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It’s so late this year. I love to celebrate it the Thursday before Easter but it’s supposed to be celebrated beginning at sundown on Monday, April 22 thru sundown on Tuesday, April 30. What are yall doing? This will be our family’s 4th year to partake of the Seder.

I really have missed this group! My children keep having children, then they get married and you know the routine. With the grands and great grandchildren...there are 32 of the little critters with another 2 greats coming this summer! I read the highlights sent to my email, and inbetween dehydrating, found time to sit down and say hi!

I think we can agree on two things; 1) that the Adam-God theory was once taught in the church and 2) now it is not being taught in the church. I'm not sure, from those two facts, whether we can reliably come to the conclusion that it was a) taken away from the church and b) the reason for that presumed taking away was because of the wickedness of the church.

Since He's one of 'em, it would be sort of hard for Him to be there without Him present...

As a matter of mechanics, how do you think the “thus-switch-the-Lord” revelations in the D&C (and for that matter, the rest of canon) were transmitted to their recipients? Dream? Waking Vision? Physical material visitation of a divine being? Audible voice? Trance? Specific words coming to to the recipient’s mind? A image coming to the recipient’s mind, which the recipient then had to articulate in his own words? Something else? Were *all* the “thus-saith-the-Lord” revelations in our canon transmitted through the same method? Are you sure? How do you know? Oh, and on a completely unrelated tangent: what do you think of Denver Snuffer and John Pontius/Thom Harrison?

For the sake of argument, let us pretend for a moment that you are right. The Church membership is less spiritually robust than in past generations, have turned their back on certain elements of their covenants, and therefore have had some of the light and truth in their doctrines, practices, and temple covenants taken away by divine decree. What would you have us do? I mean, repent, of course—but that would be true in any case. What would you, Maverick, have us TH participants do? Should we contact the First Presidency and express our displeasure? Should we chain ourselves to the gates of the Seattle temple to show our unhappiness with the direction things are going? Should we, I don't know, get on public message boards and broadcast to all who will hear how the Church is drifting into apostasy and forgetting its covenant roots? Should we go all Jana Riess and start publishing as publicly as possible our displeasure, unrest, and rebellion against such things? Or should we perhaps sustain our leaders in their challenges during these difficult times? Should we rather bear fervent testimony of the truthfulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, of the reality of the restoration of Priesthood keys, and of the existence of the kingdom of heaven right here on Earth, with Christ Himself at the head and His chosen apostles leading and administering? I'm trying to figure out what it is you (Maverick) hope to accomplish in spreading your warning of wickedness and spiritual slothfulness among the Saints. As a result of the dire warnings given us by you, we should immediately do—what?

We got another one. My wife was following him prior to his baptism. He loved the temple open houses. Our clear communication. And Robins (the birds).

What happened was that when Filmation was about to ship He-Man out the door they realized that the violence in each episode was on a rather higher level than what kids' shows of the era normally contained. As a result, they devised the PSA bit at the end of each episode in order to put the violence in some sort of context as part of a larger moral bit. This "halo effect" concept caught on, and soon a number of cartoons were doing some sort of PSA or educational segment at the end of each episode. These initially faded away around the end of the 1980s as most of the shows that did these segments got cancelled, but briefly reappeared in the mid-1990s when Congress passed laws requiring that all over-the-air broadcast television stations had to air three hours of "educational and informative" kids' programming a week as stations used these segments to justify tagging whatever show they were attached to as E/I compliant. Nowadays they're more of a meme than anything else, although there are G. I. Joe fans who are open to the idea of the PSAs returning at the end of future content.

While I believe this particular comment was a troll, I'm old and experienced enough to avoid claiming that no one is really that stupid.

The Berenstein Bears was a staple of my childhood, and my kids' as well. Honest look at family life, dealt with real issues. Before congress got involved and made GI Joe devote a portion of each episode to some stupid messaging directed at how kids shouldn't bully but should brush teeth or whatever.

I only brought up Adam-God in this particular discussion because I was pressed to provide a tangible example of something that supports the possibility that changed teachings in the church can be due to God taking away light and truth from the church because the majority of the members couldn’t handle it. In a general sense Adam-God is important to me personally because I believe in searching out and embracing all truth. The Adam-God doctrine was taught as truth and a mystery of God by the president of the church for 25 years from the pulpit in General Conference, in priesthood meetings, and in the temple. To me this makes it significant.

And, to top it off, Big Brother starts in the summer and I’m glued to that show. Been a fan since 2001!

The "bar" has a footnote to Moroni 10. I noted that the "bar" (from Moroni 10) used in conjunction with "Eternal Judge" indicates that the "bar" spoken of is about the final judgement. Maybe, maybe not. I was thinking of "the bar" that is used in modern settings for the inner area in the courtroom for the judge and lawyers. So, I could see this referring to God as the ultimate judge. Therefore, we meet at his bar. The problem is that this usage of the word "bar" is of modern origin. It was far later than Moroni, and certainly later than Jacob. So, why is this "bar" used in these verses? It is easy enough to say that these were simply the best modern language equivalents to ancient figures of speech. And it could be. But I just don't feel right about it. Another answer didn't occur to me until I re-read the words: This isn't the bar of a modern courtroom. This is a scepter, either of the Egyptian Pharaoh or a Judge of Israel (or possibly some combination of the two). I prefer that dual symbolism of the Egyptian Pharaohs. The flail and scepter were double-dual symbols. The flail could punish disobedient servants, or it could be used to thresh wheat, thus providing for the people. The shepherd's crook was either a way to STRIKE down a criminal, or to bring a repentant soul into the fold. To say that the bar (staff, rod, etc.) was "pleasing", and then say that is striketh fear and dread, would indicate a dual symbol.

If the enemy attacks on the Sabbath, you defend yourselves on the Sabbath. Israel should not be waiting until May to respond to such aggressions.

Why limit the choice to 2? How about simple fallibility, misunderstanding and miscommunication, or practice with councils and group revelation and continuing revelation in council, or expediency in the Lord changing priorities and emphasis to best convey His plan of redemption?

I second what @Maverick said. I think part of the atonement required Jesus to endure the suffering in part without any external support. That's why he could make the claim "I have tread the winepress alone." Some general authorities have expressed similar opinions. I have always liked this explanation by Jeffrey R Holland: "Now I speak very carefully, even reverently, of what may have been the most difficult moment in all of this solitary journey to Atonement. I speak of those final moments for which Jesus must have been prepared intellectually and physically but which He may not have fully anticipated emotionally and spiritually—that concluding descent into the paralyzing despair of divine withdrawal when He cries in ultimate loneliness, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” 16 Matthew 27:46 emphasis added.] The loss of mortal support He had anticipated, but apparently He had not comprehended this. Had He not said to His disciples, “Behold, the hour … is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me” and “The Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him”? 17 John 16:32 8:29 With all the conviction of my soul I testify that He did please His Father perfectly and that a perfect Father did not forsake His Son in that hour. Indeed, it is my personal belief that in all of Christ’s mortal ministry the Father may never have been closer to His Son than in these agonizing final moments of suffering. Nevertheless, that the supreme sacrifice of His Son might be as complete as it was voluntary and solitary, the Father briefly withdrew from Jesus the comfort of His Spirit, the support of His personal presence. It was required, indeed it was central to the significance of the Atonement, that this perfect Son who had never spoken ill nor done wrong nor touched an unclean thing had to know how the rest of humankind—us, all of us—would feel when we did commit such sins. For His Atonement to be infinite and eternal, He had to feel what it was like to die not only physically but spiritually, to sense what it was like to have the divine Spirit withdraw, leaving one feeling totally, abjectly, hopelessly alone."

Matthew and Mark both record the following statement by Jesus Christ while he hung suffering on the cross: 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? I believe this shows that his Father in Heaven had left him to suffer alone without his support, at least for this part of the atonement.

Today, I have been given the opportunity to bear a short 3 Minute testimony in our Branch Conference. (This is Branch a organized for the local prisons)... You will realize someday the importance of your calling to God and the heavens. Members would be clamoring to volunteer if they knew the blessings that will come to those who minister to the prisoner. Heavenly Father loves us with a love that we can barely even conceive of. As the Lord's newest Apostle, Elder Patrick Kearon, said, and as I can personally witness, “God is in relentless pursuit of you. He “wants all of His children to choose to return to Him,” and He employs every possible measure to bring you back.” Jesus Christ is our Messiah, Redeemer, and King. He voluntarily suffered, bled, and died so that we could repent and we receive forgiveness. He is our only hope of forgiveness, salvation, and exaltation. By His Resurrection all of God's children will gain immortality. He is the Light and Life of this world and all creation. He is creation's only hope. Without Him all would be darkness and chaos. He is coming again soon to establish His Kingdom of Peace. Joseph Smith holds the keys of, and is the head of this, the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times and those keys will never be taken from him- “Forever and ever the keys he will hold!”. He is the Servant of the Lord in the parable of the Vineyard. He will stand again on the earth to lead forth in the redemption of Zion- “Millions shall know Brother Joseph again!”. The Lord gave me a testimony of the calling of Joseph Smith Jr. at 16, and the all devils in hell haven't been able to, and never will, take that witness from me! The Book of Mormon is a real history, of real people, that really lived. It contains the fullness of the Gospel (Good News) of Jesus Christ. It is the keystone of my religion. It is my Latter-day survival guide. I have, and you will, come closer to God by abiding by it's precepts than any other Book. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's Church. It was established through the ministry of angels. Only in it are found the keys of salvation and eternal life. As President Nelson recently said, “no other organization can and will influence your life after death.” Russell Marion Nelson is the Lord's Presiding High Priest to direct His work in these days. He is the prophet, seer, and revelator to the Church and the world. If we obey the counsel given through him we will receive the power to endure and survive the sorrows that are coming upon the earth, and receive a fullness of joy in the mansions of our Eternal Parents.

If using the "voice of the Lord" in recording revelations signals the wording is accurate and precise, then does that mean Joseph Smith was in error when he edited his revelations? I stated exactly what I wanted to suggest with my questions. Just what exactly are your assumptions about the nature of revelation and the transmission of revelations to the membership. I think your above statement about accuracy and precision has uncovered one of them. Please continue. I appreciate this clarification about seeking confirmation, but I'm still not following the first part. What is it about "The Lord said, 'call Dallin H. Oaks'" that instills more confidence than "The Lord instructed me to call Dallin H. Oaks"?

I totally agree with you that toxic masculinity exists, but it’s more silly than destructive. Andrew Tate and his followers are too ridiculous to be taken seriously.

It is important to understand that not all that is spiritual or is revelation or that leaders have received for the people needs be or should be recorded in what is sometimes called the “standard” works of scripture. In the Book or Mormon the Book of Jacob chapter 1 verses 2 though verse 6 (more if one intends to maintain the context) Jacob is commanded what to wright as scripture. What Jacob commits to scripture is not all what was revealed to the Prophets of his day. Note in verse 5 that Jacob indicates that there were things revealed concerning things that would happen to the people that were not included for preserved scripture. Note what is not included in scripture was still revelation and important to the people. Every 6 months the prophets and seers of our generation extend to the people of the Church and world things revealed and commanded concerning the next 6 months to the next Conference. Often in Stake or regional conferences a sustained prophet and seer may attend to make known revelations received concerning those that are intended to listen. The most important thing to understand is that all that G-d commands or reveals is recorded in scripture. The Traveler

Actually, all you have is some man saying the words, "thus saith the Lord". Whether he speaks those words or any other words, it would still be up to you to go to the Spirit and gain a testimony regarding whether the words are of the Lord. I mean, I could quite easily say, "Thus saith the Lord, fountain pens are sacred writing implements and all others are an abomination before me." Doesn't mean the Lord actually said that. (Though He might have... ) If you know that light and truth have been taken from the Church, then you must also know what that light and truth are. So please give an example of one of these truths or deeper doctrines that has been taken away. What then, is this:

I remember the He-Man/She-Rah cartoons where at the end of each episode the moral lesson would be pointed out. It was usually something like "Don't kick the bad guy when he's down, even if he is a jerk" or "you won't have your grandparents forever ever, so appreciate them while you can". Not bad really, for a franchise that was mostly about selling plastic junk.

GI Joe was my thing and I still collect the comics. I don’t like the “Now I know” socially responsible stuff either. I found it silly, even as a kid.

It's actually quite fascinating and was a major draw for me towards fundamentalism during my wilderness journey.

It sounds like your journey through Church history has been quite a rollercoaster of emotions, from bitterness to reconciliation. It's heartening to hear that the bitterness between your religious institutions has softened over time, allowing for collaboration and support in preserving historical artifacts. It seems like a hopeful step towards unity and mutual respect among believers. Thank you!

I discovered one I admittedly haven't finished yet, but my husband did and says it's awesome, despite being cancelled after the first season. Night Sky. Sissy Spacek and J. K. Simmons happen to have a tunnel in their shed that leads to another planet. And there's weird cultish secret societies and the tragic realities of aging.

Party's on...

VID_20240408_133952.mp4

Well, Israel has been attacking targets in Iran for a lot of decades. As well as killing Iranian targets in other countries for decades. There's a longer history than even this article mentions: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/14/world/middleeast/iran-attacks-israel-history.html Or even this one-sided history from Al Jazeera. The Wiki article does it better justice. I'm guessing Israel figures this round of tit-for-tat is over. "We finally hit them hard enough, and publicly enough, that they had to give their first actual response launched from their own country. And it was a pretty pathetic response." Although you read the comments section of the IDF twitter feed, and you'd think it's kicking off armageddon, end times, apocalypse, millennium, and the 2nd coming, all rolled into one. That video of missiles in the background of the dome of the rock, is really riling up the sign-seekers from 3 different world's faiths.

I like to think that I'm too well-mannered to laugh at the views and opinions of others, but sometimes the temptation arises. To think that God would allow His prophet to teach false doctrine about His character and nature for 25 years, especially after he and His Son appeared in person to Joseph Smith - well that's an example of when I'm tempted. To quote again from a previously quoted from talk: Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray. President Wilford Woodruff stated: “I say to Israel, The Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of the Church to lead you astray. It is not in the program. It is not in the mind of God.” (The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, selected by G. Homer Durham [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1946], pp. 212-213.) If Brigham Young did indeed teach the Adam-God theory - and I have never looked into the matter myself, and nor do I intend to because it is so unimportant - and God allowed him to continue teaching this, I would be inclined to accept that there must be some truth to it. However, I say this from the position of one who has never looked at the idea or its associated teachings.

Listening to Elder Holland's talk, I wonder how much longer he will be with us. His mortal years may be nearing an end. I doubt I have more than 35 years left in my life before I pass on to the spirit world. Hopefully I can join the saints and prophets in paradise to sing praises to the Holy LORD God.

No, I am looking for you to test your various hypotheses with documented instances and occurrences, not bias, opinion and possibilities. It might help if you list your questions with the facts you have gathered that can be used to answer them. I've asked for this before ( Posted Friday at 06:29 PM ) and you insisted a hypothesis was a "textbook example" -- which are far from the same things. If you don't understand the distinction, as indicated in the subsequent exchanges, maybe we can flesh that out, though with a little work you can get up speed on your own. Thank you.

For Iran to say that the matter is "concluded" pretty well tells me that Iran won't do anything further. They've made a show of force, and they don't want to do anything else lest Russia and China not protect them against the retaliation.

Just got home this morning from my own eclipse trip to central Tx (hill country). Clouds cleared at just the right moment to capture this shot with my telescope. I arrived a few days early, and left a few days later, so I never had to fight any traffic.

This question was definitively answered in the April 2024 General Conference by Elder Holland and Elder Dushku.

There hasn’t been an official statement on Adam-God in over 40 years to my knowledge. And the last statements that were made long ago contradicted what Brigham Young taught about it.

A bit of saber rattling going on.

Indeed. In reviewing your answer, I didn't see any response to the question of what it is we're supposed to do, which is why I asked again.

This system will allow you to classify each specimen into its correct genus and species. 1. If it looks like Paul McCartney then it's Paul McCartney. 2. If it has small round tinted glasses and you can imagine it standing next to a Japanese woman with long dark hair, and it looks like John Lennon then it's John Lennon. 3. If its playing the drums then the chances are it's Ringo. 4. If it doesn't fit any of the above categories then you can safely label it George Harrison. Another minute wasted with Jamie123! 😝

In the Journal of Discourses talk I read last night Brigham says he is going to start letting people settle were they want because they weren't listening to him anyways when he would tell them where to settle. Based on a talk I listened to on FAIR it seems he started backing off on going deeper in to Adam-God because people didn't want to listen- which is unfortunate because we are left with this confusion about what exactly WAS Brigham trying to teach?

But your proposition, "If what Brigham Young taught was true..." is still a hypothesis, and not presented an example of an documented event or a condition, as textbooks require. We need something more substantial. Jesus and Eder Oaks taught about the Lord permitting divorce without the stain of immorality as an exception to the higher law because of the hardness of our hearts (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/matt/19?lang=eng&id=8-9#p8). https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2007/05/divorce?lang=eng. This is an example of a higher light and truth being excepted or excused, but not taken away. You need to identify a stronger example of a time when a higher law was rescinded by the Lord because of the wickedness or lack of faith among a threshold number of saints or the membership at large. An example from the D&C is the command to build the Jackson County temple was rescinded: (see D&C 124, but also101, 103). Try to identify an example like that which reflects your concerns. What other revelation or commandment has been rescinded because the members couldn't handle it? It needs to be something more substantial than policies, procedures and practices.

There are numerous debates in our society about the need to eradicate (as much as possible) toxic masculinity. Some would hint that it does not really exist while others are certain that it is standard practice though much of our society. I would add to all this my personal opinion that toxic masculinity does indeed exist and that it is a growing problem in our society. First, I would define toxic masculinity as those of that are biologically of male gender that torment and dominate those that are biologically of the female gender, forcing them to be shamed by the masculine dominance over them. What is odd to me is that many that argue about the problem of toxic masculinity are unable to recognize the very worst cases of it. As near as I can determine every definition of toxic masculinity is manifested by masculinity dominating in female (feminine) sports. From depriving women (the biological feminine) from achieving recognition for their athletic achievements to the sexual harassment in the locker rooms where the toxic masculine and their supporters are forcing women to be unwillingly required to undress naked in front of them – often themselves (the toxic masculine) also displaying themselves naked forcibly before women. I cannot think of a greater display of toxic masculinity that what is being perpetrated by certain masculine individuals and their supports in the arena of women sports. The Traveler

Pretty wild isn’t. We live in some crazy times.

He was very clearly and explicitly referring to any teaching that would preclude the restoration of the Priesthood to all worthy men and the extension of the blessings of the temple to all worthy people. Are you referring to something else?

When the Temple priests in ancient Israel were in error the people still had to take their sacrifices to them at the Temple. That is a pattern. Even *if* the general leadership is in error, they have the keys of the kingdom and are the gatekeepers of the House of the Lord. Our job is to stay recommend worthy and redeem our dead- the Lord will deal with His leaders *if* necessary. Don't be a latter-day Uzzah.

Alma 10:3 And Aminadi was a descendant of Nephi, who was the son of Lehi, who came out of the land of Jerusalem, who was a descendant of Manasseh, who was the son of Joseph who was sold into Egypt by the hands of his brethren. “The Prophet Joseph informed us that the record of Lehi, was contained on the 116 pages that were first translated and subsequently stolen, and of which an abridgment is given us in the first book of Nephi, which is the record of Nephi individually, he himself being of the lineage of Manasseh; but that Ishmael was of the lineage of Ephraim, and that his sons married into Lehi's family, and Lehi's sons married Ishmael's daughters... “ (Erastus Snow, JD 23:184)

I have a similar experience to @mikbone's. Endless joy and love for scriptures and restoration history, endless blessings coming from accepting the truth claims and delving into the work, and a relatively small list of anecdotes where individual LDS, or maybe a small group or a ward, do stupid or horrible or even downright evil things. The list can't hold a candle to the greatness of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

Decided it warrants a quote: Be the ship.

You're probably a Mormon if you feel awkward when you don't start and end every meeting with a prayer.