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I agree.

I have been in the church for awhile now and I am starting to notice some eerie patterns. If I judge someone, that affliction lands on me. If I fail to learn a lesson that lesson comes around again, and again. If I mutter to myself about a church program or duty, that duty becomes a calling or primary responsibility for me ( which is easier for my location because we collect callings like other people collect baseball cards).

@LiterateParakeet I haven't been able to reply for a few days due to login issues. I have been following though. I do think the discussion got off a bit. As to your broad point, I do understand, and even agree somewhat, though I think some of the details you take away are interpretive. For example, you claim the Savior would never do this or that, and I would reply, "How do you know?" But that's not really useful to debate until we clarify a bit what the point is being discussed. For some reason when people look at the idea or question of what would Jesus do, they generally seem to compare it to such a limited model of His existence -- specifically, His mortal mission of some 30 odd years. There's two problems with that. First, that's 30 years of eternity. As Vort alluded to, Christ is Jehovah -- the same who killed the firstborn children of the Egyptians. The idea that Jesus wouldn't kill because He healed the soldier's ear is a bit short-sighted methinks. But more importantly, the question cannot and should not be limited to what would Jesus do as Jesus on His specific mortal mission with His specific teachings, lessons, examples, etc., that were, as you point out, cultural, for His time, and very specific to why He was on earth. I agree that Jesus wouldn't have likely done those things you use as examples in His life with His mission in His time. But that's not the question. When we are asking ourselves what would Christ do, we are (or should be) asking ourselves what Christ would do if His mission, life, and times were ours -- and yet He was still Him. Joseph Smith's mission was not Christ's. Captain Moroni's mission was not Christ's. Nephi's mission was not Christ's. Just_a_Guy's mission is not Christ's. But if Christ's mission was to lead the restoration of the gospel in the latter days, defend the Nephites against the kingmen and the Lamanite armies, go with His family to the promised land and start a new nation, or live in modern times as a member of the church who had the obligation to provide for His family, how would He act, what choices would He make, etc. If I decide to open a restaurant and need to make the decision as to whether to serve alcohol or not, the question is not whether Christ in His time and in His role as the one who came to establish His gospel, atone for the sins of the world, and die on the cross to rise again in three days would have sold alcohol or not. The question is if Christ lived in my day, was a lay-member of the church who has taken covenants upon Himself, had to make a living to support His family, etc., would sell alcohol or not. Whereas I agree, also, that we still cannot "know" in every instance what choice Christ would make by reasoning it out, (though there are some things, I believe, which are obvious (and selling alcohol or not is not necessarily one of them)), we can know by the Holy Spirit, and can be guided in each of these instance. That is hardly fair.

I teach 2nd grade. I can't imagine the vast majority of 2nd graders needing this type of in-depth discussion. I still have a couple who can't even wander across the hall to the bathroom without getting lost, let alone worry about gender identity. That being said, 2nd graders are smarter than many give them credit for. Should these things be discussed? Sure, but age appropriateness is a thing and a thing that should be considered. What bothers me is the notion of going beyond answering a few questions or proactively presenting this information for age-appropriateness. Words are powerful. No, talking to your kid about gender identity probably won't make them change genders willy-nilly, in and of itself. But there is a culture that encourages this acceptance and even champions it far beyond the exceptions in unusual, critical cases.

My college roommate, back in college, confessed that while she had a testimony of the gospel she did not have one of Relief Society and found it a bunch of gossipy girls. Guess who was the next RS president?

Yes, but would JESUS draw lines in the sand... Oh wait, maybe He would!

It seems to me that much of what we have from Satan are his own claims about himself. Sure Satan has SAID he wears emblems of his power and priesthoods ... But what the actual extent of those powers are...? I still maintain that because the Lord has often called him the "father of lies" that THAT is his biggest power. That makes him sound like we should be able to easily overcome him. We just don't believe him, right? But if you think about the power of a lie to cause havoc and confusion, especially when people hold fast to lies and then (re)act accordingly, would such a thing not be a sort of antithesis to truth and true faith? Satan, whatever powers he's allowed to use, should not be underestimated in his power to LIE convincingly.

Well, I am now on facebook, and I have to say, I don't know what all the hoopla is for. They (facebook) appear to be obsessed with reality* and with helping identity thieves the world over. *And the boring, mundane, predictable sort, at that! Have no fear, I'm working hard to conquer their reality and fill my profile with entertaining fabrications.

I'm with Eowyn ... I think having a perfect body and living forever with our loved ones and friends are overrated. (May the Lord smite me and all of you with perfect health, give us everything and even more than we presently know we want, and may we never recover...)

Then scattered at Disneyland?

For a while, the position of Gospel Principles teacher in my parents' old ward kept going to someone who themselves needed to learn something by being in that position. For example, one teacher had trouble communicating in English (it's not her native language) and so by being the teacher she wound up getting quite a bit of experience expressing herself in English.

My understanding is similar. I have to wonder if, while people won't "sleep in death", if they won't die (just not for long enough to call it sleep). I have my suspicions that death is technically required. But: ...and I hear they have special shampoos and conditioners to help with this.

Oh man so true! And don't ever pray for patience! Now when I start judging someone, I feel this cold hand over my heart! I feel like I should duck before the next trial hits me!

"Role identity refers to an understanding of oneself in relation to others. In contrast, gender identity involves an understanding and accepting of one’s own gender, with little reference to others; one’s gender roles usually focus upon the social interaction associated with being male or female." Sometimes,(I'd even guess usually) issues like this spring from societal forces. The former-boy-now-girl might be confused and having that confusion exploited or molded by parents who think very differently about gender roles than we do. Other times, issues like this spring from biological forces. That link is full of pretty clearly-worded black-and-whiteness, and for 99.5% of us, it's good advice. There does exist that remaining half-a-percent of people born different - born with both a penis and a vagina, or something odd about their chromosomes, etc. Sometimes parents and doctors make a choice at birth, try to pick whatever genitalia seems the most pronounced or most developed, remove everything else, and hope it sticks. Sometimes that choice, as years go by, might seem to have been the wrong choice. For this half-a-percent of humans, understanding and accepting your own gender can be a pretty tall order. Let's be graphically clear here: Think about good, wholesome LDS families, healthy and loving. Think about families happily raising their children in good schools, surrounding their children with good peers, and everything is pretty hunky-dory. Consider the reality - more than one of these families is struggling with a kid who, for reasons that nobody can tell, just honestly down to the depths of their soul, know with every fiber of their being, that they are not the gender their parts tell them they are. There's no traumatic events, no abuse, this information has never reached their ears or eyes, there is no explanation. This springs totally from the kid. Such kids exist. Yes, there's plenty of cultural indoctrination going on, but there are also some kids who just struggle with this stuff despite a total lack of any identifiable reason or cause. Somewhere out there, is a mom or dad like you, trying to figure out how to love a kid they caught trying to mutilate themselves in the bathroom, because their parts are "wrong". Yes, people (even 2nd graders) in this situation tend to suffer horribly. Suicide attempts happen a lot with these folks. Like, in tragically high amounts. Like, 40% of transgender people attempt suicide at least once at some point in their lives. Wouldn't it be nice if some kid falling in this category had a good friend to rely on? Wouldn't it be nice if it was an LDS friend, who had been taught to genuinely love them?

I see your point, and I do not disagree. Not entirely, anyway. Our duty as parents is to hide many of the uglier realities from our children while they are yet tender and too immature to deal with such things. As others have pointed out, when the children come home with questions, you must deal with that immediately, no fiddling around or prevaricating. But often, vaccination is better than treatment. Since, in our filthy world, our children will be exposed to such ideas and trends -- even homeschooled children -- we need to equip them proactively with protection, answers, and ways of dealing with ambiguity and ignorance (their own and that of others). I have often wondered if I am polluting my pure, innocent children when I discuss such things with or in front of them, and I am sure that I have not always acted wisely in that regard. But I have chosen to be pretty proactive and forward about such matters. So far, it seems to have worked in our favor; I hope and pray it continues to do so.

Well, without being taught by you people (the parents), your 2nd graders will only know what others teach them. So get off your duffs and start teaching your children - because this issue is only getting more and more on their little radars. It isn't that hard to teach your 2nd grader about such things. Here you go: "Yep, you'll probably see or hear about folks who have a hard time just being a boy or a girl. Some people have boy or girl parts but might want to be called something different. Also, sometimes (and there aren't many folks like this), someone is born different, and it's hard to tell by looking at parts if they are boys or girls. Stuff like this can get really confusing. One thing to remember, is that people in these situations are almost always suffering. Their lives are usually very hard. I mean think about it - what would it be like if you, my son, were afraid you were actually a girl?* I think it might be kinda scary, don't you? Anyway, the whole thing can be very confusing. It's important to love people like Christ loved us. For these people, sometimes that just looks like saying hi to them in the hall, or just talking to them normally without freaking out about stuff. What do you think?" [Open discussion with 2nd grader ensues] Or you can do something else, like my WWII vet dad, and try to teach your kid "you can always spot them queeries, because they all have long hair, and earrings, and they sing songs with girl voices." True story. * - Some of you might be worried that saying stuff like this to a 2nd grader might somehow make your kids start doubting their gender identities. Please, let's try to be mature adults here. You don't turn your kid X by talking about X. That's the particular kind of frightened ignorance that made pope whatsisname afraid to look through Gallileo's telescope. You may discover your kid has been thinking about X, and that may worry or surprise you, but it's your job to deal with your own emotions - don't make your kid pay for them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2016/02/25/mizzou-professor-who-pushed-reporter-away-from-protesters-is-fired/ Click has officially been fired by Mizzou for what she did.

I dunno - I think these people, and these stories, have always been with us. Just never in news stories so readily accessible. Everyone starts out dumb, believes and says dumb things out of ignorance. We often internalize new information (sometimes by quietly learning, sometimes by public shaming), and pretty much nobody is as dumb as they were 10 years ago. I know I've believed a few doozies in my youth. There are various places where the sheltered and ignorant get some sense directed at them. Missions, college, and prison are quite often someone's first real experiences with real life. There are a ton of "my companion believed weird stuff" stories. Being humble and opening yourself up to other viewpoints is a heck of a lot less embarrassing than being a loud publicly shamed idiot, but both are ways to learn. Just for the love of pete, make sure loud morons have the opportunity to be publicly shamed if they won't take the quieter route.

I have determined that I should comment - not because I know that I am right, because I do not know for sure. As often as I have studied the Book of Abraham I have always come away with the impression that regardless of what I have thought I understand that in reality there is much more to this wondrous scripture that I do not understand. I have done extensive effort to do some kind of empirical mapping of Abraham to anything we know of empirically. I have not found this endeavor as helpful as I had hopped despite the fascinating prospects that Abraham is a likely candidate for the introduction of Pythagorean mathematics. When I encountered the OP of this thread that suggests, that the purpose of Abraham chapter 3 is a spiritual testament of the mission and purpose of Christ, I was struck with a profound epiphany. If Abraham refers to anything empirical, I am quite confident that there is very little importance to that empirical connection and that should we come to possess the empirical evidence of the actual star and or planet Kolob, thinking we have some actual proof, that in reality we will; in such pursuit miss seeing the forest for all the trees. Our obscure solar system is so obscure in our galaxy it is difficult to think we have any meaning here - and yet in all our brilliance we have managed to finely reach out from earth to outer reaches of our obscure solar system with the Voyager probe - an effort requiring something in the neighborhood of 30 years - yet we have only extended a few light minutes into a galaxy that is 100,000 light years across and that in reality our vast galaxy is only an obscure galaxy in a vast super-cluster of galaxies - I provided a picture of this super-cluster on the first page of this thread. One of the thoughts expressed in this thread concerns the purpose of the snake placed on a pole by Moses. The snake symbolizing Christ and his power to heal and save. I am quite convinced that any connection of this symbol to anything other than Christ (despite the fact of the importance of snake symbolism in ancient Egypt) is in essence out of context. It may be very fun to research snakes (both modern and ancient for both empirical and symbolism) but I submit that the effort will be limited. And this from the poster on this thread that loves and appreciates things empirical. I for one appreciate the effort to bring Christ into the understanding of Abraham - I think it provides insight to the mission and glory of Christ - both pre-earth existence and for our mortal probation as well as who we are currently standing as fallen beings that are "eternal" stars like the lights that shine their light everywhere in the sky at night. That we did not begin at birth but are specks of light that once were with G-d. So, for those that want to focus on the distant stars, because they are billions of years old and light years away - I as sorry but I think you have focused on that which is of lessor - much lessor importance. I would like to thank all those in this thread that see Christ and shared their insight - thank you!!! - you have had an impact with my understanding of Abraham - Thank you very much for this insight!