Trump (Or any Subject) Derangement Syndrome

[LDSGator]

You won’t admit this because it doesn’t fit your current narrative but I’ve always defended you too, so it’s not personal. 

Edited February 22 by LDSGator

[Traveler]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

 

1.  The Book of Mormon teaches us to elect righteous leaders.  When that isn't possible, we have been taught in the past to try to elect those who are the most righteous (or the more righteous).  The Book of Mormon is FULL of stories of what happens when one does not elect righteous leaders.

2.  It is very evident that Trump is an Anti-Christ.  They are those that either directly deny the Lord, or, if we go with how Joseph Smith sometimes portrayed in (such as in relation to Bennet), they are those whose actions lead others away from the Lord and/or who do the opposite things that the Lord does.

3.  If one worships Jesus, than they talk about Jesus's teachings.  They follow what he preaches and they make him the center of their lives.  We love Jesus Christ and we love him enough that we want others to know about Jesus.  He is our all, and we wish for others to also become his followers so they can also feel his spirit and his love.  If someone else is the center of your life to the point that you talk about him far more than you do about Jesus, on a forum dedicated to Jesus's gospel and his teachings, what does that say about us?

When so much of the discussion centers around someone who does the opposite of what the Lord teaches us to do in his normal life, who is consumed by pride, lust, and greed, than I find more written on it than other topics (even though there are other topics I read), whose forum am I supposed to think this is?

4.  I am expressing how I feel.  I do not feel comfortable when everything seems designed to tell those (who are not US citizens (I am a citizen, in the past I have quite a bit outside the US and have quite a number of non-US friends) or those who may not feel super positive or super supportive of how Trump acts) that they are the wicked and fallen, that they are the enemy, and they should be ashamed of themselves on this forum.  Many posts have been written praising Trump and telling anyone who is not lockstep in line with him (akin to what I would even say is worship) that they were the enemy, or they were the ones causing problems and are terrible people. 

This is Trump worship.  You may tell others to repent, but let it be about actual things with not following Jesus Christ.

5.  If I despised you or others on this forum, I would not return at all.  AS it is, I do not feel comfortable with so many posts trying to tell me to repent of not praising Trump (and I should mark, no one on this forum knows how much I do or do not support Trump or his policies.  There are posts out there which probably show I have positive ideas on a policy or two of his, and of course those that show I have negative opinions, so regardless of what one thinks, I do not think anyone here actually knows what my thoughts are on this because I don't go on and on about them.  The only thing I've been explicitly clear on is that Trump is a wicked man and his actions are Anti-Christ.   If a man in the Book of Mormon was Anti-Christ because he was doing all sorts of sin and leading others to do that sin as well....hmmm). 

People tend not to go to places where they feel uncomfortable.  I am pointing that out.  A majority of the members today are not Conservative members in the United States.  If I feel uncomfortable with how many of the discussions on this forum are as a multi-year member of the forum and a conservative, I imagine there are a lot of others who are even more uncomfortable.

This supposedly is a forum that discusses the gospel of an International Church called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  If it is, let it be that. 

Not the forum where President Trump is the focus.  How is praising Trump and telling those who do not agree with an action of his that they are the enemy going to help convert others to the Gospel?  How is that going to help others learn to Love God with all their heart, and to love their neighbors as themselves?  How is that helping someone to get interested in reading the Book of Mormon or to feel the Spirit.

6.  When I read some of the posts here, I feel a very strong spirit of hatred against others like me, and that brings within me the spirit of contention.  Neither of those are conducive to the Spirit of the Lord and it makes me feel terrible.  That is why I have not come to this forum as much, because I do not want to feel that type of terrible spirit within me.  I want to have the Spirit of the Lord.

I came to the forum many years ago because it was one of the few that tried to make being positive about the Church and the gospel a priority.  It tried to welcome faithful members as a focus of the forum, and those that would tear the gospel down as an anathema.  I loved that about the forum and I still find it in the gospel forum most of the time.  The other forums also used to have a similar feel (or off topic...was off topic and normally not political, or as political). 

As I said above, if this forum is still a Forum about the gospel of Jesus Christ, then let it be that.

I have thought to engage you post and certain thoughts.  My intention is to be careful because there are some things that may appear that I disagree, but I am not sure that is the case.  Hopefully, it is mostly a misunderstanding.

My understanding of righteousness is someone that makes and keeps covenants with G-d.  The opposite of righteousness is wickedness and thus is someone that either refuses to covenant with G-d or deliberately breaks their covenant with G-d.   I believe that there is a third option – someone that does not know or understand G-d and his covenants.

I am of the mind that the vast majority of us humans fall into this third option of someone, that to some degree or another, just does not understand that much about G-d or his covenants as we should.

We tend to think only someone that is anti-Christ would crucify Him – and yet the last words of Christ during his mortal experience were, “Father forgive them for they know no what they do.”

At another time and place Jesus forbid his disciples from judging others.  Some scholars have interpreted that what Jesus said would be better translated as Jesus forbidding his disciples from condemning others.  This introduces a bit of a conundrum.  Would condemning someone as being anti-Christ be an actual act of an anti-Christ?

Jesus said that to look upon another and lust after them, means that we have already committed adultery in our heart.  If we are to only have those void of adultery to be our leaders – who has never committed adultery in their heart?  And who is worthy to determine who has or has not repented?  Be it 7 or 70 times 7 acts of repentance?

I would personally be elated if an Apostle of Christ could be elected.  Unfortunately, in our society to even write in an Apostle of Christ would be a wasted ballot. 

I would make one point for your consideration.  In the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints donated funds are considered sacred.  The abuse and misuse of donated funds to the Church are considered sufficient for excommunication from the Church.  It is an act that requires the First Presidency review for repentance and restoration of covenant blessings.   During my entire lifetime (which is approaching 8 decades) there has never been a president of the United States of America that believes donated (taxed) funds are sacred and should not be wasted or abused than what appears to me to be the actions of President Trump.

I do not personally know Trump.  I have not liked him much as a person because I am not a fan of corporate billionaires.  I am even less a fan of professional politicians.   It has been more than 50 years that I have felt that I could campaign for anyone running for political office because of my personal prejudice of those willing to run for a national political office.

Because of my personal covenants with G-d and especially the 12^th Article of Faith I have personally bit my tongue about kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates.  I hope for a time when Christ will reign.  But until such a time, I will abide by the laws that are established – even while I visit such places as Russia or China or wherever.   And yet for all my disappointments in political leaders I dare not judge or condemn any so as to present my witness that any are without any doubt in my mind to be anti-Christ.  Though I believe many things of the world to be anti-Christ and should be called out and witnessed to be anti-Christ – I do not know enough about any individual to so label them. 

 

The Traveler

[mirkwood]

2 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

It doesn't take much to see them on the forum.  In fact,  you can find accusatory statements in this very thread that are not made by me.

However, it would be impolite to point out specific theads or posts at this time.  In addition, if I were to do so, I imagine some people who made them would take slight.  Furthermore, there are those that probably would use that as evidence that I was targeting individuals, or being mean, or insulting someone (as has already been lobbied at me and of which I responded to in an attempt to say, this was not my purpose).  For that reason, I think it is better if I do not get more specific in this instance as that would only further the Spirit of Contention which has been rife here.  (And this post probably does not help with it either, but being more specific I can only imagine would make it even worse by several factors). 

 

That is a dodge since you can't really defend your claim.  Care to try again?  Say you misspoke?  Provide proof?  Triple down?

[zil2]

6 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

However, it would be impolite to point out specific theads or posts at this time.  In addition, if I were to do so, I imagine some people who made them would take slight.  Furthermore, there are those that probably would use that as evidence that I was targeting individuals, or being mean, or insulting someone (as has already been lobbied at me and of which I responded to in an attempt to say, this was not my purpose).  For that reason, I think it is better if I do not get more specific in this instance as that would only further the Spirit of Contention which has been rife here.  (And this post probably does not help with it either, but being more specific I can only imagine would make it even worse by several factors). 

It would not be impolite, mean, or insulting if we are asking you to do so.  And the mods could hardly complain if you did as we asked and did it in a polite fashion.

You believe people here are worshiping Trump. I'm certain no one else even understands why you think people here are worshiping Trump.  As members of the Church, we know what idol worship means in the modern world.  We recognize that things like ditching Church to watch Sunday sports would constitute idol worship; skipping tithing this year so I can buy a $4000 fountain pen would be idol worship.  We get the concept.  So how is it that we're worshiping Trump and yet unaware? Would it not be a blessing to us to understand so that we might change?

You can help us to understand by quoting a passage of text (better to quote as little as needed rather than the whole post), and saying something like: "This sentence sounds to me like worshiping Trump, because [blah blah blah].  If you don't worship Trump, can you explain to me [blah blah blah]?"  In this way, you explain your understanding without accusation and ask for someone to engage with you toward mutual understanding.  No offense, no contention, just seeking mutual understanding.

Now if you think we won't listen, or can't learn, then why publicly condemn us at all? It does no one an ounce of good.

Edited February 23 by zil2

[mirkwood]

4 minutes ago, zil2 said:

skipping tithing this year so I can buy a $4000 fountain pen would be idol worship.

 

Or in your case signs of addiction.

[The Folk Prophet]

7 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

It is very evident

Always a useful argument for those to whom it is not very evident.

7 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

A majority of the members today are not Conservative members in the United States.

Holy made up factoid, Batman!

7 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I feel a very strong spirit of hatred against others like me,

Even IF some of us thought you or others were morally wrong to not support Trump...how is that hatred on our part, but you believing we're morally wrong to support Trump isn't hatred on your part? How is it that you believe your posting in a condemnatory way isn't driving people away from Christ in the same way you're claiming other condemnatory posts are doing? Are you really that blind to the hypocrisy of your posts in that regard? Are you really unaware how offensive what you're saying is...as you claim how offensive what others say is?

7 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

That is why I have not come to this forum as much, because I do not want to feel that type of terrible spirit within me.  I want to have the Spirit of the Lord.

I've made the same choice and participate MUCH less than I used to. But I pretty much blame myself for the terrible spirit of contention that I caused.

Sure...others in the forum are culpable too. It's populated with mortals after all -- fallen beings, who all sin, falter, and fail right along side me.

I'm moderately aware, however, that my farts stink. I guess yours smell like vanilla beans -- or lavender -- or sugar cookies -- or pumpkin spice.

[Carborendum]

Federal Judge Orders Astronauts Be Returned To Space Station

Quote

U.S. — A district judge has issued a ruling saying Trump lacked the Constitutional authority to pick up two astronauts who have been stranded at the International Space Station for several months.

SpaceX has been ordered to return the astronauts immediately.

"I will not stand by while Donald Trump abuses his power like a dictator," said Judge Earl Flanders in his ruling. "Trump has no authority to pick up these astronauts."

...

The SpaceX craft docked at the ISS on Sunday and was preparing for the return journey to Earth when the orders stopped the process short. "Please bring us home, I just want a cheeseburger and a nap in a horizontal bed," said one of the crew.

At publishing time, Trump was polling at 100% approval among the stranded astronaut demographic.

[Carborendum]

A recent survey: 55% of self-identified "leftists" say that a Trump assassination is justifiable.

It is official.  There's no more "fringe elements of the party."  They are the majority of the party.  They're ok with murdering a duly elected President because they dislike him.

I say "him" and not specifically "his policies" because interviews with some of the individuals revealed that they could articulate only their hatred of Trump, himself.  Any attempt to obtain any specific policies, decision, official acts, political positions, etc. were answered with "Everything.  He's doing everything wrong."

Very articulate.  They don't seem to even know why they are against him.

Edited April 7 by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

48 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

A recent survey: 55% of self-identified "leftists" say that a Trump assassination is justifiable.

Yeesh.  That article is chilling.   

I mean, I know folks on the left have always been more tolerant/supportive of political violence, but the trend just keeps getting worse.   I was waiting for an update to this study, I guess I've got it now:

 

Our itinerant leftie thirdhour poster has warned us about stuff like this, and has spoken out against it on this forum. 

 

 

Edited April 7 by NeuroTypical

[LDSGator]

11 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Our itinerant leftie thirdhour poster

@mirkwood has a name you know. 

[Carborendum]

17 hours ago, NeuroTypical said:

Our itinerant leftie thirdhour poster has warned us about stuff like this, and has spoken out against it on this forum. 

Yes, I was pretty sure he was one of the sane ones. So, good for him.

But that doesn't change the fact that not only is a majority of his tribe ok with murder, but around 1/3 of America as a whole is ok with murdering someone for political differences.

And what is the most frightening is that they can't even articulate why.  That's some serious brainwashing of a whole lot of people.

*****************************

A recent report indicated that US Customs and Border Protection was actually facilitating child trafficking (sex or sweat shop or both) under Biden.  They helped get the children to the prostitution rings and sweat shops.  And the Dems did not care.

What's worse is that they are against helping Trump find these children.  Hmm... I wonder why.

Like Trump said, he could find a dozen of these rings/shops where he frees thousands of children who were forced into labor and prostitution, and an activist judge would tell Trump that he has no right to remove them from their homes and their places of employment.

And the average Dem would be drone-like repeating whatever narrative comes from the mainstream media and the astroturf slogan of the day is.

Edited April 8 by Carborendum

[LDSGator]

21 minutes ago, Carborendum said:

was pretty sure he was one of the sane ones. 

 

I think the majority of conservatives here know a very different kind of leftist than I do, or rely too much on right wing news to get their description of leftists in real life.

There absolutely are leftists who think violence is a-ok. They are disgusting people.
 

There are also conservatives who look for reasons to use violence too. They are disgusting people.

I get tribal loyalty, I get we all want to think the worst of those who disagree with us-but violence is a human problem, not a political one.     

[LDSGator]

How some view leftists reminds me of how leftists wrongly view pro lifers. They’ll view your average pro life person as being cool with bombing abortion clinics and killing people just to save unborn babies. It‘s nonsense of course. Pro life leaders decry the violence…just like virtually every democrat did when Trump was almost assassinated. 
 

Like I said, I get tribal loyalty, I get thinking the worst of others who disagree with us. But maybe we see a propensity for violence in others because it’s something we subconsciously want to do to them for some reason. 

Edited April 7 by LDSGator

[NeuroTypical]

24 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

But maybe we see a propensity for violence in others because it’s something we subconsciously want to do to them for some reason. 

Well, I mean, in this particular case, we are looking at people not a propensity for violence, but people who support violence for political ends. 

When you ask a bunch of “younger, highly online, and ideologically left-aligned users” how they feel about assassinating Trump or Musk, and an alarmingly large percentage say "yeah bro, I'm in favor of stuff like that."  Do I think many of them are actually willing to do something about it?  No.  But some will.  

Again: 
- The guy who shot Trump had donated to ActBlue in the past. 
- The guy they pulled out of the bushes at Trump's golf course before he could act had donated to ActBlue.
- The guy who shot the UHC president was the dictionary definition of a young online left-aligned person.
- I don't see anything yet about Narciso Gallardo Fernandez, the California copycat big pharma hater who executed a random Wallgreens employee last week.  Any bets as to his political leanings?

And that's just in the last 12 months.  So yeah, hundreds of thousands of lefties out there, a crapton are supportive of deadly violence, and a handful are actively committing it.   The last abortion clinic act of violence happened in 2015, by a mentally ill guy of no particular politics.  The last clinic bombing was 27 years ago.  From where I'm standing, you can only get so far drawing similarities between one and the other. 

 

 

[LDSGator]

12 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, I mean, in this particular case, we are looking at people not a propensity for violence, but people who support violence for political ends. 

Yes, we are absolutely looking at people. So….

Humans generally are quick to see in others what they struggle with. If you struggle with lust, you’ ll think everyone else does and see it in others. After all, since you struggle with it you can easily see it. 
 

If you struggle with envy, you’ll be quick to condemn it in others and you’ll point it out easily because you know what it’s like. 
 

Same with anger/violence. If you struggle with anger and violence it should come as no surprise that you’ll assume everyone else does too. 

 

12 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

From where I'm standing, you can only get so far drawing similarities between one and the other. 

Sure, I’ll draw another similarity. Some conservatives view leftists the same way leftists view MAGA hatters. As angry, violent and trashy. It’s nonsense. Of course some MAGA hatters are angry, violent and rude.  Just like how some leftists are violent. It’s a minority in both cases, but it’s validating to us to think the worst of the other side. 

Edited April 7 by LDSGator

[LDSGator]

To be open-I cut off contact with two leftist family members who both have politically violent tendencies. One is 350 pounds and completely useless if he actually had to resort to violence. The other is very very old. So they aren’t dangerous-just annoying.
 

I also know conservatives who dream of the day they can play Punisher and shoot someone who accidentally bumped into them at the county fair. So I’m not naive to political violence. I know it exists. 

[NeuroTypical]

23 minutes ago, LDSGator said:

I also know conservatives who dream of the day they can play Punisher and shoot someone who accidentally bumped into them at the county fair.

I'm agreeing with all of your points here @LDSGator.    My point remains, although plenty of hateful people who dream of violence exist in every demographic and on every side of politics, there's only one side of politics where it's starting to get enacted, cheered on by a supportive community of well-wishers.  There's an art and a science to normalizing things, and the early stages of it are happening right now.  Nobody donates money to folks planning to blow up an abortion clinic.  Tons of people donate money to the UHC killer's legal defense fund.  

Show me someone worried about the rise of authoritarian fascism with our current president, but not worried about the growth of the murderous left, and I'll show you someone misinformed or so radically biased they are part of the problem. 

 

[LDSGator]

2 minutes ago, NeuroTypical said:

My point remains, although plenty of hateful people who dream of violence exist in every demographic and on every side of politics, there's only one side of politics where it's starting to get enacted, cheered on by a supportive community of well-wishers.  There's an art and a science to normalizing things, and the early stages of it are happening right now.  Nobody donates money to folks planning to blow up an abortion clinic.  Tons of people donate money to the UHC killer's legal defense fund.  

Show me someone worried about the rise of authoritarian fascism with our current president, but not worried about the growth of the murderous left, and I'll show you someone misinformed or so radically biased they are part of the problem. 

Fair enough, but I can’t fully agree. If the hard right pro life crowd had the chance they’d absolutely support someone who blew up a clinic. Either by shelter, food, or finance. 

[LDSGator]

@NeuroTypical-check your fb inbox. 

[JohnsonJones]

1 hour ago, NeuroTypical said:

Well, I mean, in this particular case, we are looking at people not a propensity for violence, but people who support violence for political ends. 

When you ask a bunch of “younger, highly online, and ideologically left-aligned users” how they feel about assassinating Trump or Musk, and an alarmingly large percentage say "yeah bro, I'm in favor of stuff like that."  Do I think many of them are actually willing to do something about it?  No.  But some will.  

Again: 
- The guy who shot Trump had donated to ActBlue in the past. 
- The guy they pulled out of the bushes at Trump's golf course before he could act had donated to ActBlue.
- The guy who shot the UHC president was the dictionary definition of a young online left-aligned person.
- I don't see anything yet about Narciso Gallardo Fernandez, the California copycat big pharma hater who executed a random Wallgreens employee last week.  Any bets as to his political leanings?

And that's just in the last 12 months.  So yeah, hundreds of thousands of lefties out there, a crapton are supportive of deadly violence, and a handful are actively committing it.   The last abortion clinic act of violence happened in 2015, by a mentally ill guy of no particular politics.  The last clinic bombing was 27 years ago.  From where I'm standing, you can only get so far drawing similarities between one and the other. 

 

 

 

I deal with a Lot of left leaning people (to clarify, I work with students and academia...there's a Lot of liberal people in certain areas of academia).  I don't know any of them that have said that.  I Have heard some of them say that a lot of the things that have happened recently under Trump would have never happened had he never been elected, and a meme or whatever they call it has gone around saying that if the shooter who tried to shoot Trump when the election was going on had been successful, a lot of the grief they are getting recently would never have occurred. 

Ironically, wasn't that kid a Republican and from a Conservative family?

I would think if people really were okay with shooting Trump we'd hear a lot more about people actually attempting to do so.

Then again, maybe it's about to happen and I just have too much hope that people are not like that. 

Edited April 7 by JohnsonJones

[NeuroTypical]

1 hour ago, LDSGator said:

@NeuroTypical-check your fb inbox. 

Now sending me that stolen webcam pic of me during the last election is just uncalled for. 

[LDSGator]

1 minute ago, NeuroTypical said:

Now sending me that stolen webcam pic of me during the last election is just uncalled for. 

Hahahahahahaha

 

[Carborendum]

13 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Ironically, wasn't that kid a Republican

He was registered as a republican.  But he donated to a Democratic campaign.  So, this is meaningless.

Quote

and from a Conservative family?

No.

Quote

Crooks' father is registered to vote as a Libertarian, while his mother is registered as a Democrat, according to CNN. Both are social workers.

Newsweek

I don't know where you got that.

13 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I would think if people really were okay with shooting Trump we'd hear a lot more about people actually attempting to do so.

I'm surprised at how many people are willing to do so already (based on how many online videos there are of private and public individuals who have said so explicitly or implicitly.  But they don't attempt to do so because they are afraid of prison.

I'm ok with a lot of things that I won't actually do because I am aware of the consequences. But I'm amazed at how many people are publicly encouraging others to act out what they really want to do, but are afraid to actually do.

13 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

Then again, maybe it's about to happen and I just have too much hope that people are not like that. 

Not like what?  That they don't want to kill someone?  A lot more than you'd think.  

I was bullied as a kid because I was usually the smallest kid in the class.  Guess how often I wanted to "literally" kill my oppressors?  But I was unable to.

Quote

91 percent of men and 84 percent of women have had thoughts of killing someone

 Psychology of Murder

It is unfortunate that the article did not go into detail about how often each individual thought about it.  But if upwards of 90% of people think about it, is it a stretch to believe that at least a third of those people think about it quite often?

It doesn't take much in the way of political rhetoric to make people believe that a public figure is the source of all their problems.  And the world would be in such a better place if that person were not in the world.  Apply that to about 30% of the population and you have the statistic that started this sub-thread.

Edited April 8 by Carborendum

[NeuroTypical]

16 hours ago, JohnsonJones said:

I would think if people really were okay with shooting Trump we'd hear a lot more about people actually attempting to do so.

One hallmark of leftist thought, is that personal responsibility and action takes second place to governmental action and authority.   In other words, they want T gone, but they want someone else to do it for them.  In still other words, leftist action is mostly taken from the anonymous mob on the street, where individuals willingly hand over themselves to mob mentality.  Someone has to break out of that mold in order to climb onto a roof or inscribe a motto on a shell casing they then actually use themselves.

If I were to ignore the messages in this weekend's general conference about showing love and rejecting contention and division, I'd say they're mostly a bunch of cowards, too lacking in gumption to do anything besides gripe and find someone willing to act so they can support that person.    But I'm trying to be better than that.

Edited April 8 by NeuroTypical

[Carborendum]

The libs are still doing the cancelling thing for anything with the "stink" of Trump on him.

John Stamos Defends Emceeing Event at Mar-A-Lago: ‘Isn’t Political’

John Stamos Defends Mar-A-Lago Appearance | HuffPost Entertainment

It was a charity event for nurses.  You know, the people who help doctors with patients in hospitals.  But because the charity event was held at Mar-a-lago, they want to cancel Stamos (a lifelong Democrat).