Evangelicals and Mormons

[bytor2112]

My evangelical father-in-law has made some interesting observations and contrasts between his faith and ours. He says Mormons seem to be so pre-occupied with "doing enough" and making sure that we haven't done one of our many do-nots that we lack true happiness that being a follower of Christ provides.

In his faith, salvation is assured even if you screw up. In our faith, we are told we have agency (not without consequence) and we are free to choose as long as we choose what the LDS church says is the correct choice. He asks," Does the Lord really care if you enjoy a glass of tea or a starbucks with a friend? Wine with dinner or a glass of beer? Yet, Mormons are so uptight that they quibble over why coffee or tea is bad or if caffeine should be avoided.

He also points out to how many unhappy mormons there seems to be or how many inactive mormons there are and concludes that their must be a problem. He says, it is the "impossible gospel" and not the welcoming love of Christ. In his faith, he is saved and is very happy. He is a good man, loves coffee and tea and occasionally enjoys a beer or glass of wine. He is confident in his beliefs and in his salvation.

This seems to be common with evangelicals.... a very happy lot. I admire evangelicals and the peace they have from their beliefs. I am a faithful Latter Day Saint and will remain so. But, I must say, that it seems that we might learn a thing or two from our evangelical friends.

[prisonchaplain]

I wonder if FIL bases his thoughts on actual observations, or on preconceptions related to the whole "works-salvation" (i.e. grace vs. works) doctrine? Personally, I could not make such generalizations. However, in your favor, you have a much stronger sense of community, and seem to pull together really well. For good or ill, I spoke with a fellow once who quite believing your church at 17, but did not leave until 34, because he found the community connections and support so helpful. I do not believe he was a hypocrite--rather he was semi-inactive. Most evangelicals who had a serious problem with church doctrine (or people) would be gone by the next Sunday.

[bytor2112]

I wonder if FIL bases his thoughts on actual observations, or on preconceptions related to the whole "works-salvation" (i.e. grace vs. works) doctrine? Personally, I could not make such generalizations. However, in your favor, you have a much stronger sense of community, and seem to pull together really well. For good or ill, I spoke with a fellow once who quite believing your church at 17, but did not leave until 34, because he found the community connections and support so helpful. I do not believe he was a hypocrite--rather he was semi-inactive. Most evangelicals who had a serious problem with church doctrine (or people) would be gone by the next Sunday.

Probably a bit of both. Gone the next Sunday...because he is after all saved.

[prisonchaplain]

Another difference is that higher-minded folks who notice s/he's gone would say, "I hope he founds a new church home that can help."

[annewandering]

Well theres a nice place for those who are good people and are content to live a happy life with no real further expectations. We are going to be where we are happy and there is a nice place for those like that.

As LDS we are taught that there is a place we can not only be happy but even more in the Celestial Kingdom. It requires more that just being happy.

[bytor2112]

Well theres a nice place for those who are good people and are content to live a happy life with no real further expectations. We are going to be where we are happy and there is a nice place for those like that.

As LDS we are taught that there is a place we can not only be happy but even more in the Celestial Kingdom. It requires more that just being happy.

Yes....like stressing over having a mean thought, or whether to caffeine is ok or green tea or if I have served enough. (That would be my FIL reply) or you can't be with your family if you choose to enjoy Starbucks......

I know, I know, he doesn't get it....but sometimes I struggle with it as well.

[prisonchaplain]

Have you ever noticed that some folks are OCD when it comes to guilt, and others seem completely immune, when their need is dire?

[Dravin]

Have you ever noticed that some folks are OCD when it comes to guilt, and others seem completely immune, when their need is dire?

Guilt, that is to say godly sorrow, is a good thing, as is a proper understanding that we are imperfect and must relying on the atonement of Jesus Christ because despite our best efforts we will sin. I think what you describe is an imbalance between a proper understanding of those aspects. One is loosing sight of our imperfection and reliance on Christ and grabbing too firmly on guilt, and the other is loosing sight of the proper purpose of Godly sorrow to spur us to follow the Savior more closely by gasping too tightly on the knowledge that we are imperfect despite our best efforts and must rely on the Atonement.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Dravin

[beefche]

My evangelical father-in-law has made some interesting observations and contrasts between his faith and ours. He says Mormons seem to be so pre-occupied with "doing enough" and making sure that we haven't done one of our many do-nots that we lack true happiness that being a follower of Christ provides.

In his faith, salvation is assured even if you screw up. In our faith, we are told we have agency (not without consequence) and we are free to choose as long as we choose what the LDS church says is the correct choice. He asks," Does the Lord really care if you enjoy a glass of tea or a starbucks with a friend? Wine with dinner or a glass of beer? Yet, Mormons are so uptight that they quibble over why coffee or tea is bad or if caffeine should be avoided.

He also points out to how many unhappy mormons there seems to be or how many inactive mormons there are and concludes that their must be a problem. He says, it is the "impossible gospel" and not the welcoming love of Christ. In his faith, he is saved and is very happy. He is a good man, loves coffee and tea and occasionally enjoys a beer or glass of wine. He is confident in his beliefs and in his salvation.

This seems to be common with evangelicals.... a very happy lot. I admire evangelicals and the peace they have from their beliefs. I am a faithful Latter Day Saint and will remain so. But, I must say, that it seems that we might learn a thing or two from our evangelical friends.

1. We are free to choose as long as we choose what the Church wants. I choose to not drink coffee, tea, and alcohol. I don't debate every time I walk into a Starbucks on whether I will have coffee or not. I don't agonize over whether I will accept a glass of wine while at a dinner party. I made the decision to abstain a long time ago and thus, my freedom to choose is intact. I simply choose something different than your FIL. BTW, I also choose to drink caffeine (Mountain Dew rules!) and don't agonize when my fellow LDS friend chooses not to drink caffeine--it's her choice.

2. Inactive members means unhappy Mormons. Each organization has inactive members. Further, the definition of inactive varies. What someone chooses to do has no bearing on my happiness. I visit teach a non-member--so far, she's investigated for about a year and she and her husband have not chosen to be baptized. They are sporadic in their attendance of church. I do what I can to encourage them, fellowship them, serve them. But the fact that they choose to not attend church or be baptized doesn't dictate my own happiness, nor is it the thermometer of happiness of Mormons in the church.

3. He is saved even though he screws up and is happy with that thought. I am saved even though I screw up because I repent. The Atonement of Jesus is something that I treasure and am so fortunate to have in my life. Sure, I feel guilty when I screw up--I may even be unhappy about it for a while. But, upon true repentance, I can be happy again. His choices to drink coffee, tea, and alcohol are not covenants he has made--therefore, he won't feel guilty about doing such. But, if he were to murder someone, commit adultery, or steal--wouldn't he feel guilty about such? As a Christian, I believe he has made promises to God to follow the 10 commandments (at the very least)--if he doesn't follow them, wouldn't he feel guilty?

[bytor2112]

All very true Beef....but there are a lot of miserable Saints, active and otherwise. I'm not sure why, but, I think outsiders would see it is because of the uncertainty of salvation (as they understand it) and the peculiar things we peculiar folks do.

[annewandering]

All very true Beef....but there are a lot of miserable Saints, active and otherwise. I'm not sure why, but, I think outsiders would see it is because of the uncertainty of salvation (as they understand it) and the peculiar things we peculiar folks do.

then again some people are just going to be miserable and dont need much of an excuse but its always nice to be able to connect the church to it somehow. (facetious if you are wondering)

[beefche]

I've never understood why Mormons who are miserable have their emotions attributed to the LDS doctrine. But other people who are miserable--well, we just don't know what religion they are.

Does your FIL only meet miserable Mormons and never an unhappy atheist, Evangelical, non-denominational, janitor, nurse, etc?

I agree, Mormons should be some of the happiest people you'd ever meet. But, we have issues just like everyone else.

[bytor2112]

I've never understood why Mormons who are miserable have their emotions attributed to the LDS doctrine. But other people who are miserable--well, we just don't know what religion they are.

Maybe because of the number of inactives or those who feel hurt or let down by the church (really it's let down by people) or inconsistency of church history. As for the other miserables....I am not sure why. Perhaps the Mormon brand suggests happiness....after all it is called the plan of happiness.

Does your FIL only meet miserable Mormons and never an unhappy atheist, Evangelical, non-denominational, janitor, nurse, etc?

I doubt he knows many Mormons. I am guessing he would believe that miserable or not, at church or not, if the are "saved" it is all ok.

I agree, Mormons should be some of the happiest people you'd ever meet. But, we have issues just like everyone else.

And many are....I am a very happy Mormon.

[Mamas_Girl]

I am a very happy Mormon.

As am I.

As for the comment about inactives within the LDS Church, back when I was a kid growing up Methodist we used to have a standard joke that I believe all churches do -- He [or she] is a Christmas Christian. Meaning they come out only for Christmas and/or Easter, or if lucky both. There are inactives in all churches.

I can also tell you that in the last 6 months there's now one less inactive. :) BTW, my inactivity had nothing to do with the church. Though I can tell you this, my return to the church is due to one bishop determining he was gonna get me back before he left office, so he kept me in his prayers. He was just released a few weeks ago after 7 years! I guess the Lord had him wait for me to come back before he could be released.

I'm grateful to my former bishop because I'm back and stronger than I've EVER been.

[applepansy]

Yes....like stressing over having a mean thought, or whether to caffeine is ok or green tea or if I have served enough. (That would be my FIL reply) or you can't be with your family if you choose to enjoy Starbucks......

I know, I know, he doesn't get it....but sometimes I struggle with it as well.

I understand what you're saying. But I don't stress over it. I just do my best and I know Christ will make up the difference. The "do my best" requires me to be aware of my weaknesses and keep repenting. :) That used to stress me. I was never going to be good enough...but it doesn't stress me anymore.

I believe LDS can be just as happy as Evangelicals and still be aware of what we need to improve on. :)

[rameumptom]

I think there are many unhappy Mormon, who seek to save themselves, instead of allowing Christ to save them.

That said, I think there are many traditional Christians who are equally unhappy, while others are deceived into thinking their salvation comes from predestination or from lip service-like faith.

Traditional Christians focus on salvation by grace, which we also believe in. Through justification of Christ's blood, when we have faith and repent, we are saved from hell and damnation of the soul (2nd death). Where we differ is that LDS then focus on the sanctification process - becoming holy. It isn't easy, but it is a greater blessing than many Christians will receive, who continue in their sins, believing they are saved once and for all, and do no more for their relationship with God.

[Blackmarch]

My evangelical father-in-law has made some interesting observations and contrasts between his faith and ours. He says Mormons seem to be so pre-occupied with "doing enough" and making sure that we haven't done one of our many do-nots that we lack true happiness that being a follower of Christ provides.

ya thats a problem many religious people have.. we like to itemize things into a list to check off, LDS as well as many other faiths over the years have had that stumbling block (and it has been repeatedly addressed by our leaders).

In his faith, salvation is assured even if you screw up. In our faith, we are told we have agency (not without consequence) and we are free to choose as long as we choose what the LDS church says is the correct choice. He asks," Does the Lord really care if you enjoy a glass of tea or a starbucks with a friend? Wine with dinner or a glass of beer? Yet, Mormons are so uptight that they quibble over why coffee or tea is bad or if caffeine should be avoided.

A ) Ours goes a step further, we have to be willing to repent to be able to be saved.

B ) No in the Long run God does not care if you have a cup of coffee or not. However he does care how we respond to his servants. (exodus in the bible has many good examples...Such as whene all the israelites had to do was look up to a snake lifted up on a pole or a cross to be healed of the poison that they had recieved from snakebite, yet many did not do so and died.)

He also points out to how many unhappy mormons there seems to be or how many inactive mormons there are and concludes that their must be a problem. He says, it is the "impossible gospel" and not the welcoming love of Christ. In his faith, he is saved and is very happy. He is a good man, loves coffee and tea and occasionally enjoys a beer or glass of wine. He is confident in his beliefs and in his salvation.

according to one theory of psychology happiness/comfort results when what we percieve what we should do matches with what we are doing. I know people have a tendency to set really high goals then get really depressed when they can't achieve them, it's quite possible that LDS culture has a higher percentage of folks that do that ( I can certainly see how thats possible), however i don't think its high enough in relation to all other cultural influences to make an exception for.

Its easy to be happy when things are going well, how about when they are raked over the coals and dragged through the refiners fire?

This seems to be common with evangelicals.... a very happy lot. I admire evangelicals and the peace they have from their beliefs. I am a faithful Latter Day Saint and will remain so. But, I must say, that it seems that we might learn a thing or two from our evangelical friends.

Quite possibly as long as we don't have to lower or change our standards to do so.

[Traveler]

I believe that true joy in life is in finding the joy in seeking truth and in right living rather than making excuses for living a life style that is not in harmony with being a saint of G-d. There is a tendency in all of us to believe that others, regardless of their efforts will not “make it” because of some flaw in their religion but that we will “make it” despite our deliberate lack of effort because of our “better” religion.

In contrast - it honestly seems to me that G-d ought to, should and does expect more and not less from those that believe and covenant with him thus are closer to him, borne again and “one” with G-d. I cannot imagine a more potent indication that one is on the wrong path to hell (off the right path) than someone with less understanding of the love, compassion, goodness and mercies of G-d living with more love and compassion toward their fellow man.

The Traveler

[Windseeker]

“He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. “But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.” (Isa. 53:3–5.)

We follow and worship "a man of sorrows" What does it mean to take up the cross? Surely as his followers we will be acquainted with grief and sorrows.

How great in the sight of the Lord are those who, though they are recognized, honored, and respected, realize in their hearts that true greatness is found in following the Savior and help those who are sick, afflicted, discouraged, homeless, and burdened with crosses.

And so we do not reverence crosses. Instead, we strive to carry them with dignity and power. It is our right and responsibility to carry our crosses, and while we’re doing it, to have the good sense and judgment to count our blessings

Marvin J. Ashton

The fact we are not all glassy eyed happiness sunshine and rainbows shows me we are true Saints much like the Saints of old. We carry our own crosses and work out our own salvation with fear and trembling …” (Philip. 2:12)

[prisonchaplain]

Where we differ is that LDS then focus on the sanctification process - becoming holy. It isn't easy, but it is a greater blessing than many Christians will receive, who continue in their sins, believing they are saved once and for all, and do no more for their relationship with God.

I will not deny that some Christians have this distorted belief. However, very few churches promote it. Rather we despise this thinking as "cheap grace." (see : "Cheap Grace" is no bargain, Dietrich Bonhoeffer) Nobody can game God.

For a short explanation of my church's doctrine on sanctification (holiness) see: Sanctification & Holiness

Edited November 28, 2011 by prisonchaplain

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I will not deny that some Christians have this distorted belief. However, very few churches promote it. Rather we despise this thinking as "cheap grace." (see : "Cheap Grace" is no bargain, Dietrich Bonhoeffer) Nobody can game God.

For a short explanation of my church's doctrine on sanctification (holiness) see: Sanctification & Holiness

I especially like this paragraph from your citation:

The purpose of the sanctification process is that believers might become more and more like the Lord Jesus Christ. Even though Christians may not attain absolute perfection in this life, they are expected to make every effort to live a holy life, because "without holiness no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

Reformation teaching talks about being positionally righteous or having imputed righteousness with little or no import affixed to measuring up on a corporal level. The Catholic Church teaches holiness as something that can be achieved in this life, not perfection, but being centered in perfect harmony with the will of God. Such cloisters as convents and monastaries are expressions of this, not that there is anything unholy about marriage, but rather how it becomes possible to remove all distractions, abstain from the pleasures of this life, and attain the supreme knowledge of Christ by pressing in with unmitigated abandon.

Whether or not we are, as Martin Luther put it, "snow covered dung" we ought to strive for holiness, running the race as if to win it.

[Snow]

This seems to be common with evangelicals.... a very happy lot. I admire evangelicals and the peace they have from their beliefs. I am a faithful Latter Day Saint and will remain so. But, I must say, that it seems that we might learn a thing or two from our evangelical friends.

What evidence is there that Evangelicals are any happier than Mormons or anyone else?

[Juan_P]

My evangelical father-in-law ...

In his faith, salvation is assured even if you screw up.

Bill Clinton, Newt and now Herman Cain truly love that doctrine!

He also points out to how many unhappy mormons there seems to be or how many inactive mormons there are and concludes that their must be a problem

The inactives actually help prove that we aren't a cult since they aren't forced to return nor suffer any extreme consequences for being less active imho.

This seems to be common with evangelicals.... a very happy lot

However there is a difference between Utah/Idaho mormons and anywhere else mormon. I travel a lot and find that outside of the Utah/idaho belt the church and the members are very different, more relaxed, happy, laid back and easier to get along with. There's something odd with members in Utah, especially out in regional and country areas. Maybe its because they are all republicans???? not sure.

[prisonchaplain]

What evidence is there that Evangelicals are any happier than Mormons or anyone else?

Just look at my avatar...then your blinking eye...then my avatar...then your blinking eye...suddenly, it will hit you.

[mordorbund]

Just look at my avatar...then your blinking eye...then my avatar...then your blinking eye...suddenly, it will hit you.

I suddenly want to splash on some Old Spice.