SL Tribune: Mormon church is evolving, Steve Young’s wife tells LGBT crowd

[Guest]

what's the benefit of intercourse with a man who had a vasectomy

or what if one (or both) of the union cannot have children?

and also, a benefit to who? society? why does society benefit from people doing it?

or not doing it, why is it bad that people have premarital sex, or have a child and never get married but stay together

maybe they're atheists and don't believe in marriage

what if its a polygamy style thing, still atheists, but a strong home?

does an atheist union benefit anyone?

The answers to all these revolve around the raising of children. Natural children, foster children, adopted children, etc.

Why can't brothers and sisters or first cousins marry? Because of the genetic impact to children.

But, what if they both get sterilized before they marry? Because the normalization of first cousins marrying poses a risk to the genetic make-up of children...

Nobody seems to care that siblings and first cousins can't marry.

[Lakumi]

In LDS theology, romantic love has a HUGE benefit for a heterosexual couple. That argument may not translate well into the political sphere--but as long as we're talking about relationship norms on an LDS-oriented website, it's kind of hard to just ignore that theology.

true but what about all those who aren't LDS or religious, love sometimes is a second fiddle to other things like money, or social status, etc.

I understand your point entirely but if it's all going to go back to LDS theology then there is nothing I can say

I'm not LDS you are- our viewpoints differ extremely, so we're not going to get anywhere. (even if I do become LDS, which I donno if they'll want me considering some of my beliefs but that's another topic)

[prisonchaplain]

. . . take a minute and think about what is actually the difference between normalizing behavior and destigmatizing behavior?

I'd like to know what the difference is. I was going right into the whole "We cannot make sin okay" mode, and this phrase put the breaks on. So, what is the difference? My rough understanding of stigmatize is to put badness or negativivity on the target. If so, are we not obligated by scripture to stigmatize activity between two of the same gender? What am I missing here?

[Traveler]

How about this one, Traveler--destigmatizing homosexuality prevents homosexuals from being bullied and committing suicide.

Now before you do your mental gymnastics to explain your way through that one, take a minute and think about what is actually the difference between normalizing behavior and destigmatizing behavior?

I will suggest an experiment for anyone to try if they wish. It is a little bit of role playing - but go to a religious forum website -- as hostile to homosexual as you can find and tell the posters that you are a straight individual that is considering giving up the heterosexual lifestyle to live the rest of your life as a homosexual.

Now try going to a homosexual friendly website dominated with gay posters - as friendly to the gay life style as you can find. Tell the posters that you are gay and considering giving up the gay lifestyle to live the rest of your life straight.

I submit in all honesty that destigmatizing behavior of a straight person trying to become a homosexual is not as difficult compared to a gay person trying to become straight.

I understand that straight individuals will have difficulty helping gay individuals trying to live straight or uncomfortable with being gay and that religious individuals need to overcome prejudices. But I honestly believe the the venomous reaction of the gay community is just as likely or more so to contribute to a suicide of an individual that is uncomfortable with the gay lifestyle as straight society.

In short destigmatizing behavior plays both ways and I do not see that homosexuality scores as a benefit. But if you have any data to show or possibly show otherwise - I am interested.

Using the prime parameter and Chaos Theory - I submit that if tomorrow morning that everybody in the world woke up tomorrow completely straight and that homosexuality was never to appear again in human society - that it would be difficult to even theorize that human society would be that different 10,000 years from now - that any trends would change. On the other hand if everybody woke up tomorrow completely gay without any straight inclinations and if heterosexuality was to never appear again in human history - that in 10,000 years from now there would be no human society.

But many would argue that Chaos Theory is not important enough to consider. Hmmmmm - there goes all the arguments concerning endangered species and global warming being a problem - Without Chaos Theory there is no arguments for environmentalism or global warming

But I am reminded of something my mission president said many years ago. If someone is trying to have a rational discussion with logic and understanding - the first thing one will learn is that when personal pleasure is involved there can be no logic or rational understanding.

The Traveler

[Leah]

true but what about all those who aren't LDS or religious, love sometimes is a second fiddle to other things like money, or social status, etc.

I understand your point entirely but if it's all going to go back to LDS theology then there is nothing I can say

I'm not LDS you are- our viewpoints differ extremely, so we're not going to get anywhere. (even if I do become LDS, which I donno if they'll want me considering some of my beliefs but that's another topic)

Well, this is an LDS website, so answers rooted in LDS beliefs are to be expected.

[Lakumi]

I will suggest an experiment for anyone to try if they wish. It is a little bit of role playing - but go to a religious forum website -- as hostile to homosexual as you can find and tell the posters that you are a straight individual that is considering giving up the heterosexual lifestyle to live the rest of your life as a homosexual.

Now try going to a homosexual friendly website dominated with gay posters - as friendly to the gay life style as you can find. Tell the posters that you are gay and considering giving up the gay lifestyle to live the rest of your life straight. The Traveler

how many gay people do you actually know?

it's not a collective idea where everyone has the same thoughts and opinions

you think the gay people would be more harsh? that's insane

I've never had any gay people tell me "how could you not want to be bisexual, you're a horrible human being" or some such thing

I have had religious people tell me they want me to die and all sorts

I don't often hear gay people hating everyone and telling people they are wrong and will suffer horribly for all time

I hear that from religious people all the time...

[Traveler]

true but what about all those who aren't LDS or religious, love sometimes is a second fiddle to other things like money, or social status, etc.

I understand your point entirely but if it's all going to go back to LDS theology then there is nothing I can say

I'm not LDS you are- our viewpoints differ extremely, so we're not going to get anywhere. (even if I do become LDS, which I donno if they'll want me considering some of my beliefs but that's another topic)

This reminds me of something my brother said concerning compound interest. He said the way to tell if someone understand compound interest is if they pay it or if it is paid to them.

I understand that some think they want certain things so much that they are willing to pay compound interest to get it. But for anyone that really understands compound interest realizes that the "hidden costs" almost always out weighs the benefits. What I am attempting to bring to the surface are benefits to be weighted against the "hidden costs". But if I am talking to someone that really does not even know what the benefits are (beyond what is wanted) - I am not sure if it is even possible to deal with their thinking should we ever even try to get to considering the "hidden costs".

The Traveler

Edited September 16, 2013 by Traveler

[Lakumi]

This reminds me of something my brother said concerning compound interest. He said the way to tell if someone understand compound interest is if they pay it or if it is paid to them.

I understand that some think they want certain things so much that they are willing to pay compound interest to get it. But for anyone that really understands compound interest realizes that the "hidden costs" almost always out weighs the benefits. What I am attempting to bring to the surface are benefits to be weighted against the "hidden costs". But if I am talking to someone that really does not even know what the benefits are (beyond what is wanted) - I am not sure if it is even possible to deal with their thinking should we ever even try to get to considering the "hidden costs".

The Traveler

there's no talking with you

you just don't listen to what I am trying to say

I guess there is no benefit to it, not that my opinion matters in the grand scheme of things.

I could try and explain more but its like talking to a wall with you, and you'll parade this around like you outwitted me.

I give up with you

[Traveler]

how many gay people do you actually know?

it's not a collective idea where everyone has the same thoughts and opinions

you think the gay people would be more harsh? that's insane

I've never had any gay people tell me "how could you not want to be bisexual, you're a horrible human being" or some such thing

I have had religious people tell me they want me to die and all sorts

I don't often hear gay people hating everyone and telling people they are wrong and will suffer horribly for all time

I hear that from religious people all the time...

How may gay? - Hundreds. My best friend's brother was gay and died of aids. When I was in the army I weighed 115 lbs and looked 13 - Seldom did 3 days go by that someone gay did not introduce themselves to me. I can give you a very long list of "come on" lines used by gays to try to entice straight guys - Including; "You will never know if your are gay unless you try it!". Why would anyone say that if they really believed a person was born with a particular sexual orientation?

There are sever gay individuals in my personal social circle - some are LDS - or at least trying to be LDS and I am keenly aware of the pressure they have from gay friends. I am most disappointed that you have difficulty accepting such a possibility. My son - #2, is involved in the movie industry and many of his friends are gay (excellent actors BTW) and have been with our family for a week long river white water rafting expedition.

On my mission I baptized a gay guy that has since lived a straight life style. And you know what most gays say about that? They say (without knowing anything about the person at all) Oh - he could not really have been gay then.

I realize that many gay individuals are wonderful people that as a person have many good things to contribute to society. I also believe that there are really very few wicked people - and that most people would be great benefits to society if they would exercise discipline. And I would submit that without discipline - no one will benefit society or accomplish anything of benefit for themselves or anyone else.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

there's no talking with you

you just don't listen to what I am trying to say

I guess there is no benefit to it, not that my opinion matters in the grand scheme of things.

I could try and explain more but its like talking to a wall with you, and you'll parade this around like you outwitted me.

I give up with you

As a scientist and engineer I can honestly say there is less likelihood that a concept or idea is valid that cannot stand scrutiny than a concept that on the surface sound silly but can withstand scrutiny. I have always believed that if someone really believes something and has thought it through carefully - considering objectively the options and opposition they would have the guts to present it even to their harshest critics for open discussion. But if they are full of doubts they will hide it from the light of scrutiny as much as they can.

Can there be open and objective discussion?

The Traveler

[Leah]

how many gay people do you actually know?

it's not a collective idea where everyone has the same thoughts and opinions

you think the gay people would be more harsh? that's insane

I've never had any gay people tell me "how could you not want to be bisexual, you're a horrible human being" or some such thing

I have had religious people tell me they want me to die and all sorts

I don't often hear gay people hating everyone and telling people they are wrong and will suffer horribly for all time

I hear that from religious people all the time...

Have any of those so-called religious people who you say told you they wanted you to die been members of the LDS church? If so, do you assume that that is what the church teaches? Because it most certainly is not, and with the slightest bit of research, you would know that.

Gay people tell religious people they are "wrong" all the time. To their faces. In print. In pretty much every form of communication imaginable. I have a friend who who has had articles written about him, calling him all sorts of despicable names, because he dares to stand up for church teachings. He is filled with nothing but love for other people. He's not the hater in this scenario.

Can you show me where the LDS church says that gay people will "suffer horribly for all time".

It's not religion that makes people hate. Hate is an equal opportunity state. There are those individuals who use their religion as an excuse to hate, but they clearly don't understand what our Heavenly Father teaches.

There are just as many people - probably more - with no religion, who spew hatred. Should they be given a pass because they aren't "religious"?

[Swiper]

Until Steve states his views on this or any other subject I have a hard time automatically thinking he feels the same way as his wife does.

There is a link to the recording of his own speech in the original post.

[Swiper]

I just don't like the idea that it appears that Steve Young and his wife are speaking on behalf of the Church and making promises/predictions that they are not qualified to make. Celebrity status only goes so far.

I'll be honest, my first thought was: "Football player and his wife make comments. News at 11." I suppose Steve Young is famous but it's pretty much the comments of a pair of random people as far as Church hierarchy goes.

I guess it all depends on whether or not church leaders can be influenced by internal or external pressures.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Swiper

[Tomtom]

Bottom line is been gay it wasn't right it will never be right. there is no "evolving" in this subject. Wrong behavior will never be right! Now we should love all regardless their way of life!

[Swiper]

Bottom line is been gay it wasn't right it will never be right. there is no "evolving" in this subject. Wrong behavior will never be right! Now we should love all regardless their way of life!

Yeah, I can feel the love.

[Tomtom]

Can you really or you just felt offended ? Because really everybody knows or have a gay person in their family or as a friend, and everybody feels that they have to be " political correct " to don't hurt their feelings! Wrong is wrong, is not matter of judging, is what the scriptures says!

[Anddenex]

I don't often hear gay people hating everyone and telling people they are wrong and will suffer horribly for all time

I hear that from religious people all the time...

I have heard these statements from both parties all the time. Just go on youtube if you want evidence.

I have even read gays specifying Mormons should be eradicated from our society. You will want to look a little closer.

[jerome1232]

Perhaps I'm off, but a big problem is some approach each other with the objective to win, the objective is to reach a shared understanding.

When two parties begin reaching for shared understanding rather than victory, debate becomes dialogue.

(I started this post with the intention of linking Yes - Roundabout on youtube to make fun of the way this *dialogue* is going in circles)

[Lakumi]

Have any of those so-called religious people who you say told you they wanted you to die been members of the LDS church? If so, do you assume that that is what the church teaches? Because it most certainly is not, and with the slightest bit of research, you would know that.

no, no Mormons have told me they want me to die...

I have never actually heard of a Mormon anywhere saying they want someone to die

And yes I already know that's not an LDS teaching, they gave me the gospel principles book, which I read in a corn field:lol:

[Still_Small_Voice]

I am not seeing the content of the talks given by the Youngs. I am getting a feeling the message is not being told for what was really said.

I also believe the Salt Lake Tribune gets it wrong a lot.

Edit: After listening to Steve Young's talk I can say the summary of his talk is trust in LORD even though you have to do things blind sometimes. Have faith in Jesus Christ as He is our Savior. I did not listen to his wife's talk yet.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Still_Small_Voice

[Jenamarie]

Somebody may have already posted this, but here's a

on YouTube.

[mordorbund]

I'll be honest, my first thought was: "Football player and his wife make comments. News at 11." I suppose Steve Young is famous but it's pretty much the comments of a pair of random people as far as Church hierarchy goes.

History paints a different picture. The priesthood ban was obviously lifted because Church leadership loved BYU sports (scroll down to 1970).

[pam]

I take everything that comes from the Salt Lake Tribulation with a grain of salt anyway.

[Guest]

So would you say a better name would be the Grain of Salt Lake Tribulation?

[Maureen]

The answers to all these revolve around the raising of children. Natural children, foster children, adopted children, etc.

Why can't brothers and sisters or first cousins marry? Because of the genetic impact to children.

But, what if they both get sterilized before they marry? Because the normalization of first cousins marrying poses a risk to the genetic make-up of children...

Nobody seems to care that siblings and first cousins can't marry.

That's not exactly true. In Canada first cousins can marry. I have a friend whose parents are first cousins.

Facts about cousin marriage | Cousin Marriage Resources

M.