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mordorbund

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Posts posted by mordorbund

  4. Book of Mormon Reading Group: 11 Sep - 17 Sep 2023 (1 Nephi 6 - 1 Nephi 18)

    in Book of Mormon

    Posted

    On 9/15/2023 at 5:50 PM, Jamie123 said:

    The Liahona has always been a source of fascination for me. It seems to be an artifact of sorts, but it pops up from nowhere (almost like a gift from Santa), with no indication of who made it. Did God make it himself? Or was it perhaps the work of some earlier civilization? It has two spindles, one of which indicates the way to go - rather like the "cloud by day, fire by night" - but how did they know this? (There's no mention of any note being left with the device. Maybe it was in one of the messages that appeared on the Liahona.) It's not even called "the liahona" in the text - I believe that word only appears much later.

    Question: what did the other spindle do? I read somewhere that it acted as an ordinary compass needle, but is this based on anything in the book?

    https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/by-small-means-rethinking-the-liahona/

    The authors of this article think the liahona may have been an astrolabe given as dowry after the two families joined through marriage.

  8. Any love for this document?

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    On 8/30/2023 at 7:15 PM, prisonchaplain said:

    Let me start by noting @Traveler's joining of the doctrine of agency (contrasted with free will) and that of pre-existence. He appears to say that without pre-existence agency could not be understood as the church teaches it. I'd like to hear more if others have thoughts on how closely these two teachings mingle.

    I don't know that a premortal existence is necessary for understanding agency, except for the reasoning that @Vort provides: if every part of us, including our will, was created by God then ultimately He is culpable; if we are to bear some responsibility for our choices then there must be something outside of God's creation.

    That said, for Latter-day Saints agency is associated with the pre-earth life since that was a core motivation for the War in Heaven. This is from Moses 4: 1-4 (Joseph Smith's inspired translation of the Bible. This excerpt included a revelation in which Joseph was taught that the creation account in Genesis was given to Moses via revelation)

    Quote

    1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.

    2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.

    3 Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

    4 And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice.

    And in Doctrine and Covenants 29:36-40 it says that the fallen angels employed their agency in their fall. It also states that Adam's fall was a catalyst for his exercise of agency (and by extension, ours as well).

    Quote

    And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

    37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;

    38 And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell.

    39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet—

    40 Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation.

    One part I have not seen Latter-day Saints grapple with is the meaning of this phrase "the agency of man, which I ... had given him" from Moses 4. A similar notion is shown in Moses 7:32. 

    Quote

    32 The Lord said unto Enoch: Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency;

    I don't believe I've heard the mechanics of God granting agency to man (In fact, I don't usually hear agency spoken of in such a manner). I have a few thoughts on it, but nothing well-formed.

  9. The Stickman Thread

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    14 hours ago, zil2 said:

    I have no memory of this, but apparently when I was very little I drew a bunch of flowers on the wall of my bedroom with crayons.  When Mom found me and asked me - no doubt furiously - what I was doing, I reportedly said, "I wanted pretty pictures on my wall." :D Seems perfectly logical course of action to me...)

    Oh sure, mom can glue entire rolls of pictures to the wall, but I color one small patch……

  12. Waffle House Index

    in Current Events

    Posted

    7 hours ago, Vort said:

    Come to my house on Sunday afternoon. Every other week, we eat a Sunday brunch of waffles and sausages. Good waffles, too. If you come on non-waffle Sunday, we have pancakes and bacon, so it's all good.

    7 hours ago, zil2 said:

    If, one Sunday, I show up on your doorstep with a kitten in my arms, you have only yourself to blame! ;)

    I don't think it's gotten that dire yet. Just bring syrup.

  14. Change in Language?

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    I don't have anything meaningful to contribute, but I have found a way to spice up the current discussion:

    17 hours ago, Carborendum said:

    It is that he's having trouble with some Biblical words

    He's having trouble with words, in the biblical sense.

    17 hours ago, Carborendum said:

    Do you have knowledge of Biblical Russian?

    Do you have knowledge of Russian, biblically speaking?

     

  19. Baptism required for all kingdoms

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Carborendum said:

    Well, there does seem to be a difference between the OP and the quote you offered.

    These two are not talking about the same thing.

    I noticed the same thing. That's why I asked if that was the quote Rose was referencing. I can see how 

    On 8/9/2023 at 8:34 AM, mordorbund said:

    the dead will hear the voice of the servants of God in the spirit-world, and they cannot come forth in the morning of the [first] resurrection, unless certain ordinances are performed

    can be remembered as 

    On 7/31/2023 at 11:22 PM, roseofsharon said:

    no one can leave the spirit world before having all ordinances performed according to WW

     

  20. Magic AI plan to create bus route fails miserably

    in Current Events

    Posted

    Before reading the friendly article, I figured this was probably a testing failure — as in a lack of testing. If the AI creates the model it should also have a way to test the model. You can do a base-level evaluation by having it validate the previous system and also include a fail model to see if it’s passing everything.

    The other testing failure is running the buses on the route and using that feedback. I lived in one place where you would see the buses running a week or two before school started. I lived in another place where you didn’t see a bus until the first day of school.

    I read the article, and the district seems confident that the new routes will work. They only tried the routes two days before school started. Either concerns weren’t raised or they were ignored. Might as well add that as another point of failure. Also, other articles may have mentioned AI, but this article only mentions algorithms (which is a really weak AI under some definitions).

    I suspect that the reason the superintendent didn’t throw the tech company under the bus because it delivered on exactly what was asked — something like bus routes run only once (previous routes used multiple trips with late batches) with the number of drivers they currently have.

  22. The Atonement: All for All (April 2004)

    in General Conference

    Posted

    5 hours ago, zil2 said:

    So annoying! :) (speaking of garden weeds)

    But back to the talk - it really was exceptional, IMO.  These were the bits that caused me to go read the whole thing:

     

    That “almost” is a powerful contrast. When he made the first statement I did a bit of a double take because I know Elder Hafen understands grace and the atonement. Then he provided the missing half of the equation and I had to do a double take again because the same term was suddenly sufficient and I had to re-listen to hear the pivot.

    It’s a good explanation of one of my thoughts of the Ether 12:27 classic:

    Quote

    my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

    “My grace is sufficient.” It’s Gabriel’s horn. There’s an infinite volume for you to fill and you’re just a finite bucket of paste. Boast of your bucket-ness or some other nonsense quality and you’ll never get the job done. Humble yourself flat and you’ll be stretched in ways you never imagined possible.

  23. The Atonement: All for All (April 2004)

    in General Conference

    Posted

    On 8/1/2023 at 1:33 PM, zil2 said:

    Tripped over this today and just wanted to say that it would be well worth your time to revisit it (or visit it for the first time).

    https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2004/04/the-atonement-all-for-all?lang=eng

    My own work in my patio garden has convinced me that the garden setting (not a city, and not a wilderness) of the Fall was intentional. I loved this imagery:

    Quote

    We grow in two ways—removing negative weeds and cultivating positive flowers. The Savior’s grace blesses both parts—if we do our part. First and repeatedly we must uproot the weeds of sin and bad choices. It isn’t enough just to mow the weeds. Yank them out by the roots, repenting fully to satisfy the conditions of mercy. But being forgiven is only part of our growth. We are not just paying a debt. Our purpose is to become celestial beings. So once we’ve cleared our heartland, we must continually plant, weed, and nourish the seeds of divine qualities. And then as our sweat and discipline stretch us to meet His gifts, “the flow’rs of grace appear,”9 like hope and meekness. Even a tree of life can take root in this heart-garden, bearing fruit so sweet that it lightens all our burdens “through the joy of his Son.”10 And when the flower of charity blooms here, we will love others with the power of Christ’s own love.

     

  24. Baptism required for all kingdoms

    in LDS Gospel Discussion

    Posted

    On 7/31/2023 at 11:22 PM, roseofsharon said:

     

    There is an old RS PH meeting manual on Wilford Woodruff and his teachings.  Remember those old manuals with the teachings of the prophets?  Well the Wilford Woodruff manual quoted him saying that no one can leave the spirit world before having all ordinances performed according to WW.  This is one reason the resurrection goes on throughout the millennium. 

    If you think about it,  everyone who sided with and supported Jehovah as the Son of God and Savior of the World should have an equal chance at hearing the plan of salvation and walking by faith,  whether  in this life or the next.  They should all have an equal chance to make covenants with the Lord whether in this life or the next.  King David fell from his exaltation because of the murder of Uriah and will have to suffer for that.  Nevertheless,  he still was a candidate for repentance on many other things and kept covenant as best he could regardless. 

     

    Was this the quote, or is it a different one?

    Quote

    It is our duty to rise up and build these Temples. I look upon this portion of our ministry as a mission of as much importance as preaching to the living; the dead will hear the voice of the servants of God in the spirit-world, and they cannot come forth in the morning of the [first] resurrection, unless certain ordinances are performed, for and in their behalf, in Temples built to the name of God. … Somebody has got to redeem them, by performing such ordinances for them in the flesh as they cannot attend to themselves in the spirit, and in order that this work may be done, we must have temples in which to do it; and what I wish to say to you, my brethren and sisters, is that the God of heaven requires us to rise up and build them, that the work of redemption may be hastened. Our reward will meet us when we go behind the veil. …

    I found it here.