Laniston

Miracles aren't events that break the laws of the universe. They are events that happen for our good, sometimes unexplainable, but not always. Just because a miracle has a "real" explanation doesn't mean it isn't a miracle. Sure, maybe some of the wonder is lost when you learn about a law of physics or medicine that explains an event, but that doesn't change what happened. I'm pretty badly nearsighted. If I were alive in the first century I'd probably be considered blind. My vision isn't dark, but I couldn't even read what I'm typing right now if it weren't for my glasses. (I sometimes think that this is why Christ healed some blind people differently than others. Astigmatism (spelling is hard...) is a different kind of blindness than someone who literally can't perceive light.Actually, while I am not legally blind, without corrective lenses I wouldn't be able to drive, read anything not a half foot in front of me, recognize people by looking at them, etc. So while my "blindness" isn't "cured" by divine power, God gifted the people of my day with the intelligence to make lenses that I wear and with them on I have better than 20/20 vision. That it is a physical and easily explainable solution (to us, but imagine how prescription glasses to a person like me in 50 AD would be like) is beside the fact that while I am physically "blind" I am able to see.

I know something that has created barriers for me has been differences in vocabulary. Particularly words which others use but mean different things. For example, I got sucked into an unfortunate argument with a woman and it wasn't until the latter end when we both realized that our definition of the word creation or created was different. Her idea of the creation of a person included the belief that a person's existence has a set beginning which happens when they are born on this earth. Before our earthly incarnation to her we did not exist, just God did. She had been asking about this idea of Satan and Christ being brothers - which to me is of little concern. I believe in a pre-existence, and I believe that pre-existence includes myself and the woman I was talking with. It was a gigantic family of countless numbers of people, but in the framework of no pre-existence, and a trinitarian view of God, that Satan too existed before could be a very strange and frightening idea. Now sadly, I didn't get this and my sun-addled brain and momentary lack of spiritual help thanks to a regrettable fall into contention kept me from understanding this good woman. (until later and then I was kicking myself) In our Preach my Gospel missionary manual it talks about vocabulary and that ours is unique and needs explaining. I generally assumed before that it meant stuff like all our acronyms and the things that get announced in Sacrament meeting during the business part. Like this or that meeting, or this or that calling (even this word - generally worded as ministry in other churches). But really, Faith can be different. It can be different between LDS members. Charity, priesthood, authority, baptism, prophet, evangelist, miracle, creation, salvation, scripture, revelation, angel, etc. can have totally different meanings between various Christian faiths. Failing to realize this, as I have done too many times, can lead to confusion.

On one hand it's nice, but I thought we were supposed to practice a Christian charity of not doing service for the sake of publicity. This feels very much like secular charity.

I always think about Abinidi when this subject of judgement is being discussed. Abinidi warns the citizens of the city Nephi-Lehi that their current state of wickedness has earned them the displeasure of God and that negative consequences will result if they don't repent and turn back to God. The first time he tells the people this they react with anger and take offense. When the king (Noah) gets word of what Abinidi was saying he reacts this way: Mosiah 11:27 27 Now when king Noah had heard of the words which Abinadi had spoken unto the people, he was also wroth; and he said: Who is Abinadi, that I and my people should be judged of him, or who is the Lord, that shall bring upon my people such great affliction? Or in other words: What gives him the right to be so judgmental? 2 years later Abinidi returns to try again. (employing a disguise to get into the city since these people want to kill him after the first attempt. Of course the first words recorded are him announcing he's Abinidi so... not a man of stealth.) He delivers the same message as before except much more urgently. The people in response arrest Abinidi and take him to King Noah. The ordinary, everyday, people are doing this. In fact if it weren't for these people or Noah's priests Abinidi probably wouldn't have been martyred, as is what happened. But the people again say an interesting thing when protesting Abinidi before King Noah. Mosiah 12:13-14 13 And now, O king, what great evil hast thou done, or what great sins have thy people committed, that we should be condemned of God or judged of this man? 14 And now, O king, behold, we are guiltless, and thou, O king, hast not sinned; therefore, this man has lied concerning you, and he has prophesied in vain. Again, Abinidi is being judgmental of us. He doesn't really know us. We're good people. Well was Abinidi being judgmental in calling out the wicked behaviour of this King and the citizens of the city? As an LDS person I would say no because I believe Abinidi to be a prophet who was commanded by the God who loves these people to call them to repentance. Someone else might agree with the opinion of the people and say Abinidi had no right to call them to repentance. "People are allowed to believe whatever they like and Abinidi has no business to tell them what's right or wrong.", some might argue. That's how it goes today and that's apparently nothing new. Seems to me the difference between a person being judgmental or not can very much be in the perspective of the recipient. In the case of Abinidi the people were so offended that they burned him alive. Between King Noah and Abinidi it was Abinidi who was on the people's side and had their best interests in mind, and they killed him for it.

From the Brigham Young manual, chapter on the spirit world "The brightness and glory of the next apartment is inexpressible. It is not encumbered so that when we advance in years we have to be stubbing along and be careful lest we fall down. We see our youth, even, frequently stubbing their toes and falling down. But yonder, how different! They move with ease and like lightning. If we want to visit Jerusalem, or this, that, or the other place—and I presume we will be permitted if we desire—there we are, looking at its streets. If we want to behold Jerusalem as it was in the days of the Savior; or if we want to see the Garden of Eden as it was when created, there we are, and we see it as it existed spiritually, for it was created first spiritually and then temporally, and spiritually it still remains. And when there we may behold the earth as at the dawn of creation, or we may visit any city we please that exists upon its surface. If we wish to understand how they are living here on these western islands, or in China, we are there" Seems like the place to be for a man filled with curiosity like Mr. Nimoy

Wendigo

Butter doesn't melt the same on burnt toast. and if the butter doesn't melt properly the brown sugar won't taste right and what good is your cinammon sugar toast then? only fit to be trodden under the foot of man. Never compromise on toast.

Not to mention that the ordinances required for salvation and exaltation require a physical body. People in the Spirit world rely on those of us here in order to receive those ordinances. "Waiting to sort it out in the Spirit world" puts the burden of work on more shoulders. Righteousness in this life is also of supreme benefit to many people beyond just ourselves. Through us God is able to be an influence for good in building up strong and righteous families, communities, and nations. Indeed it has been told to us that for the righteous' sake is the world preserved from destruction that the wicked at this time are meriting. The righteous are a light to the world, combating darkness wherever it is found. Measuring out love, kindness, peace, and charity in opposition to hatred, cruelty, calamity, and chaos. The righteous form a bulwark against evil, growing in power and majesty through simple daily acts of goodness. Once our salvation and exaltation are assured through the atonement we become a force for good in this world. We are an advantage in God's favour in His work of bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

The situation isn't funny, but it's funny to me that I have never heard of this person until today.

This is an excerpt from Jesus the Christ by Elder Talmage on the subject. From Chapter 22 : https://www.lds.org/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-22?lang=eng https://www.lds.org/manual/jesus-the-christ/chapter-13?lang=eng This chapter goes into detail about Christ's teaching the Samaritan woman. (Samaritans are actually descendants of Israel)

It's like a weird and skewey preview of the resurrection.... except I think her eyes were replaced with marbles.

Welcome!

I avoided that one! Oh but I should add something to the thread. First, Claire, it's great you are reading the Book of Mormon. I was around 6 when my mother joined the lds church so I do not understand what it is like reading the Book of Mormon through the lense of another faith. My mother would know, she grew up Anglican. The only memories I have of going to the Anglican church are of being really bored and more than a little annoyed that everyone got to have a wafer snack except me. It wasn't until I was 25 that I served a mission and needed to appreciate that what seemed so simple and obvious to me about the Book of Mormon wasn't quite so easy for those new to it. Still, getting people to even open the Book of Mormon on their own and read it seemed way more difficult than I thought it should be so I applaud you. The Book of Mormon is my favourite book. Beyond the doctrine, which is supremely satisfying, I often find myself daydreaming about the implications of the Book of Mormon. For example, the idea of a separate colony of Israelites living on another continent, who were living the law of Moses while at the same time looking forward to the day Christ would come, knowing Him by name. Christianity existing somewhere else besides the middle east and long before the generally accepted history of Christianity originating in the first century AD. Not only this 600BC -421AD group, but an earlier group from Tower of Babel times who were also Christian. The Nephite civilization who recorded the Book of Mormon events had in their possession actual written records of people who came to the Americas around the time of the Tower of Babel's destruction, and we get a summary of that record from the book of Ether. Genesis we have, but that is written by Moses. To have actual written accounts from people living at the time of the Tower of Babel is incredible to me. To know that the Nephites had with them what amounts to the Old Testament (called the Plates of Brass - includes our old testament up to Jeremiah, since they left Jerusalem in 600BC, along with other writings mentioned, like those of Zenos and Zenock, which were apparently lost since they are not included in what we have today in our old testament), which they quote from often, but has direct references to Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah. The Book of Mormon proves that the ancient Israelites knew not only that their messiah would come, but what His name would be. I have heard enough time people arguing that the Bible is a man-made fabrication, but that argument crumbles away when the same "man-made" ideas are in another ancient book written thousands of miles away on another continent accross the ocean. Coincidence could never account for how well the Book of Mormon and the Holy Bible support each other and confirm each other's testimonies. It saddens me when the Book of Mormon is casually dismissed, as it often is, when the reality is the Book of Mormon is of earthshaking significance. So I am grateful you are reading it and taking it seriously.

Can we maybe not talk about donuts? I'm trying to lose weight and this thread is filling up with carbs.

I'm curious to know what definition of faith is being used here when comparing faith to knowledge.

I play warhammer fantasy but recently my game of choice is Dust Warfare and Dust Battlefield. WW2 but also features things like walkers, jetpacks, lasers, etc. Much cheaper to play than any GW game and a lot of fun.

Not only do differing doctrines seem to create gulfs but vocabulary differences. The word "creation", for example, means different things to an LDS person with a view of a pre-mortal existence and a "mainstream" Christian with no view of a pre-mortal existence. Words like; salvation, creation, grace, works, faith, priesthood, etc. make understanding difficult. Certain subjects appear very strange to me when I read about other non-LDS Christian theologies because I default to my peculiarly LDS definitions of the words I read. If the same is true of non-LDS Christians learning about LDS theology (and I have experienced this problem) then the odd gulf vocabulary disparity creates can lead to confusion, frustration, and antagonism (sadly). LDS theology makes perfect sense to me, but the first time I tried to understand how the pre-mortal life might seem to someone with a trinitarian view of God, coupled with a belief that our existence and creation only begins with our birth on this planet, it became very clear that I had completely missed some critical barriers to understanding.

I feel that emotions are a powerful and critical part of our ability to recognize truth. In fact, I feel that proper discernment of spiritual promptings is a superior form of learning than anything else, and emotions are a key facet to spiritual communication. Think about how important it is to know if God lives or not. If the Book of Mormon is true or not. These are considerations of life and death importance. Today we love to talk about history, archaeology, anthropology, all kinds of -ologies and discuss them as evidence for or against, oh the Book of Mormon for example. This is interesting and I love learning about this kind of thing, but I also recognize that in 1830, when the Book of Mormon was published, there was the same necessity to learn that it is true then that there is today. In 1830, however, there was not the amount of information in regards to all the history and -ologies. We today are lacking much information compared to what people 100 years from now will know, but our necessity to know the truth is the same. 1830's LDS investigators, ancient Israelites, 2nd century Christians, and everyone anywhere at any time needs a reliable tool to know what is true that does not rely on Man's learning and understanding. We can't afford to wait until we "have all the facts (how could you know what you don't know?)" before we make a decision because right now, today, is the time for men to prepare to meet God. Emotions are universal to human beings. They do not rely on technology. They are not dependent on language. They are in us, and with a little training people can learn to be in control of them. To act, rather than be acted upon. People do often say that emotions can be manipulated, but the emotions that you feel aren't lies. The dishonesty is in whomever created the false environment to coax an emotion. God teaches us to bridle our passions, and to be in control of our emotions. This way they become an integral part of how He communicates with us. I truly believe that the apparent gulf between logical thinking and emotional understanding is entirely man-made and false. Like one is more useful than the other, or that they are foreign concepts to one another. God, knowing all things, is as logical and scientific a man as you could ever encounter. Yet He chooses to communicate to us, His children, using a combination of reason and emotion. Don't you believe that God would use the best possible means of teaching critical truths He wants us to know that is available?

(Last off topic post here I promise) It was +4 Celsius yesterday. That tropical enough?

It'll probably be "Modern" or "Relevant"

Hiyo!

Didn't Nintendo recently bring back Balloon Fight? Loved that one growing up. I think I saw someone mention Journey. If you ever get the chance to play that, or ThatGameCompany's other games; Flower, and Flow, play them. The best part about those games is they are all very serene games that are essentially impossible to fail at and have stories hinted at but largely left up to your own imagination to interpret. Journey is a little guy in red(or white later) trying to reach a mountain in the distance. Flow is a small creature in some liquid swimming around eating other creatures to grow Flower is you controlling the wind to brush past flowers and interact with nature.(sounds lame ... but it's really beautiful) On mobile devices Strata is a great puzzle game my wife and I have been playing. We also have enjoyed the LEGO video games. You do smash everything in sight.. but they just break up into lego blocks and those games focus on light-hearted humor over serious stories. They are also ones where there is no such thing as a game over. I recently installed the Sims: Midieval. Seems pretty fun. Patrick Stewart is the narrator so +1 just for him.

If you don't go to church because of another person, you are denying yourself the sacrament. This is basically punishing yourself for someone else's behaviour. Oh Anatess, I don't know how this happened, since Canada has such a similar background of European immigration, but we also take our shoes off when entering homes. Maybe it's time to head north :)

It is Christmas... somehow this can make it more possible to get people to come to church with you when they otherwise might not. Maybe some family members might join you.

My first experience in the temple was very awkward for me. As others have mentioned, there were a lot of unknowns. The temple preparation class was nice and all but it didn't answer any of the questions I had, most of which focused on the practical. Here I had been ordering the clothing and there were items on the list that did not have pictures or explanations. No one would/could tell me what was actually going to occur (which I understand better now but at the time this only frustrated me further). ((Incidentally I was pleased to see the new video from the church about temple garments. That video would have helped me since they actually show the temple clothing and explain the point of them)). What kept me going, was my testimony of the truth of the gospel, of the restoration, of the book of mormon, of Joseph Smith, of President Hinckley (when I went he was the president of the church), and of the saviour. This testimony is the foundation every member or prospective member needs in order to accept what is being taught in the LDS church. If you don't have a testimony it becomes very difficult to hold to that iron rod. Consider the disciples of Christ in the new testament, who upon hearing Christ instruct them that salvation could be had only by eating Christ's flesh and drinking Christ's blood, were so shocked that many turned away and would no longer follow him. When asked if the apostles would also leave all they could say was they had no where else to go, because they knew Christ had the words of life. Only their testimonies sustained them through what for them was also a very alarming experience. Later, at the last supper when Christ handed them bread and said it was his body, and wine as his blood, were their faith and perseverance rewarded with understanding. Suddenly the very odd and shocking statements must have seemed so simple and clear. It sounds to me from your language that you went into the temple with a weak testimony. This isn't to say that you are a bad mormon or you shouldn't have gone. I am not the bishop or stake president who interviewed you and signed the recommend. You also were given every opportunity to leave both before and during the temple ceremony, but I understand feeling pressure. All of this is very normal, but it doesn't mean that the church isn't true or the temple endowment isn't a beautiful and spiritually uplifting thing. It sounds more like you weren't properly prepared, and by keeping your feelings to yourself it made that lack of preparation worse. The choice you have to make now is are you willing to do the work to find out if the church is true? If the book of mormon is scripture? If Joseph Smith is a prophet? The endowment was revealed to Joseph Smith. If Joseph is a prophet then the endowment is of God and you can be sure that what you are feeling is not the spirit telling you that the temple isn't good. If you can gain that foundational testimony, then you will be able to bear all the very different experiences that the temple offers. And just as an aside, I met a man who had traded his activity in the church for a buddhist lifestyle. I have nothing against Buddhism, but it is not a replacement for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It has no power to save, though it teaches many good and wonderful things. He told me that he had, through meditation, also felt just as spiritual as attending the temple. The key difference, which I didn't realize until later, is that while meditation might be spiritual to him, it wasn't giving him the tools he needed to reach exaltation in the next life. Also, as we go to the temple only for ourselves the first time, subsequent visits are done for the dead. As much as this man might meditate, he was doing no service for his dead ancestors. Worse still he was leading his family away from God, though under the pretense of something spiritual and good. Everyone struggles in this church. I applaud you for talking about it.