How to show respect and gain understanding when discussing differences with LDS members??

[Irishcolleen]

I know Mormons. I really care about them and value their friendships. While we have similar lifestyles, we also have significant differences in beliefs. Is there a way to discuss the differences, when appropriate, in a way that doesn't harm the relationships. I've noticed online that at times some LDS get offended when they are asked about certain doctrines, at times denying they believe certain teachings even when it is in literature published by the LDS church.

How can I have a discussion on "meat"? I am not a novice when it comes to scripture, so suggesting I need "milk" is not reasonable. I would really like to address the differences in beliefs with them, but in a non-judgemental, loving manner.

Oh, and just so you know, I know Mormons don't practice polygamy, don't use real dead bodies in baptisms for the dead, etc... :) I would also not bring up what happens in the temple, as I know it is considered sacred.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Irishcolleen
grammar

[LittleWyvern]

I'm not sure what you want to know (but this forum would be a good place to ask!), but this article has some good advice for the inquisitive. :)

[Anddenex]

Is there a way to discuss the differences, when appropriate, in a way that doesn't harm the relationships.

Yes.

I've noticed online that at times some LDS get offended when they are asked about certain doctrines, at times denying they believe certain teachings even when it is in literature published by the LDS church.

Are they denying certain teachings, or is it they themselves have not read them? It is similar when an atheist asks a believer, who they themselves, have never read the old testament, and then are told something and they deny it, not because they are being deceitful, but because they themselves have never heard it before, or have not read it?

I would be curious as to what you think is published by the LDS Church. The Adam-God Theory is not published by the Church, nor is the Blood-Atonement. If you are trying to say this is "meat" of the LDS faith, then you are looking for trouble, and not being a sincere friend, who wants to have an open discussion.

How can I have a discussion on "meat"? I am not a novice when it comes to scripture, so suggesting I need "milk" is not reasonable. I would really like to address the differences in beliefs with them, but in a non-judgemental, loving manner.

This is a very interesting statement, because those in the New Testament who crucified their Lord, were the ones that were supposed to be the most studied, and yet when the "meat" of the whole gospel stood before them, they slapped him, spit upon him, and crucified him, calling him a blasphemer.

What questions do you consider milk? What questions do you consider meat?

Whenever I have entered into a conversation with a person claiming to be non-judgmental it is really easy to tell if they are sincere or not.

If you are sincere, and non-judgmental, loving as you say, then no member will have any trouble with your conversations. It is the people that pretend to be such that frustrates a number of us, especially when they try to say we believe in things that we don't, or that certain principles taught by past prophets are doctrines of the church, when they are not.

EDIT: If you want to have a perfect example of a non-LDS member who is open to conversation, friendly, and easily to speak with, though we disagree on doctrinal standpoints, then please get to know PrisonChaplain (PC), on this site.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Anddenex

[Guest]

We tackle differences everyday here. Those who take offense can just continue to take offense. The forum just moves on and they can hop in and hop out as they need to. We can ignore offense filled posts and just pick up on those that are reasonable. Open mind and a willingness to understand where the other side is coming from is always helpful. Agreement is not required.

[szorgalmasan]

As long as you are not asking specifics about the temple and things like that, I don't understand why they would be evasive. It's possible that they simply don't know the answer, or have never heard the teaching that you are asking about. The "milk" as you call it, is mostly what is taught in church on Sundays, because those are considered the doctrines necessary for salvation. Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and Enduring to the End.

What exactly are you asking about, and maybe people here can help without getting offended or being judgmental.

[Backroads]

My first reaction is that some of us can be hyper-sensitive. Many of us had the "friendly debates" that are actually very cruel, so I think many LDS people will automatically put up their defenses. Though I imagine constant friendliness and sincerity could help work past this.

As for doctrine they aren't accepting, there could be two major reasons for it:

1. That Mormon has simply never heard of it.

2. You are trying to bring up something you may think is doctrine, but isn't. Actual technical true cannon Mormon doctrine is surprisingly small in scope--just because it's literature written by a Mormon doesn't make it doctrine.

[MarginOfError]

Yes.

Are they denying certain teachings, or is it they themselves have not read them? It is similar when an atheist asks a believer, who they themselves, have never read the old testament, and then are told something and they deny it, not because they are being deceitful, but because they themselves have never heard it before, or have not read it?

I would be curious as to what you think is published by the LDS Church. The Adam-God Theory is not published by the Church, nor is the Blood-Atonement. If you are trying to say this is "meat" of the LDS faith, then you are looking for trouble, and not being a sincere friend, who wants to have an open discussion.

Or she may be misinformed about what is actual LDS doctrine and what isn't. In this case, an open discussion would be warranted to clear up misconceptions.

[Anddenex]

Or she may be misinformed about what is actual LDS doctrine and what isn't. In this case, an open discussion would be warranted to clear up misconceptions.

Agreed.

[Traveler]

I know Mormons. I really care about them and value their friendships. While we have similar lifestyles, we also have significant differences in beliefs. Is there a way to discuss the differences, when appropriate, in a way that doesn't harm the relationships. I've noticed online that at times some LDS get offended when they are asked about certain doctrines, at times denying they believe certain teachings even when it is in literature published by the LDS church.

How can I have a discussion on "meat"? I am not a novice when it comes to scripture, so suggesting I need "milk" is not reasonable. I would really like to address the differences in beliefs with them, but in a non-judgemental, loving manner.

Oh, and just so you know, I know Mormons don't practice polygamy, don't use real dead bodies in baptisms for the dead, etc... :) I would also not bring up what happens in the temple, as I know it is considered sacred.

One of the things that everyone should understand is that anyone's beliefs can be spun in a manner in which they are misrepresented. Since you are acquainted with scripture I am sure you will recall a very important statement by Nicodemus when Jesus was being accused by certain Jews. His response was something like, "Does our Law condemn a man before it has heard him speak?"

The way to have any discussion with anyone is to realize that they are the expert of their opinion. Therefore, despite what you think you may have read - you must understand that anything taken out of context can result in completely false conclusions.

At the same time many individuals really do not understand what they believe and so pointed questions are appropriate. Let me give an example. Often many "Christians" claim that G-d is so separated and different from man that there are no real comparisons. For example G-d is infinite and eternal and man is finite and created. An obvious question is - how then is man in the image and likeness of G-d? As an engineer and scientist - I have acute understanding that there are no actual similarities or likeness between things infinite and things finite - in fact such things are in essence opposites.

The point is that there are differences we each have in understanding and comprehending truth. But the tendency is to convince rather than understand.

The Traveler

[estradling75]

For me nothing irritates me more then someone who assumes they know what I believe. While they might truly know, if they start out with that assumption then it throws a red flag for me. It shows me that they are less interested in hearing me then scoring points or building up their argument.

Related to this is certain subjects. These subjects appear to only be brought up by those who attack the church. (For example the Adam-God Theory) These naturally tend to put us on the defensive. It can be discussed but how you approach it makes a world of difference. For example saying 'How come you Mormons believe Adam is God?' This question fails on multiple levels (being wrong is the first one) and is seen as an attack. Saying something like "I heard/read something about and Adam-God Theory. Can you tell me about it?" It is a wildly hands down better approach. The discussion that then happens can go from what logically follows from what they tell you. Which for many could very well be. "I don't know anything about it. I've never been taught about it so it is clearly not a church teaching."

[NeuroTypical]

How to show respect and gain understanding when discussing differences with LDS members??

I have three suggestions. I don't know you, maybe you have already been following these, or some of them. But here they are:

First, you have to actually want to do what you just said. I've lost count of Christians who say that, but their real intent is to show us the error of our ways, prove us wrong, share God's light with the wayward and the lost, help us emerge from the lying cult of mormonism, or what have you. I mean really - if you want to do those things then fine - there's nothing wrong with that - just admit it to yourself and mormons you encounter. Go get an account at the Mormon Dialoge and Discussion Board and have at us. But if you want to convince us we're wrong or bring us to the light you have, you are wasting both our time with these words about showing respect and gaining understanding.

Second, know what you believe and why you believe it. I have also lost count of Christians who take issue with me for my beliefs, and then stumble when I point out the Biblical source of my belief. A lot of sputtering and "well, that's not what it means" and whatnot. Come to grips that much of your belief springs from humans getting together and figuring out what books to turn into the bible, and how to interpret what is there. Once you can handle the Nicene Council's impact on your beliefs about the Bible, and that those beliefs aren't the only valid ones to hold, then you will be able to show respect for and gain understanding about me and mine.

Third, follow this advice from former Bishop of Stockholm Krister Stendahl:

1 Don't seek info from his enemies. Learn about his faith from him.

2 Compare your best with his best -- not your best with his worst.

3 Leave room for "holy envy": seeing something in his faith that you'd like to make yours.

I am guessing that you would be surprised how many of these 'differences' you mention are a result of not following suggestion #1.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Loudmouth_Mormon

[Irishcolleen]

Third, follow this advice from former Bishop of Stockholm Krister Stendahl:

1 Don't seek info from his enemies. Learn about his faith from him.

2 Compare your best with his best -- not your best with his worst.

3 Leave room for "holy envy": seeing something in his faith that you'd like to make yours.

I am guessing that you would be surprised how many of these 'differences' you mention are a result of not following suggestion #1.

These are good points!

1.It is important to go to original sources of info.

2. I would hate for my worst to be compared to others best.

3. There is a lot that I admire in LDS people, the family emphasis, low divorce rates, emphasis on morality and modesty, and in general similar political ideas. My girls even buy clothes from Mormon owned companies that specialize in modest clothing. They tend to be the only places with decent hem lengths!!!

[Backroads]

My girls even buy clothes from Mormon owned companies that specialize in modest clothing. They tend to be the only places with decent hem lengths!!!

If there's one thing we Mormons do right, it's creating a proper hem length!

[bytebear]

I find two kinds of discussions. 1) they genuinely want to learn what we believe and 2) they want to teach us a lesson.

[Backroads]

I recall years ago a "friendly discussion". It got ugly because my answers did not mesh with what this person had thought she knew about Mormons.

[Mute]

I know Mormons. I really care about them and value their friendships. While we have similar lifestyles, we also have significant differences in beliefs. Is there a way to discuss the differences, when appropriate, in a way that doesn't harm the relationships. I've noticed online that at times some LDS get offended when they are asked about certain doctrines, at times denying they believe certain teachings even when it is in literature published by the LDS church.

How can I have a discussion on "meat"? I am not a novice when it comes to scripture, so suggesting I need "milk" is not reasonable. I would really like to address the differences in beliefs with them, but in a non-judgmental, loving manner.

Oh, and just so you know, I know Mormons don't practice polygamy, don't use real dead bodies in baptisms for the dead, etc... :) I would also not bring up what happens in the temple, as I know it is considered sacred.

Is there a way to discuss differences in belief that doesn't harm your relationship? Absolutely there is but this is not what I find typically happens. Let me give you an example of just one scenario. At Utah State University, there are two preachers that frequently hang out around the fountain. They write messages on a board inviting others to chat with them. For an unsuspecting person, this might seem friendly enough. That is until you engage in conversation with them for more than a minute. Then you'll quickly see that it's not peaceful intentions you just walked into. Their billboards are bait for young students. Once they lure them in, they attack and debate with them about being lds. I was already prepared for what to expect but most were not.

On two occasions, I talked with these two men for several hours about their beliefs. At the begging of our conversation, I told them that I was not religious and not lds. Despite having told them that, 80% of what they said were negative comments towards the lds faith and how they were wrong. Here and there I corrected them on small things they said that were false but for the most part I just listened and let them speak what they wanted to say. It was not my goal to enter into a debate with them. However, when they asked me questions, typically, they did not listen to me. They would cut me off when I tried to speak and were insulting in their dialogue and tone. They would make assumptions and stick words in my mouth that I did not say.

Near the end of our conversation, they asked me if I had been lds before. When I said yes, one of them repeatably called me a liar for having told him I was not lds. As a friendly gesture, I offered to help them carry their stuff down to their car. On the entire walk down, the younger fellow was on his phone complaining to someone about "Mormon Jesus" while the other man continued to accuse me of lying about being a member. Kindness does earn kindness though. When we reached their van, they offered me a ride that I politely declined and it felt like that act of helping them at least made some difference. I never talked to them again except to say a friendly hi as I walked bye to class.

I wish this was just a one time thing but the sad truth of it is this scenario is not so very different from that of virtually every other past experience I've had with protestant christians wanting to have a "friendly discussion".

It's the whole mind set of "we're helping you by being ****ing insulting" that is so irritating to people. If you want to have a friendly relationship with someone, don't preach to them about why they are wrong. Instead share why you believe your beliefs are correct and how that makes you happier. If the person is not interested, don't push it on them. Let them believe as they want even if you believe with every fiber of your being that they are wrong and going to hell for eternity because they don't agree with your take on religion. Agree to disagree and move on. Don't be a pr*** over it. It's as simple as that.

Now when members of these faiths are encouraged to go out and have debates with other churches about why they are wrong, that is not going to come across as friendly. If that is your goal, then I'd say your chances of not ruining a relationship are 0%. However, if that is not your goal then you'll do just fine. Most people are not unreasonable and if you treat them with respect they will do the same for you. I'm just trying not to jump to conclusions about your "I would really like to address the differences in beliefs with them, but in a non-judgmental, loving manner" comment. It wouldn't be the first time I've heard that.

On to your second comment though. Online, yes, a lot of LDS do get WAY WAY WAY offended over little things. I think that is partly online people for you and the fact that you can't put your tone of voice into text. You would have a better chance finding non judgmental lds members in person. Heck, there are people on this forum I totally skip past any post/comment they make but that isn't everyone. Read the comments from the posters you think are non judgmental and skip past the rest.

Anyways, good luck to you.

[Misshalfway]

I couldn't possible improve on what's been said. We've got some wise people here!

But I do think that if it's the relationship that you are trying to preserve, then the other person may need to reassurance that you want to talk, you may disagree, but that you will still love/like them no matter what is discussed.

I had a neighbor who was of a different faith. Both of us attempted to relate to one another on a number of different occasions. And truthfully both of us felt uncomfortable. But we both worked on it and continued to reach out to each other in neighborly ways that had nothing to do with religion. And over time, the religious difference became less and less important. And talking about our differences felt more natural and easy.

I really think it's about building trust, understanding the human process of doing so, and giving each other lots of reassurance. I think it's important that you do some soul searching so you honestly know your motivation in going head to head with your neighbors religious beliefs. And I think you need to know a little about how you'll react if someone becomes defensive or if you hear something that truly exasperates you. How would you want to be treated in these situations? And what would help your defenses calm? I think for me it's frustrating when someone assumes that I want to scrutinize my religion as much as they do. I mean why would I let you in my bathroom to examine my drawers and see what I weigh on the scale? Why would I want you to just invite yourself to invade my belief system? The more I think about your OP, the more I wonder about your motives.

Edited September 27, 2012 by Misshalfway

[prisonchaplain]

I know Mormons. I really care about them and value their friendships. While we have similar lifestyles, we also have significant differences in beliefs. Is there a way to discuss the differences, when appropriate, in a way that doesn't harm the relationships. I've noticed online that at times some LDS get offended when they are asked about certain doctrines, at times denying they believe certain teachings even when it is in literature published by the LDS church.

People believe what they believe, and it's not always what we think we know a religion teaches. As a teen I gave a doctrine test to one of my friends, who was a Jehovah's Witness. The test was based on the beliefs of the Assemblies of God. He scored 85%. I had little need to debate him about doctrine.

After six plus years on this forum I've found people have a pretty broad range of beliefs about many issues. Even on the matter of who God is, most would ascribe to what I call henotheism (there may be many gods, but we worship one God). Some insist that the LDS Godhead is a monotheistic doctrine. I even met one who said he had no problem calling his doctrine polytheism. The official doctrine is easy to find and fairly easy to break down, but when getting into discussions and trying to fleshout what it means and how it is understood, there will be variances.

So...rule #1: Believe your friends when they tell you they do or don't believe certain doctrines. Instead of countering their belief with "official documents," ask questions to understand what they are denying and what they are affirming.

How can I have a discussion on "meat"? I am not a novice when it comes to scripture, so suggesting I need "milk" is not reasonable. I would really like to address the differences in beliefs with them, but in a non-judgemental, loving manner.

Earn trust, and then approach the discussion as a conversation and a time for learning. Don't debate or argue. Overtime, as your friendship deepens, you may get into "convicted conversations." You may want to google about Rev. Greg Johnson and Robert Millet, and the public discussions they hold. They are dear friends, yet one is evangelical and the other LDS. They present a great model for these kinds of interactions.

Oh, and just so you know, I know Mormons don't practice polygamy, don't use real dead bodies in baptisms for the dead, etc... :) I would also not bring up what happens in the temple, as I know it is considered sacred.

You may want to do a temple tour if you ever get a chance. Even though the explanations of what happens are not so detailed, it did give me a good sense for why many find it deeply meaningful.

[JosephP]

Some non-members seem to think that anything ever said by an LDS leader is doctrine. Our leaders have opinions like everyone else. Not everything they say is scripture. I've been in online discussion with people who simply refuse to accept that. They are determined that a church leader said something 160 years ago, so obviously we all believe and teach that.

I would recommend that when someone tells you we don't teach it, that you believe them. Look for your "meat" in our scriptures, not our editorial page. No member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints will ever deny anything in our scripture.

[szorgalmasan]

Some non-members seem to think that anything ever said by an LDS leader is doctrine. Our leaders have opinions like everyone else. Not everything they say is scripture. I've been in online discussion with people who simply refuse to accept that. They are determined that a church leader said something 160 years ago, so obviously we all believe and teach that.

I would recommend that when someone tells you we don't teach it, that you believe them. Look for your "meat" in our scriptures, not our editorial page. No member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints will ever deny anything in our scripture.

I think that this is a concept that is easy for members to understand, but can be difficult for someone on the outside to wrap their head around.

Using the most obvious example: When someone sees a book called "Mormon Doctrine" and written by a person who is sustained as an Apostle, I think the natural reaction is to assume that everything in the book is an actual doctrine of the church, and then members come off seeming uneducated at best and disingenuous at worst when they say it is just opinion.

Also on January 2, 1870 Brigham Young stated:

"I have never yet preached a sermon and

sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call Scripture."

A non-member, who has not been raised on the correlated church materials is liable to read that, and then conclude that every utterance that President Young ever made must be doctrine, while person raised in the church would think that conclusion is preposterous.

I think that LDS Doctrines are best measured by what is actually taught in church on Sunday, and that's why I generally refer people to the Gospel Principals manual. It's easy to just say "read the scriptures," but those can be interpreted different ways by different people, whereas the manuals instruct members on how the scriptures should be interpreted.

[Backroads]

I think for me it's frustrating when someone assumes that I want to scrutinize my religion as much as they do. I mean why would I let you in my bathroom to examine my drawers and see what I weigh on the scale? Why would I want you to just invite yourself to invade my belief system? The more I think about your OP, the more I wonder about your motives.

I think you may have hit something important here, MissHalfway. I've seen a couple of debates where all parties are just a'chompin' at the bit to pick apart each other's and their own religions--and they worked quite well. Because everyone was equally invested.

But while there are many individuals who are genuinally curious/confused/whatever about a religion, those of that religion may not get or appreciate that curiosity.

Big thing to keep in mind.

[Vort]

I've noticed online that at times some LDS get offended when they are asked about certain doctrines, at times denying they believe certain teachings even when it is in literature published by the LDS church.

Not sure why this should be perceived as unusual. The fact that the LDS Church publishes a book that says thus-and-such does not mean that thus-and-such -- or your particular interpretation of it -- constitutes Our Beliefs.

The LDS Church publishes an edition of the King James Bible that says God created the earth in six days. Few Latter-day Saints believe that.

How can I have a discussion on "meat"? I am not a novice when it comes to scripture, so suggesting I need "milk" is not reasonable.

Do you understand:

• The central importance of faith, repentance, baptism, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost?
• That until those things are in order, nothing else matters or can even be broached?
• That faith is a principle of power and not of mere belief?
• The steps of repentance and the way to make it practicable in your life?
• The form and authority required for baptism?
• What it means to receive the Holy Ghost, and how to make that gift transform your life? (This is a vitally important one.)
• The ways in which God speaks to men and women, individually and through the Priesthood structure of his kingdom?
• How the Priesthood operates and what duties it encompasses?
• How the kingdom operates on a day-to-day basis, and how the individual member participates in the workings of the kingdom?
• What it means to sustain one's leaders?
• How one goes about keeping his or her covenants?

If you do not have a thorough understanding of the above points, along with many others I have not listed, then you are in desperate need of the sweet milk of the gospel of Jesus Christ. You will choke on the so-called "meat".

I would really like to address the differences in beliefs with them, but in a non-judgemental, loving manner.

To what end? Are you looking for insight, or are you seeking to pin them down on what you consider their false doctrines? The former is easily accomplished by simply talking with your LDS friends. The latter is better done in another venue.

Oh, and just so you know, I know Mormons don't practice polygamy, don't use real dead bodies in baptisms for the dead

Is there someone who thinks proxy baptisms involve digging up dead bodies?

Oh, my.

[JosephP]

The bottom line, for me, is that inspired is important, but it is not scripture. There are many things that church leaders have said, and that I believe, but I do not defend as scripture. One only needs to look to the bible to see how many teachings the primitive church leaders were teaching that needed correcting by Paul and others. I'm sure the leaders who were teaching them felt inspired that they were teaching the truth.

The difficulty comes when discussing things that are not scripture online with people who's actual motivation isn't understanding, but fault finding. I've had numerous experiences on ask.com of people pretending to want to understand, and the instant you talk about something that isn't scriptural they want to bash it.

I don't know what the Celestial Kingdom will be like, no one does. We've had inspired leaders giving us examples, a way of perceiving it. The fact that I agree with them, like to imagine it that way, doesn't make it scripture. As such it can't be defended against people who want to bash us for it, so why enter into the conversation.

There are unimaginable numbers of Protestant opinion on different verses of the bible. We don't run around saying some preacher in 1848 said this about revelations, therefore you all think that. But that's the ridiculous standard that want to hold us to.

To say we are being disingenuous, while ignoring the total dishonesty of many of these 'investigators' who claim to be seeking understanding, while in reality are looking for anything to booster their misunderstanding with, is silly. I've been doing this online long enough to know that the fault finders outnumber the knowledge seekers at least ten to one. If I seem preprogrammed to be defensive, thank those that have attacked me for years.