government transparency

[Traveler]

Just wondering. Are some of the things coming out concerning problems inside our government (USA) the result of the government becoming more transparent?

My thought is that we are only seeing the tip of a very big ice berg that has been growing for some time. In other words, nothing new is going on it is just that what has been going on for a long time is finely getting noticed and reported.

Is this "news" going to drive such things deeper and harder to find or will we get serious about ending such things? If you thing something will change - what will change and why will there be a change?

The Traveler

[carlimac]

Just wondering. Are some of the things coming out concerning problems inside our government (USA) the result of the government becoming more transparent?

My thought is that we are only seeing the tip of a very big ice berg that has been growing for some time. In other words, nothing new is going on it is just that what has been going on for a long time is finely getting noticed and reported.

Is this "news" going to drive such things deeper and harder to find or will we get serious about ending such things? If you thing something will change - what will change and why will there be a change?

The Traveler

I can't say I know much about government secrecy. Gut feelings on this are that I don't think the govt. is becoming more transparent. If anything it's becoming less so. But government secrets have gone on for as long as there have been governments. I think we have more people willing to whistle blow and perhaps are less afraid to speak out anyway when attempted to be shushed.

As for your last questions, I think the IRS being such ****heads of late will have to change. They will be under higher scrutiny than before. But because of this, other govt. agencies may work harder to hide their indiscretions. But as technology improves that will become harder to do. Will the govt become more honest and transparent? Probably not. Is there anything we can do about it? Not that I know of besides getting a job with the CIA ourselves.

Google "government secrecy" or search the same phrase on amazon for oodles of information and opinons.

[pam]

It's the last days. It's not going to get any better.

[MorningStar]

I think they're becoming more arrogant. Now it's, "Look what we're doing and getting away with. Oh, so and so lied to Congress? I think I'll give them a promotion!"

[Wordnerd]

I had an interesting conversation about the cell phone records thing this evening with a friends father who had escaped to Canada from east Germany. His words (approximately) "this is what the government did to us, they had files on everyone and they would collect information on you wherever they could. When the wall came down, people went straight to the files to take their records back. A lot a families were destroyed, when people discovered who was talking to the government about them."

Imho thirty years ago, no one, much less elected officials would be condoning this, because the American people would be demanding that heads roll over this type of intrusion.

[talisyn]

Remember the huge SLC Olympic scandal? It was business as usual, but brought to light in the perfect circumstances. I believe we are seeing a combination of people thinking this is how it is so why be secret and people who are totally appalled at the corruption.

[MarginOfError]

With any luck, this will be the kind of thing that brings down the PATRIOT Act.

And remember, the cell phone records...completely legal. Scary, huh?

[skalenfehl]

Just wondering. Are some of the things coming out concerning problems inside our government (USA) the result of the government becoming more transparent?

More transparent? I see the govt being less and less transparent, with every generation. The Lord does not work in secret or in darkness. We, the gentile nation have not yet learned from the mistakes of the past. The Jaredite nation fell because of works in darkness. The Nephite capitol was destroyed because of their pride, wickedness and secret works. And now, here in Utah, where we're supposed to be different, are at it all over again!

NSA Utah Data Center Will Have 5 Zettabytes Of Memory, Equal To 312 Billion iPhones - YouTube

We've learned nothing from the Jaredites, the Nephites and from our Founding Fathers.

[Windseeker]

This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand.

I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom.

That means no more illegal wire-tapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient. That is not who we are. And it is not what is necessary to defeat the terrorists. The FISA court works. The separation of powers works. Our Constitution works. We will again set an example for the world that the law is not subject to the whims of stubborn rulers, and that justice is not arbitrary.

This Administration acts like violating civil liberties is the way to enhance our security. It is not.

- Obama in 2007 about the Bush Administration

[skalenfehl]

"So this is how liberty dies; with thunderous applause". on Vimeo

First, false flag operations, then militarization, then usurpation of power, making everyone believe it's what they needed all along.

Palpatine=Amalickiah=_________________.

Edited June 7, 2013 by skalenfehl

[carlimac]

I guess if I have nothing to hide it shouldn't matter if the govt. has my cell phone records. They won't get much more from mine than "can you help set up for the RS activity?" or "Do you have Grandma's cheescake recipe?" or " How soon will you be home?" Not exactly national bombshells.

I suppose if terrorist attacks can be prevented by digging into phone records, I don't mind. But if the info is used for anything other than national security, someone should be tossed into jail.

[skalenfehl]

But if the info is used for anything other than national security, someone should be tossed into jail.

That's the whole problem. The very fact that private information is being collected is the problem. And this is only what we know about. It's like saying as long as Lehonti and his army doesn't allow Amalickiah to take over the entire Lamanite army. Then they freely gave it to him because Lehonti mysteriously died.

[annewandering]

The worst part of all this is that it is NOT illegal. We let the congress make it legal and we thought it would not be used? Time to open our eyes instead of wearing blinders.

[jerome1232]

I guess if I have nothing to hide it shouldn't matter if the govt. has my cell phone records.

The guilty until proven innocent argument doesn't hold a lot of water with me.

"If you have nothing to hide, why does it matter if we search your home?"

[skalenfehl]

20 And now I, Moroni, do not write the manner of their oaths and combinations, for it hath been made known unto me that they are had among all people, and they are had among the Lamanites.

21 And they have caused the destruction of this people of whom I am now speaking, and also the destruction of the people of Nephi.

22 And whatsoever nation shall uphold such secret combinations, to get power and gain, until they shall spread over the nation, behold, they shall be destroyed; for the Lord will not suffer that the blood of his saints, which shall be shed by them, shall always cry unto him from the ground for vengeance upon them and yet he avenge them not.

23 Wherefore, O ye Gentiles, it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you, which are built up to get power and gain—and the work, yea, even the work of destruction come upon you, yea, even the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.

24 Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you; or wo be unto it, because of the blood of them who have been slain; for they cry from the dust for vengeance upon it, and also upon those who built it up.

[Still_Small_Voice]

I guess if I have nothing to hide it shouldn't matter if the govt. has my cell phone records. They won't get much more from mine than "can you help set up for the RS activity?" or "Do you have Grandma's cheescake recipe?" or " How soon will you be home?" Not exactly national bombshells.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

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This data mining on the common citizen is horrendous and only leads to bad. Knowledge is power. Who can be trusted with this much power?

[skalenfehl]

A friend of mine who lives in Lehi has been an IT admin for many years and I have been chatting regarding the NSA complex in Lehi, UT.

As an IT professional in the security industry, I've known this information for over 15 years

The NSA has been tapping virtually all forms of communication for decades without a warrant

The NSA has had a computer system code named "Eschelon" that taps every phone call in the USA and a good portion of the world.

The computer system listens for certain key words related to terrorist activities and then flags them to have a human analyst listen to them

Hacker groups around the world have been sponsoring "jam Eschelon" days for many years.

The NSA's "official" explanation for the facility is that it is a data center designed to "protect" our nation's banking systems. However, there's no question that the NSA has built it here to utilize the huge multi-lingual resources of the Utah population

So that they can have them listen to recorded calls. The NSA, FBI, and CIA *LOVE* to hire Mormons

[carlimac]

This doesn't surprise me. I don't know if I'm just naive or too trusting but it really doesn't bother me. I wonder if the FBI or CIA would hire a middle age Mormon woman. I've always aspired to that career. I think it started with reading (and re-reading and re-reading) Harriet the Spy as a Kid.

[skalenfehl]

I don't know if I'm just naive or too trusting but it really doesn't bother me.

That's because you don't have a boot on your face. Have you read 1984 by Orwell? Or the Books of Ether, Alma and Helaman in the BoM?

[EarlJibbs]

Thinking like a Conspiracy theorist, does the Government let anything out that it doesnt want out? Like the IRS scandal? Will we find out later down the line that it actually helped someone elses cause? Like getting rid of certain head people in the IRS organization?

Not saying I completely subscribe to the idea, but it sounds highly plausable.

[skalenfehl]

Thinking like a Conspiracy theorist, does the Government let anything out that it doesnt want out? Like the IRS scandal? Will we find out later down the line that it actually helped someone elses cause? Like getting rid of certain head people in the IRS organization?

Not saying I completely subscribe to the idea, but it sounds highly plausable.

I don't know. Mosiah, Alma, Helaman and company knew all about conspiracies, which is why those "plans" were kept from the people. That aside, it begs the question, why do whistleblowers speak up? Are they pawns? Are the powers that be simply proud and looking to flush out patriots who would try to organize? What I do know is what I have learned from inspired authors and from the Book of Mormon. And from history. We are doomed to repeat it. And a line is being drawn in the sand.

[Just_A_Guy]

A friend of mine who lives in Lehi has been an IT admin for many years and I have been chatting regarding the NSA complex in Lehi, UT.

Skalenfehl, it's interesting to hear people talking about this being located to take advantage of Utah's multi-lingual population. The buzz I'm hearing from guardsman up at Camp Williams is that the facility is basically a bunch of (insanely powerful) servers, and the number of jobs it'll bring here is significantly over-hyped.

[skalenfehl]

And it will be so insanely powerful as to require a THREE MILLION GALLON water tank just to run the AC, which will keep the computers cooled. But that's beside the point.

Edited June 7, 2013 by skalenfehl

[Still_Small_Voice]

Thinking like a Conspiracy theorist, does the Government let anything out that it doesnt want out? Like the IRS scandal? Will we find out later down the line that it actually helped someone elses cause? Like getting rid of certain head people in the IRS organization?

Not saying I completely subscribe to the idea, but it sounds highly plausable.

The Internal Revenue Service has been abusing the American people for decades. It is time to abolish the organization, simplify the tax code and just have the State governments collect the tax money. The Federal tax dollars can then be passed to the Federal government through the States. The I.R.S. is unneeded and has proven it is untrustworthy with the power it has been given.

[yjacket]

I guess if I have nothing to hide it shouldn't matter if the govt. has my cell phone records. They won't get much more from mine than "can you help set up for the RS activity?" or "Do you have Grandma's cheescake recipe?" or " How soon will you be home?" Not exactly national bombshells.

I suppose if terrorist attacks can be prevented by digging into phone records, I don't mind. But if the info is used for anything other than national security, someone should be tossed into jail.

It's not so much a matter of do you have anything to hide. It is simply a matter of too much power that has the potential for abuse.

The whole police/security apparatus has been turned on it's head in the last 50 years. The purpose of police is not to prevent crime, but to find and prosecute those who do commit crime. The only people who can prevent crime and stop crime in a broad sense are individuals.

Going down the road we are going as a society leads to a paranoid environment where everyone is a potential "threat". The neighbor across the street, the person you met at the gym. The messaging in the "See something, say something" is evident of it.

I have nothing to hide, but because individuals know others are "watching" them so their behavior becomes modified, people talk differently for the fear of being perceived as doing something wrong. For example, I know if I "looked" like a Muslim, I would sure be watching my behavior - regardless of the fact that religion has very little to do with why Bin Laden attacked the US.

So once it becomes an established practice that this data-mining is allowed it will exist in perpetuity. Now what happens in 10-20 years when a new "threat" emerges, instead of "communism" or "terrorism" it is something else. As now the battlefield (as one Senator said) is at home. What happens if someone is elected President who doesn't particularly like those who oppose him? What happens if the halls of Congress are attacked during his presidency? Now who becomes a target.

I find it fascinating at how much we take for granted our freedoms and how willingly people seem to give them up. And how, well it can't happen here . . . I guess we think because we are the "greatest and most free and most blessed country every to walk the face of the earth" we think we are immune to the nature and politics of power. We only became the most free country because some very wise individuals understood the nature of power.

You mention if it is used in any other manner than national security someone should go to jail. Well I guess it all depends on what your definition of "national security" is. NS to one is not the same as NS to another. National Security could mean attacking another country who threatens, or indefinitely holding someone because they said something that could be construed as a threat.

When one has access to such power, it will be used for political purposes.