How does science fit in with our doctrine?

[Nicartos]

I used to accept our church's teachings with little problem, but now, as I grow older and learn more, I seem to be assaulted by doubt on every side. With evolution, is science wrong? Are the scriptures not meant literally? Did God really make the earth in six days? Did He use evolution? Or maybe, is science right, and religion is wrong.... I don't want to believe it, but my faith is waning. Any advice, please!!

[Guest tomk]

My advice is: don't worry about it.

It has no bearing on your exaltation.

[Stampede]

might i direct you to a thread i made on the very same thing.

I had questions like that as well, but the more i research the more it builds my testimony because i feel like i get to understand a little more about How God works in a natural order to things.

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/10354-religeon-science-us-lds.html

[Stampede]

My advice is: don't worry about it.

It has no bearing on your exaltation.

The problem with this answer is:

The Catholics pull this all the time.... "God works in mysterious ways" and saying other such nonsense like that. (not trying to stab at our catholic brethren, But i do believe that not answering a question is worse than wrongly answering it)

While there is something to be said for the priesthood Power beign able to remove mountains and such. It is written that as we seek after knowledge and are faithful we will obtain hidden treasures of knowledge and all the mysteries of the universe shall be made known.

[Guest tomk]

I'm not saying "don't seek knowledge."

I'm saying "this subject does not impact YOUR salvation" - because it DOESN'T.

My advice is to not worry about it. Anyone is free to ignore my advice.

[Misshalfway]

First of all, I know all about doubt! It is cloudy and merky stuff that really makes faith slip and slide.

Look, there isn't a one of us here on this planet that can prove the things of God. God has revealed some of His knowledge and wisdom for us here. Sometimes faith and science align....sometimes they don't seem to. In the cases of the later....I choose to believe that perhaps I am not understanding God fully.....and that perhaps neither does the rest of the establishment. For me, I don't see a problem with evolution and creation. I don't always think science draws the correct conclusions from the documented observations. As for the six days thing, I am comforted because God's time is not our time. I think six days is really six creative periods.

And you know, after all is said and done, it doesn't really matter what science proves or what it doesn't prove. Keep your eye on the reasons you are here on earth. This entire experience is a test of faith. And with all tests of this nature, the answers will not always be given until the time is right.....and for some of our answers, we won't know til we get on the other side. It is like my son...always asking 'why'. And I say, 'because I say so' or 'wait until you are older.'

This is what walking on water is all about. Believing even when every logic says it can't be done. The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Believing in truth.....even when it is not popular or evidenced.....is STILL believing in truth.

I am going to say this as welll...... Go read more of your scriptures.... especially the Pearl. I think the more you learn about God and His plan for man, the more science won't be able to sway you.

[Vanhin]

I used to accept our church's teachings with little problem, but now, as I grow older and learn more, I seem to be assaulted by doubt on every side. With evolution, is science wrong? Are the scriptures not meant literally? Did God really make the earth in six days? Did He use evolution? Or maybe, is science right, and religion is wrong.... I don't want to believe it, but my faith is waning. Any advice, please!!

I don't see any conflict with true religion and true science.

Vanhin

[SundaeSarah]

Check with books by President Eyring - he's a scientist and wrote a book about that and being Mormon

[Palerider]

Check with books by President Eyring - he's a scientist and wrote a book about that and being Mormon

and I believe he has given a talk or two on the subject

[MaidservantX]

Science and religion are not separate bodies of knowledge in my mind. It's all the same thing to me.

I am convinced that I have a heavenly Father. I ask him a lot of questions on a lot of different subjects. I am always led to the answer, sometimes a little at a time until I can understand.

I am deeply interested in how the universe works. I can learn that in a lot of different places. I can learn it in the scriptures. I can learn it by reading articles out of the Discover (science) magazine. I can learn it by going out and looking up and the stars and thinking.

Like tomk implied . . . gaining more knowledge shouldn't have to be a question of whether your faith is being violated.

Just . . . ask your questions . . . keep studying . . . enjoy yourself.

[NeuroTypical]

Are the scriptures not meant literally?

Of course not - they're full of symbolism.

Did God really make the earth in six days?

Of course not.

LM

[Latter Days Guy]

Of course not - they're full of symbolism.

Of course not.

LM

So which bits are sybolic and which bits are true? Are the bits we cannot prove sybolic?

[NeuroTypical]

So which bits are sybolic and which bits are true? Are the bits we cannot prove sybolic?

A fair enough question. The answer is "I dunno". From what I can tell, we've got no clear direction on the matter, and a chapel full of saints on Sunday are free to have wide and diverse opinions.

Our church won't fill in all the gaps for us, makes us reach our own decisions about things, and allows for divergent opinions when revelation hasn't settled the matter.

Sometimes, some people find the floor falling out of their testimonies when this dawns on them. That's a shame.

LM

[MaidservantX]

Here is my humble opinion, only.

All of Genesis (specifically) is symbolic.

All of Genesis is true.

Symbolism and truth do not contradict each other. Symbolism is not defined as "fiction". In fact, in Genesis we have a symbolic presentation PRECISELY for the function of transmitting the truth.

Again, my opinion, I do not know how the few pages of the story of the creation of the world and the fall of adam can contain all of the details of a chronology or history of what actually happened. I don't think that Genesis claims to be a history or a scientific explanation (speaking of the creation and fall -- I know Genesis also has forefather stories). It's purpose is spiritual, so that the person who absorbs the symbolism and what the symbolism carries, will have a spiritual knowledge about our purpose in a mortal existence.

I do think that whatever science we do learn, either by discovery or revelation, will match up with what we read in Genesis. It will just be from a different angle, or a fleshing out of the details. I don't think contradiction is going to be possible if the actual truth has been found one way or the other. It isn't going to change the fact that the Genesis account is still the best and most amazing tool to impart an depthless spiritual knowledge with just a few words or brief "story". Genesis has been carefully crafted. I am not completely aware of how our Old Testament made its way to us from times past -- who wrote down what, where -- but I am of the opinion that people, such as Moses, who had the Genesis knowledge we presume -- would not have been thinking it was a scientific explanation and would wonder why we ever did (THAT would be the European Dark Ages for ya). Even another idea along that line -- Moses was Egyptian educated. His "scientific" ideas would likely have lined up with those of that cultures, and he would have had some information about astronomy that simply doesn't show up in Genesis . . . because it didn't need to be. On the other hand, as I said, Genesis is true and I believe will correspond with any science, if that science actually represents the working of the universe. I can find science in Genesis . . . I can find a lot of things in Genesis.

I will note that personally I am not convinced by theory of evolution at all. It is my personal opinion that it is a house of cards. This opinion of mine is NOT based on a reading of Genesis, since as many have realized that a reading of Genesis can read like a version of theory of e, no trouble.

I hope you are getting on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (search keyword "Creation"), and other resources to learn what (LDS) people have thought, studied, and had revealed on the matter of the creation and the fall and any science attendant to it. Have fun on the subject. I know I do!

[VisionOfLehi]

In LDS doctrinal teaching, it's very clear that the Earth was not created in 6 days, as suggested, and there is NO official stance on the actual age of the Earth. There's 2 or 3 big theories out there, and the Church just says "It's not important."

In my last Elder's Quorom session, there was in interesting comment.

Science seeks to find truth. It's all facts, truth.

The Gospel is the light, the Truth.

They're both truth. As we progress in our understanding of the Gospel, and of the universe through science, those understandings will eventually collide and fully mesh with one another.

[THIRDpersonviewer]

In LDS doctrinal teaching, it's very clear that the Earth was not created in 6 days, as suggested, and there is NO official stance on the actual age of the Earth. There's 2 or 3 big theories out there, and the Church just says "It's not important."

In my last Elder's Quorom session, there was in interesting comment.

Science seeks to find truth. It's all facts, truth.

The Gospel is the light, the Truth.

They're both truth. As we progress in our understanding of the Gospel, and of the universe through science, those understandings will eventually collide and fully mesh with one another.

Not entirely true from my point of view. Science is not truth. It is a process of gaining truth.(as you said) A method of learning by a process of man. Men are not perfect and are thus subject to the devil's influence. Truth can still be obtained through science, it is just way more difficult, and there can be errors in them.

For the record, Evolution does not account for a created terrestrial world, Fall of Adam, among others. So there may be aspects of truth in evolution, the assumptions and opinions taken by men are taken to an extreme, beyond what is really there.

There is truly no scientific evidence to support millions of years of changes and mutations in the world that lived in perfect harmony so that when humans came along, our changes to the world caused the extinction of other animals. Which supposively wasn't happening along the way.

When we look a religion perspective, there was no death or sickness in the world before the fall. So there could be no evolutionary process, prior to the Fall. Which fits in with the scientific improbability above.

I hope I made sense with this, I'm kinda tired.

The other method of learning is God. He has given the gift of the Holy Ghost based on faithfulness. We learn eternal truths from this source, and this source only.

[lostnfound]

Great question!

This happens to be hot buttom for me. And we speak all over the us on this subject. Did you know there is more evidence out their to support a literal 6 day creation then evolution? Did you know that the bible and science are compatiable? Have you ever read anything from Ken Ham?? Excellent source of information. I chose him because he is easy to understand for a beginner. But more secular scientist are admitting now that the earth is young rather then old..so this is crossing reglious lines.

Did you know that we can not find transitional forms in fossils. That there will be evolution in a species but not one species crossing into another. And why should we doubt that God can make the earth in 6 days? The longer I live the more I realize his power? If he can raise his son from the dead he can make the earth in 6 days. I know that is not a scientific argument for you..but it does show the sillynest of some people's logic in how BIG God is.

Investigate creationism verses evolution. You will be surprised at all the evidence that supports your bible. :)

[Moksha]

As St. Augustine said, "All truths are God's truths". The truths of science are holy too.

[ElementalMist]

Just my random 2 cents on the OT, but here is how I see it (No laughing at me Digi-kun).

Science is the process of finding truth and nothing in science is fact, only theory to be further studied.

The LDS faith is based upon becoming closer to god and understanding him through study, prayer and constant searching.

It is all a constant quest to see how everything works and the ways they fit together. I find all these puzzles to be intriguing, even if trying to banter out what ifs gets quite infuriating. After all, God doesn't reveal all and science cannot prove all, so we all get to infer in our own way according to what we learn. It all seems to mesh pretty well. :) To go with the original dilemma of how to deal with conflicting thoughts, I cannot give any specifics, heaven knows I am very lacking in answers and knowlege, just keep searching for truth. Sometimes it feels like fighting through a maelstrom, but giving up with just get you tossed around even worse.

[apple]

When I am faced with questions about science I often get the most resonable answer from BYU lectures and books.

It is always a pleasant surprise to find a LDS scientist perspective on a subject that confuses me.

[drjme]

Not entirely true from my point of view. Science is not truth. It is a process of gaining truth.(as you said) A method of learning by a process of man. Men are not perfect and are thus subject to the devil's influence. Truth can still be obtained through science, it is just way more difficult, and there can be errors in them.

For the record, Evolution does not account for a created terrestrial world, Fall of Adam, among others. So there may be aspects of truth in evolution, the assumptions and opinions taken by men are taken to an extreme, beyond what is really there.

There is truly no scientific evidence to support millions of years of changes and mutations in the world that lived in perfect harmony so that when humans came along, our changes to the world caused the extinction of other animals. Which supposively wasn't happening along the way.

When we look a religion perspective, there was no death or sickness in the world before the fall. So there could be no evolutionary process, prior to the Fall. Which fits in with the scientific improbability above.

I hope I made sense with this, I'm kinda tired.

The other method of learning is God. He has given the gift of the Holy Ghost based on faithfulness. We learn eternal truths from this source, and this source only.

Agreed, I personally call it true science (the process of gaining truth). Scientific theories that pass a few generations and then become 'fact' for some reason (eg evolution), are not true science. They are theories.

I view the creation as symbolic, or an 'overview' of the process that things were made, but to set in stone that Genesis is exactly how it happened, Is something I can leave open for the time being as it is something we cannot even comprehend or begin to understand, especially since the only account we have is an Inspired ancient man trying to explain his amazing visions the best he can.

Not that God can't create the earth in six days, But there are still too many questions left to answer to form solid opinion on the timeline of events etc.

IMHO true science is a minute amount of the knowledge of God, given to men.

[Guest tomk]

As I have drawn closer to the Lord, I have felt from Him that there is, or rather, need not be, any "division" or "seperation" between religion and science!! They are in harmony and compliment each other rather well!!! God does what He does through natural processes and laws. Science exposes the wonder of God's mind to us, I feel, by the discoveries that are made which speak to the wonder of creation!

[Hemidakota]

Six days is more life six periods of time according to Abraham [what time it took is still unknown].

[Guest tomk]

This was fun:

2 Pet. 3: 8

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

1 day God's time = 1000 years our time

1 year has 365 days

1 year in God's time would be 365,000 years of our time

6 days in God's time would be 6,000 years in our time

6,000 years in God's time would be 365,000 x 6,000 years in our time

which is 2,190,000,000

That's over 2 billion years.

The earth is aged at around 4.5 billion years.

[Hemidakota]

That is if the 'Earth' was here during the second creational periods; noting the obital length of time.