative values being fully in support of those items

I can't speak for anyone else here...so I'll only respond for myself.

You call me a "Conservative". I'm not. I'm not a Republican (though I tend to vote that way), I'm not a Conservative (though my political ideals tend to line up that way).

I'm a a disciple of Jesus Christ.

The things Trump does that I am supportive of, or the things that are part of the "Conservative" or "Republican" parties that I support, I support because they align with my understanding of Christ's gospel and the government ideals that I believe were given by God to the founding fathers and are taught in the Book of Mormon and by many of our prophets and apostles through the years.

The things Trump or Conservatives do that I am not supportive of, I do not support because it does not align with those things, per my best understanding.

I am a Christ-first thinker, contrary to your accusations. And I find it particularly and EXTREMELY offensive to be told I'm not following or worshipping Christ because I agree with and like a lot of what Trump is doing.

And I would dare guess my approach to politics (while not completely or exactly the same), and the resultant offense I take from your accusations, is probably broadly representative of most conservatives on this forum.

I don't care if you are for socialism, higher taxes, bigger government, or anything of the sort. You may be. You may not be. You may be just playing devils advocate for things. That's your business. I may disagree with you on what you actually think or not. And that's okay.

But please stop telling me (even by implication) I'm worshipping Trump instead of Christ. Stop saying that true followers of Christ would be Democrats because their ideals align with Christ's better. It's not true. But moreover -- it's incredibly rude.

[NeuroTypical]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

On 4/9/2025 at 9:36 AM, NeuroTypical said:

Or maybe you need to think a bit more on the definition of "leftist" and how it differs, sometimes violently, from "liberal" or "progressive".

You seem to mistake what a liberal is.  A liberal is not necessarily a Far left communist

It looks like we're having a bit of a language issue.  Here's my take on what reality looks like:

On the scale of left-of-center political thought, you have the following, listed from least extreme to most extreme:

Center-left folks
Democrats
Liberals (not the classical liberal, but the self-proclaimed liberals of the last 30 years)
Progressives
Leftists
Fascists

There can be a lot of overlap with the first 4, as you can find both liberals and progressives in the Democrat party.  Socialist thought is sprinkled throughout, growing in importance and extreme as you go down the list. None of them want to think about how Fascist is the most extreme form of leftist thought, the natural extension of socialism/communism/marxism, but it is. 

Leftists might claim to be anarchists or ANTIFA, the 'occupy democrats' tend to be leftist.  They tend to be more radical, more extreme, more prone to organizing.   I've had several leftists (including Mr. PhoenixPerson who occasionally stops by this board) state quite openly that they are NOT the same as dems/libs/progressives.  Leftists, for example, often loathe Hilary Clinton and think AOC is a misguided twit.

So, when you say: 

On 4/9/2025 at 9:36 AM, NeuroTypical said:

If you look at the teachings of Jesus, in today's society, he would be a leftist.

I have to disagree strongly.   We can argue about whether He'd support the tax-and-spend policies of Democrats or liberals.  We can argue about whether He'd support progressive causes like open borders or using government power to make healthcare and education free.  But no, there's really no serious argument to be made that he would be a leftist. 

Anyway, that's the color of the sky in my world.  Your sky color may differ.

Edited Thursday at 05:35 PM by NeuroTypical

[The Folk Prophet]

6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

But it was through force.  It was far worse than just going to jail.  We know the story of Peter and this.  You defy this after you pledged to follow it...it would be an execution if you didn't.  That's pretty forceful.

I'd make some level of effort here to try and explain the difference between making covenants and keeping them vs. supporting governmental authoritarism... but I'm sort of under the impression that you can't or won't follow. But...

I believe I have covenanted to mourn with those who mourn, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and so forth and that I will stand accountable for that someday if I do not.

I do NOT believe I have the right to force others to mourn with those who mourn, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, and so forth. Do you believe you have the right to force me to do such?

In point of fact, forcing others to be obedient is one interpretation of what Satan's plan was. (Though, personally, I don't think Satan's plan was simply "force". In fact, I think that's a naive view of what Satan's plan probably ways...but I digress...)

Making moral choices and standing accountable for what choices you make is at the core of the gospel.

Supporting government to force morality does not align with any gospel principles I know of.

Can you understand the difference?

6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Brigham Young also enforced these measures pretty strictly, 

By what consequences? If you didn't give to the United Order, what was the consequence?

(We could get into the difference on local vs Federal government responsibilities, and how "Conservatives" view that...but I don't suspect it would resonate with you.)

6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

and he was a force of government for a while. 

So you believe that Brigham Young used the force of government to take money from people without their consent, in the same way taxes work, or they would go to jail?

Because if your idea of Brigham Young's "enforcement" of "social welfare" is other than that then you're comparing apples and oranges and calling them both citrus.

Moreover, you've got some other flawed logical fallacies in the comparison. Would you have us believe the Brigham Young's local governance was perfect and a perfect example of exactly how things should be done at the Federal level in our day and age?

Do we have to take every single governing choice Brigham Young made as gospel truth? Do you? Or are you just using what Brigham Young did as a "gotcha" arguing point?

6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

He probably enforced it with measures that most here would find pretty intrusive today, 

Your cynicism of Latter-day Saint conservatives is consistent. I'll give you that.

6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I state that this can apply to both sides

But you're not applying it to both sides. You're defending leftists and lambasting conservatives.

6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

When we are attempting to label people of a different party as the other, we are trying to make it seem as if we are superior or otherwise. 

I'm somewhat shocked at the hypocrisy in this comment.

6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

(and if you read my ps, you would see the same would apply in the opposite direction).

And yet you're blind to the fact that that's exactly what you've been doing?

I don't have a problem with arguing Conservatism is evil or arguing Liberalism is evil or implying those who follow one or the other are blind to this or that or etc.

I do have a problem when someone calls other people wicked for calling other people wicked.

I don't, honestly, even care if you think I'm wicked. I do have a problem when the reasons you're saying I'm wicked are strawmen. And I especially have a problem with that when you're concurrently accusing me of strawman reasoning for thinking others are wicked.

It's like you're yelling at us to stop yelling. Cussing at us to, "Watch your blankity-blank mouths!" Or punching us to teach us not to punch. And to add insult to injury, many of us aren't yelling, cussing, or punching.

It's like when I tell my son a bit strictly, but calmy, "You need to put that down like mommy asked." And he starts crying, runs to mommy, and complains, "Daddy yelled at me."

I'd point out the remove-the-mote-from-your-own-eye type ideals...but at the risk of the same hypocrisy myself. I have no delusions I am no sinner and you are. But I am, likely, already guilty of the same hypocrisy I'm accusing you of.

Just, you know...stop wickedly telling me I'm wicked for wickedly telling others they're wicked, and I'll stop wickedly telling you you're wicked for wickedly telling me I'm wicked for wickedly telling others they're wicked, etc.... Sheesh.

Edited Thursday at 08:54 PM by The Folk Prophet

[NeuroTypical]

27 minutes ago, The Folk Prophet said:

Just, you know...stop wickedly telling me I'm wicked for wickedly telling others they're wicked, and I'll stop wickedly telling you you're wicked for wickedly telling me I'm wicked for wickedly telling others they're wicked, etc.... Sheesh.

 plus ?

[The Folk Prophet]

2 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

 plus ?

Remember the time John Wick John Wicked Wicked's Wicked Witch of the West?

[Traveler]

For a very long time I have been conflicted with President Trump.  Though I think  his agenda is needed and overdue, there are a lot of people that do not like anything about Trump.  They think he is destroying America and creating international turmoil.  I had a resent conversation with someone that thinks Trump is the anti-Christ spoken of in scripture.  Of course this is a democrat.  I do not intend to rehash this discussion – with the one exception that homicidal violence seems to be considered a viable option to stop Trump and his inner circle. 

This post is not intended to reflect what I think the world needs in this moment.  Rather, I would point out that I believe there is enough animosity brewing that the Trump presidency could end with his assignation.  This could cause the fulfilment Biblical prophesy concerning the end of times.

I had hoped and thought that our recent annual Church conference would shed some light on this possibility.  Having listened and pondered the prophetic guidance from the conference – I have come to two conclusions.  The first is that the 2nd coming is coming soon and that there will be a lot of turmoil regardless of how soon, soon is.  Regardless of what happens on a world scale, I am not going to be able to affect much of anything.  In addition thing could unfold that would negate all my efforts to avoid what problem that could arise. 

The second conclusion is that Zion, and the saints of Zion will persevere.   I was reading in the Book of Mormon 3Nephi 22 that gave me comfort.  Those that may want to read – verse 11 summed up the thought that my job is not to worry about Trump, the nation or the world but to worry about myself to remail loyal to covenants (stand in holy places).

                                                                        

The Traveler

[Ironhold]

22 hours ago, Traveler said:

This post is not intended to reflect what I think the world needs in this moment.  Rather, I would point out that I believe there is enough animosity brewing that the Trump presidency could end with his assignation.  This could cause the fulfilment Biblical prophesy concerning the end of times.

I've seen individual observers suggest that Trump himself doesn't expect to survive long enough to finish his term, and in fact there's a popular internet meme claiming that Trump has only made it thus far because he's being protected from the other side by the late Japanese prime minister Shinzo Abe. 

As it is, you've got to wonder what the events of the last 5+ years have done to Trump mentally. 

[JohnsonJones]

On 4/10/2025 at 11:27 AM, The Folk Prophet said:

This is a pretty flawed point to try and make. I don't believe it's true -- because the claims your are making against conservatives here are mostly strawmen.

How can we convince you of anything when your problems are built of facades?

Obviously some of the things conservatives in this forum say are inconsiderate, rude, unkind, and flawed. Just like the things you often post are inconsiderate, rude, unkind, and flawed. Because we're all flawed mortals who say inconsiderate, rude, unkind, and flawed things, no matter our political views.

But somehow that's translated to you that conservatives here worship Trump and despise anyone they don't agree with politically.

But if we point out that your commentary can easily be views as despising those you don't agree with politically, you respond with something like, "I don't despise anyone here." Which you expect us to just accept. Fair enough. ...but then refuse to accept the same of us. Not fair.

Yeah...easy to convince... I don't think so.

Putting aside that "conservative Latter-day Saints" isn't exactly a "niche"...depending on how one defines "niche"...but putting that aside...

You're kind of stereo-typing everyone. Are you really under the impression we all engage in this forum for the same reason?

I, myself, started engaging because the prophets asked us to. It was an effort at obedience. I had no interest in feeling good about myself (other than feeling like I was following the prophets' and apostles' counsel and being obedient). I'm flawed, so I can't claim I've never felt self-satisfaction at piling on to someone with whom I disagreed...but I also learned from that, have made significant changes to the way I communicate, and participate far less than I used to because I'm so bad at that. I still do it sometimes. I try to fix it when I do. Because I'm interested in following the prophets, following Christ, being obedient, showing love for my fellow man, and avoiding contention.

And yet, apparently, you've taken it upon yourself to tell me I'm not worshipping Jesus and hate my fellow man because I'm conservative politically.

Thanks?

 

And you think calling us weird, Trump worshippers, false followers of Jesus, and accusing us of hating others is the best form of defense?

I can't speak for anyone else here...so I'll only respond for myself.

You call me a "Conservative". I'm not. I'm not a Republican (though I tend to vote that way), I'm not a Conservative (though my political ideals tend to line up that way).

I'm a a disciple of Jesus Christ.

The things Trump does that I am supportive of, or the things that are part of the "Conservative" or "Republican" parties that I support, I support because they align with my understanding of Christ's gospel and the government ideals that I believe were given by God to the founding fathers and are taught in the Book of Mormon and by many of our prophets and apostles through the years.

The things Trump or Conservatives do that I am not supportive of, I do not support because it does not align with those things, per my best understanding.

I am a Christ-first thinker, contrary to your accusations. And I find it particularly and EXTREMELY offensive to be told I'm not following or worshipping Christ because I agree with and like a lot of what Trump is doing.

And I would dare guess my approach to politics (while not completely or exactly the same), and the resultant offense I take from your accusations, is probably broadly representative of most conservatives on this forum.

I don't care if you are for socialism, higher taxes, bigger government, or anything of the sort. You may be. You may not be. You may be just playing devils advocate for things. That's your business. I may disagree with you on what you actually think or not. And that's okay.

But please stop telling me (even by implication) I'm worshipping Trump instead of Christ. Stop saying that true followers of Christ would be Democrats because their ideals align with Christ's better. It's not true. But moreover -- it's incredibly rude.

Perhaps my horror and disgust at some of the things being said on these forums have promoted me to be too aggressive towards those of my own people.  In that, I am sorry. 

I've never said true followers of Christ would be Democrats (I've only stated that Jesus's views are liberal, they were back then, and they are today as wel).  There are many platforms that the Democrats have that go contrary to the teachings of the Lord.  There are also platforms that the Republicans have that go contrary to the Lord.  I'm not talking about Democrats vs. Republicans here, but Conservative views vs. Liberal views with how the world sees them today.

I'm a conservative myself (and Ironically, I'm almost positive no one here knows what my actual political beliefs are.  I don't think anyone is actually interested in that as they are so caught up in being angry at me that they have no real interest in my own political sway).  

I find a LOT of what is said on these forums concerning anyone who is not a Trump worshipper.  (And if one is not, perhaps they should make it far more clear and speak up against such things, rather than seemingly acquiesce when those of us who do not worship Trump are made to feel uncomfortable, unwanted, despised, and hated).

I seem to be one of the only ones that sees this as extremely concerning.  However, if these reasons they have for a lot of these statements are valid...I should be easy to convince and bring over to their side.

Why would I be easy to convince...or should be?

Because, as I said, I am actually a moderate conservative.  If you cannot convince me, and I'm actually on your side of the political equation, what makes You think you will convince others?

Look...these are the commandments we are ignoring on this forum when we label liberals or insult their intelligence, or any number of other things.

-------------------

 

#1 - Love God with all your heart, might, mind and strength.

God does not want you to do things simply because you have to.  You do them because you love him.  You want to do what he would want you to do.

#2 - Love your neighbor as yourself.

This is the hardest commandment to follow.  If you love your neighbor, you will give them everything.  That means you will feed them just as soon as you would feed yourself.  You would shelter them, just as soon as you would shelter yourself. 

I know of almost no one that will do this, but this is an ideal we should strive for.

#3 - Love thy enemies. 

We don't say how terrible our enemies are in this way or mock them.  We love them.  We hate the sin, but love the sinner. 

--------------------------------------------

We have this misconstrued idea here that the Lord's values are Western morality, whether it is conservative or liberal.  It is not, though with the above statements, Conservatives normally do not have these values. 

If so, why complain about helping others gain food and shelter?  Why is it so offensive that our neighbors (or even our enemies) should have a way (and regardless of whether it is taken under auspices of force such as the Early Church did to members, or in a lesser degree, how the US government does today with taxes) to feed the poor and hungry.  

Why are we so against welcoming immigrants, no matter who they are, to be with us in our nation and share with them the goodness of what we have (and as I conservative, I know one of these answers.  It's because of the fear that we do not have enough for them and that we are simply paying for them without a return for it, as well as criminal elements entering this nation of which will bring crime and misery with it.  They have shown they are already willing to break the law...they probably won't have problems breaking others.  This does not mean I am on the right in this area, and I've seen the First Presidency seemingly teach a more welcoming aspect towards immigrants.  Reality paints a different picture to me than what I see as fantasy, but I also think Jesus would not turn anyone away.  We are all beggars before him and all are illegal in relation to his commandments).  

This is what Jesus taught, and that along with the way they did it in the New Testament is absolutely what many would consider Liberal today.  Turning the other cheek, going the extra mile, are all liberal ideals. 

These have never been Conservative Ideals in my lifetime.  I'm leaning more towards Libertarian ideas these days, but I have no illusions that these may not be in line with what the Lord actually desires, and at times it causes me difficulty in reconciling my own politics in regards to what the Lord would teach.  In fact, at times in some threads I have actually mourned my own failings in this regard.

Most here have no idea what my political ideas really are (and they are simple, when boiled to the heart of it). 

I defend Liberals on these forums because almost no one else will do so and almost no one else will point out that a Lot of what we are accusing the "Liberals" of doing are things we ourselves are doing.

Remember, when one finger is pointing to them, four others are pointing back at ourselves.  We are so busy trying to point out the mote in the Liberals eyes, that we don't notice the one in our own.

One person...that's it, that I've seen defending Liberals to any degree, and they seem to be Liberal themselves.  I've seen one that is lukewarm on how they talk regarding them and is more neutral.  I don't see anyone else standing up for them.  

I am not really a friend to "liberals" but as a Christian, I will defend their image that they can also be good people, because as a Christian, if they are also Christian, they are Family.  They are OUR Family.  They are OUR people. 

Do we really want to show our hate and disgust of those who should be our Family?  We call them brothers and sisters in church, we call them fellow Saints.  Are we, or are we not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or are you members of some other church where those who are "Liberals" are not welcome.

As I said, I'm normally considered a moderate Conservative to myself (and as I said also, others consider me just a straight up conservative) and I do not feel welcome at times in many of these threads these days.  Many of the things said about those who are not followers of Trump (and if you are not, why not speak up against these things) actually make me feel unwelcome here.  They make me feel unhappy and terrible feelings arise due to how I feel in response.  It's why I speak up, because if no one speaks up, then these types of things continue to go on.

What you DO NOT REALIZE is that, as a conservative minded individual, I feel more able to point out the problems that us conservatives are having because I am one of them. 

The GREAT IRONY, is that I am not considered Liberal in any way, shape, or form, in any other place but here.  In fact, in some places, ironically, I am actually considered a FAR RIGHT conservative.  If I, who is seen that way, is considered so far left on these forums that people spout how liberal and far left I am, or how non-conservative I am and I can't understand conservatives or where the movement is and that's why I have problems...

That speaks volumes on how far a forum has gone into putting their own political idealogy over that of Christianity or anything else.

I am shocked at how quickly this forum has devolved into an area where we could express valid ideas without being labeled as not "good" or even "Evil" because we refuse to bow the knee to Trump.

Outside the US right now, contacts I have are painting a grim picture of what Trump is seen as being.  Saints worldwide are not "appreciating" the same things that people on these forums think they should.  In fact, I'd say quite a number of Saints worldwide suffer from "TDS" as this thread puts it.  Do we wish to welcome them to our rooms and discussions, or are these forums only for United States Members who are those who strongly support Trump?

Because if it's the latter, that's a great minority of Saints (though from these forums it would seem the majority, this is not reality). 

A large majority in the Utah, Idaho, Arizona areas may be this far to the right, in fact, it may even be a majority of Saints in the US, but once out of the US, it's not like this.  Are we a worldwide church, or are we the small group that pertains specifically to the conservative members (and not even all of them, as I myself can attest personally) that follow and support Trump?

Are we brothers and sisters in the Church, or is this some other church that these forums represent?

Edited Monday at 10:16 AM by JohnsonJones

[Carborendum]

Yeah, when I hear all the incidents of conservatives supporting Trump's agenda, it's just tariffying!

Edited Monday at 12:42 PM by Carborendum

[Carborendum]

Ex-January 6 prosecutors urge attorney disciplinary board to investigate Trump’s controversial pick to be DC’s top prosecutor

For the Jan 6 prosecutors to consider anyone else as "controversial" is laughable.

[The Folk Prophet]

6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Perhaps my horror and disgust at some of the things being said on these forums have promoted me to be too aggressive towards those of my own people.  In that, I am sorry. 

I've never said true followers of Christ would be Democrats (I've only stated that Jesus's views are liberal, they were back then, and they are today as wel).  There are many platforms that the Democrats have that go contrary to the teachings of the Lord.  There are also platforms that the Republicans have that go contrary to the Lord.  I'm not talking about Democrats vs. Republicans here, but Conservative views vs. Liberal views with how the world sees them today.

I'm a conservative myself (and Ironically, I'm almost positive no one here knows what my actual political beliefs are.  I don't think anyone is actually interested in that as they are so caught up in being angry at me that they have no real interest in my own political sway).  

I find a LOT of what is said on these forums concerning anyone who is not a Trump worshipper.  (And if one is not, perhaps they should make it far more clear and speak up against such things, rather than seemingly acquiesce when those of us who do not worship Trump are made to feel uncomfortable, unwanted, despised, and hated).

I seem to be one of the only ones that sees this as extremely concerning.  However, if these reasons they have for a lot of these statements are valid...I should be easy to convince and bring over to their side.

Why would I be easy to convince...or should be?

Because, as I said, I am actually a moderate conservative.  If you cannot convince me, and I'm actually on your side of the political equation, what makes You think you will convince others?

Look...these are the commandments we are ignoring on this forum when we label liberals or insult their intelligence, or any number of other things.

-------------------

 

#1 - Love God with all your heart, might, mind and strength.

God does not want you to do things simply because you have to.  You do them because you love him.  You want to do what he would want you to do.

#2 - Love your neighbor as yourself.

This is the hardest commandment to follow.  If you love your neighbor, you will give them everything.  That means you will feed them just as soon as you would feed yourself.  You would shelter them, just as soon as you would shelter yourself. 

I know of almost no one that will do this, but this is an ideal we should strive for.

#3 - Love thy enemies. 

We don't say how terrible our enemies are in this way or mock them.  We love them.  We hate the sin, but love the sinner. 

--------------------------------------------

We have this misconstrued idea here that the Lord's values are Western morality, whether it is conservative or liberal.  It is not, though with the above statements, Conservatives normally do not have these values. 

If so, why complain about helping others gain food and shelter?  Why is it so offensive that our neighbors (or even our enemies) should have a way (and regardless of whether it is taken under auspices of force such as the Early Church did to members, or in a lesser degree, how the US government does today with taxes) to feed the poor and hungry.  

Why are we so against welcoming immigrants, no matter who they are, to be with us in our nation and share with them the goodness of what we have (and as I conservative, I know one of these answers.  It's because of the fear that we do not have enough for them and that we are simply paying for them without a return for it, as well as criminal elements entering this nation of which will bring crime and misery with it.  They have shown they are already willing to break the law...they probably won't have problems breaking others.  This does not mean I am on the right in this area, and I've seen the First Presidency seemingly teach a more welcoming aspect towards immigrants.  Reality paints a different picture to me than what I see as fantasy, but I also think Jesus would not turn anyone away.  We are all beggars before him and all are illegal in relation to his commandments).  

This is what Jesus taught, and that along with the way they did it in the New Testament is absolutely what many would consider Liberal today.  Turning the other cheek, going the extra mile, are all liberal ideals. 

These have never been Conservative Ideals in my lifetime.  I'm leaning more towards Libertarian ideas these days, but I have no illusions that these may not be in line with what the Lord actually desires, and at times it causes me difficulty in reconciling my own politics in regards to what the Lord would teach.  In fact, at times in some threads I have actually mourned my own failings in this regard.

Most here have no idea what my political ideas really are (and they are simple, when boiled to the heart of it). 

I defend Liberals on these forums because almost no one else will do so and almost no one else will point out that a Lot of what we are accusing the "Liberals" of doing are things we ourselves are doing.

Remember, when one finger is pointing to them, four others are pointing back at ourselves.  We are so busy trying to point out the mote in the Liberals eyes, that we don't notice the one in our own.

One person...that's it, that I've seen defending Liberals to any degree, and they seem to be Liberal themselves.  I've seen one that is lukewarm on how they talk regarding them and is more neutral.  I don't see anyone else standing up for them.  

I am not really a friend to "liberals" but as a Christian, I will defend their image that they can also be good people, because as a Christian, if they are also Christian, they are Family.  They are OUR Family.  They are OUR people. 

Do we really want to show our hate and disgust of those who should be our Family?  We call them brothers and sisters in church, we call them fellow Saints.  Are we, or are we not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or are you members of some other church where those who are "Liberals" are not welcome.

As I said, I'm normally considered a moderate Conservative to myself (and as I said also, others consider me just a straight up conservative) and I do not feel welcome at times in many of these threads these days.  Many of the things said about those who are not followers of Trump (and if you are not, why not speak up against these things) actually make me feel unwelcome here.  They make me feel unhappy and terrible feelings arise due to how I feel in response.  It's why I speak up, because if no one speaks up, then these types of things continue to go on.

What you DO NOT REALIZE is that, as a conservative minded individual, I feel more able to point out the problems that us conservatives are having because I am one of them. 

The GREAT IRONY, is that I am not considered Liberal in any way, shape, or form, in any other place but here.  In fact, in some places, ironically, I am actually considered a FAR RIGHT conservative.  If I, who is seen that way, is considered so far left on these forums that people spout how liberal and far left I am, or how non-conservative I am and I can't understand conservatives or where the movement is and that's why I have problems...

That speaks volumes on how far a forum has gone into putting their own political idealogy over that of Christianity or anything else.

I am shocked at how quickly this forum has devolved into an area where we could express valid ideas without being labeled as not "good" or even "Evil" because we refuse to bow the knee to Trump.

Outside the US right now, contacts I have are painting a grim picture of what Trump is seen as being.  Saints worldwide are not "appreciating" the same things that people on these forums think they should.  In fact, I'd say quite a number of Saints worldwide suffer from "TDS" as this thread puts it.  Do we wish to welcome them to our rooms and discussions, or are these forums only for United States Members who are those who strongly support Trump?

Because if it's the latter, that's a great minority of Saints (though from these forums it would seem the majority, this is not reality). 

A large majority in the Utah, Idaho, Arizona areas may be this far to the right, in fact, it may even be a majority of Saints in the US, but once out of the US, it's not like this.  Are we a worldwide church, or are we the small group that pertains specifically to the conservative members (and not even all of them, as I myself can attest personally) that follow and support Trump?

Are we brothers and sisters in the Church, or is this some other church that these forums represent?

I was going to respond to this point by point (as your opener seemed somewhat conciliatory...) ...but once again... followed by nothing but strawmen arguments.

You're not going to be easy to convince because you have predetermined what's in the hearts of your brethren and refuse to consider otherwise.

No one can rationally converse with that sort of irrationality.

Thanks for the conversation thus far. But I'm out.

[NeuroTypical]

8 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

If so, why complain about helping others gain food and shelter?  Why is it so offensive that our neighbors (or even our enemies) should have a way (and regardless of whether it is taken under auspices of force such as the Early Church did to members, or in a lesser degree, how the US government does today with taxes) to feed the poor and hungry.  

We're supposed to impart our substance and ease the sufferings of the poor and needy.

But when we assign those tasks to the govt to do things for us, that's when lucifer enters the chat.  Here's a list of things being done by govt in the name of helping the poor and needy.  Please tell me how many of them you support: 

- "Safe injection sites", where drug addicted folk can get government aid in taking their illegal substances.

- Taxpayer subsidized abortion on demand.

- Subsidizing single motherhood which encourages absent fathers, and has all but succeeded in America's black communities. 

- Taxpayer funded gender-affirming care for trans people.

 

 

 

[Carborendum]

32 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

We're supposed to impart our substance and ease the sufferings of the poor and needy.

But when we assign those tasks to the govt to do things for us, that's when lucifer enters the chat. 

The benefit of doing it yourself is that you can be the judge of a "worthy cause." 

I wanted my money to go to a particular cause that I thought was worthy.  But I found out that the particular charity sent my money to a different cause which I absolutely did not agree with.  I stopped giving to them.

(It would be like giving money to feed a starving family and finding out that my money went to abort babies.)

Since then, I've been looking for a trustworthy charity that I can vet for myself.  I believe I've found one.  And I'm vetting them.  In the meantime, I'm doing what I can to help individuals in my circle of influence.

Helping people in your immediate circles allows an almost familial connection to form.  And such a connection is edifying even if it is not sealed under the Holy Spirit of Promise.

It is really easy to sit in a comfort chair and look down one's nose at "those filthy rich people who never help anyone."  But how often have poor people given money to an individual that they know?  Most don't do so because... they don't have the money themselves.  How can such people judge those who do have money?

It is as much a responsibility as it is a privilege.  It isn't my money.  It's the Lord's money.  Should I give the Lord's money to Planned Parenthood?  How about a child-gender-transition clinic?  Is that what the Lord would want?  That's who the government was sending that money to.

They were also giving money to households if they could prove that no father was in the home.  Sounds nice and all.  But it actually ENCOURAGED people to NOT be married so they could get a government handout.  That's what broke the Black households in America.  Money was not the solution.  God is the solution.  But they accepted money while making compromises on the God front.

No, I'm a faithful steward of the Lord's money.  And I will give it to causes that the Lord would approve of.  The Lord didn't give it to a corrupt politician or bureaucrat.  He gave it to me to watch over and provide relief to those in need.  And I will do as the Lord directs.

[Phoenix_person]

5 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

But how often have poor people given money to an individual that they know?  Most don't do so because... they don't have the money themselves.  How can such people judge those who do have money?

I have frequently seen people near poverty part with small amounts of money to help people whom they felt had a greater need for it. And anyone in the service industry will tell you that poor people always tip better than wealthier folks. A lot of poor people understand that community doesn't have monetary value, and so they aren't above parting with a few dollars for the good of their community when they can spare a bit.

[NeuroTypical]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of class warfare.  Whether it's folks with more judging those with less, or folks with less judging those with more.   Like any demographic, you can find good'uns and bad'uns in both places.

When I seek for worthy principles, "other than bare minimum safety nets to preserve life, keep the federal government out of the poverty business" has seemed like a worthy principle.  States can do what they want, and I'll either be happy with it or not.