Oh my heck! It's another Ordain Women thread! (A poll, actually . . .)

[applepansy]

And in the context of Ordain Women (which is what this thread is about) what is unequal? Last I checked the church was full of and overflowing with opportunities to serve and bless the lives of all kinds of people in various ways. The only acts of service I see being limited to priesthood holders is the performance of the ordinances of the gospel. And only God can say what is an acceptable performance of his ordinances.

The only other thing I can think of is the idea of priesthood having a certain 'prestige' of some kind. Section 121 has some very blunt things to say to men who try to take priesthood honor unto themselves. I see no reason why it wouldn't apply to any woman who seeks to do the same.

Thank you. Those were my thoughts too.

[Just_A_Guy]

The only other thing I can think of is the idea of priesthood having a certain 'prestige' of some kind. Section 121 has some very blunt things to say to men who try to take priesthood honor unto themselves. I see no reason why it wouldn't apply to any woman who seeks to do the same.

It has been interesting to me, that a lot of the people who support ordaining women feel that women's ordination should be discretionary for the women involved. But on the other hand, I don't think anyone on that side of the aisle is prepared to argue that a male, by virtue of his gender, has greater obligations towards the priesthood than a female has. So logically it would seem that most supporters of women's ordination feel that priesthood ordination should be discretionary for males as well, and therefore (by extension; and I don't mean this to be pejorative) that they consider D&C 84:42 as being more or less toothless.

Which presents a troubling thought: If we, as priesthood holders, have carried out our duties in such a way as to give non-priesthood-holders the impression that we think our service is optional, or that it's supposed to be easy or materially rewarding--maybe we've been doing it wrong?

[RMGuy]

Interesting thoughts JAG. I think it should be optional, at least from the position that I think many, many, many men and boys are ordained because that is what you do at 12 or 18 instead of that is I want to do to serve The Lord. If the standard was such that the individual had to independently ask for it and explain why they wanted it, and how they would use it (and we expected really good answers to those questions before we just "gave" them the priesthood, I think we would have a much more dynamic if a considerably smaller group of priesthood holders. Now I think many take that obligation without a serious thought. Not saying that this is right, but rather just how I see it.

[Guest]

Interesting thoughts JAG. I think it should be optional, at least from the position that I think many, many, many men and boys are ordained because that is what you do at 12 or 18 instead of that is I want to do to serve The Lord. If the standard was such that the individual had to independently ask for it and explain why they wanted it, and how they would use it (and we expected really good answers to those questions before we just "gave" them the priesthood, I think we would have a much more dynamic if a considerably smaller group of priesthood holders. Now I think many take that obligation without a serious thought. Not saying that this is right, but rather just how I see it.

No, RM. My son just turned 12. He didn't just get the Priesthood because that's what they do at 12. He got the Priesthood because he wanted it and qualified for it. If this was not the case, he would not get the Priesthood until he did. We were very clear about this just like he didn't just get baptized at age 8 because he turned 8... he wanted it and qualified for it.

So, in my perspective, this is a "Parenting" or "Ward" issue and not necessarily a Church issue.

Priesthood is not optional for men in the same manner that marriage isn't. Yes, yes, yes - you're going to harass me for those who are single for life - I don't see this as optional but merely that the opportunity hasn't presented itself or the circumstances prevented it from happening... same with Priesthood.

And if I may interrupt our scheduled programming for a little pat my son on the back moment: My son gave his first Sacrament Meeting talk 3 weeks ago... I was blown away. He prepared his talk on paper with fasting and prayer. I went through it and we changed some stuff - making it flow better, etc. He practiced delivering it. Then come Sunday, he stood infront of the mic and gave his TALK. He didn't read the paper - he glanced at it once in a while - but he TALKED. Looked everyone in the eye like he was having a one-on-one conversation with them about something. He told me that the Spirit was so strong that he didn't even feel nervous at all - he knew what he wanted to say and so he just said it just like he would at the school cafeteria to his friends... The force is strong with that padawan. I just love him to bits.

Edited March 28, 2014 by anatess

[RMGuy]

I wouldn't harass you Anatess. In fact,I would congratulate you. It sounds like you are doing a great job as a parent. Please note that I didn't saw all or every Ym gets the priesthood this way, just that very many do, and that I believe is a problem for those individuals, the ones they are supposed to serve, and the church.

[estradling75]

Which presents a troubling thought: If we, as priesthood holders, have carried out our duties in such a way as to give non-priesthood-holders the impression that we think our service is optional, or that it's supposed to be easy or materially rewarding--maybe we've been doing it wrong?

I think that is very much part of the problem. Many are called.. few are chosen. We get chosen when we respond to the voice of the good shepherd and do what he tells us to do, magnifying our calling etc. Which is quite a bit different then doing what we think the bare minimum is to get by (I know I have operated at the bare minimum much more then I should)

Of course this mindset isn't exclusively and priesthood or guy thing.

[The Folk Prophet]

I wouldn't harass you Anatess. In fact,I would congratulate you. It sounds like you are doing a great job as a parent. Please note that I didn't saw all or every Ym gets the priesthood this way, just that very many do, and that I believe is a problem for those individuals, the ones they are supposed to serve, and the church.

Just as with baptism, the only ones who should receive the priesthood are those who want it. If there are cases of it happening as you are suggesting (and I believe there are) then it is wrong. It should not be happening that way. Yes, every boy who turns 12 should get the priesthood...but that's because every boy who turns 12 should want the priesthood. Just every child who turns 8 should be baptized, because they want to. Anyone who does not desire these things should not move forward. And no parent or leader should be coercing children into baptism or men into the priesthood or others into any ordinance against their will.

What I mean is, it already should work the way that you are suggesting that it should work. Imperfections occur, sure. But not by policy or design.

[The Folk Prophet]

I think that is very much part of the problem. Many are called.. few are chosen. We get chosen when we respond to the voice of the good shepherd and do what he tells us to do, magnifying our calling etc. Which is quite a bit different then doing what we think the bare minimum is to get by (I know I have operated at the bare minimum much more then I should)

Of course this mindset isn't exclusively and priesthood or guy thing.

And service is not an exclusive prerogative of those with the priesthood. We are all called to serve.

[Guest]

I wouldn't harass you Anatess. In fact,I would congratulate you. It sounds like you are doing a great job as a parent. Please note that I didn't saw all or every Ym gets the priesthood this way, just that very many do, and that I believe is a problem for those individuals, the ones they are supposed to serve, and the church.

Oh no, I didn't mean that you said every YM gets the priesthood that way - only that if they do get it that way, it's not how they're supposed to get it... so the Priesthood is still not optional. Make sense?

And I am doing the best I know how on parenting - our home is very far from a "great job". We're just surviving day by day with all the challenges, some of which, I can't overcome, and a lot of which are course corrections from past parenting mistakes.

[Dravin]

Responding directly to the poll question:

I put I was ambivalent because my position is that I support the Church's decision, regardless of what it is, and the abolition of Relief Society or other organizational changes doesn't change that support. In short, while I may have opinions concerning how some individuals choose to act based on their idea of if women should be ordained, or not ordained, my position is that the core issue is out of my hands. If God, through the leadership of his Church, reveals that women are to be ordained, or not ordained, and there are attendant organizational changes, or no attendant changes, then I support that decision. It is neither my priesthood to decide who is ordained unto it nor is it my stewardship in the Church to decide how it is organized.

[RMGuy]

Wow! I thread in wish not everyone agrees, but everyone is civically and respectfully listening to others and seeking understanding. Color me impressed!

[MarginOfError]

Wow! I thread in wish not everyone agrees, but everyone is civically and respectfully listening to others and seeking understanding. Color me impressed!

Bite me!

[Just_A_Guy]

Bite me!

(Did JAG just thank that post?

Why, yes. Yes, JAG did.)

[heronephi]

If God wants things changed he will do it in spit of what we want or think. That being said I do not think things are going to change. Things are the way he wants it. I do not believe it will change in heaven so I don't think it will change here. God is eternal the system is eternal it will not change... For whatever it is worth, that is my opinion so go ahead and want whatever you want and get all hot and bothered it will not make any difference to anyone but you. The choice is simple get over it.

[Lakumi]

If God wants things changed he will do it in spit of what we want or think. That being said I do not think things are going to change. Things are the way he wants it. I do not believe it will change in heaven so I don't think it will change here. God is eternal the system is eternal it will not change... For whatever it is worth, that is my opinion so go ahead and want whatever you want and get all hot and bothered it will not make any difference to anyone but you. The choice is simple get over it.

I do wonder though, when times change things change with them, or get left in the dust.

Something no church had has to contend with exists in our modern day-the internet.

This effects them more then anyone ever thought, and it is no secret that younger people (namely 20-30) aren't involved with religion.

I don't pretend to have a large circle of friends, but it is interesting to note that none of them are religious-and I didn't meet them in the same places, it just is the sign of the times.

My generation is fickle and easily connected to information and eachother. That changes things, even its unpleasant to think of...

[skippy740]

From the Ordain Women website (no, I won't post the link here):

Mission:

The fundamental tenets of Mormonism support gender equality: God is male and female, father and mother, and all of us can progress to be like them someday. Priesthood, we are taught, is essential to this process. Ordain Women believes women must be ordained in order for our faith to reflect the equity and expansiveness of these teachings.

Last year the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reaffirmed its commitment to equality: “The Book of Mormon states, ‘black and white, bond and free, male and female; … all are alike unto God’ (2 Nephi 26:33). This is the Church’s official teaching.” Ordain Women embraces this statement. We are committed to work for equality and the ordination of Mormon women to the priesthood.

Based on the principle of thoughtful, faith-affirming strategic action, Ordain Women aspires to create a space for Mormon women to articulate issues of gender inequality they may be hesitant to raise alone. As a group we intend to put ourselves in the public eye and call attention to the need for the ordination of Mormon women to the priesthood. We sincerely ask our leaders to take this matter to the Lord in prayer.

Um... if they do not know who God the Father is... that is a core problem within this organization's movement.

They intend to make themselves a nuisance until they get their way.

FAQ:

Why is ordination necessary for women in the LDS Church?

[...]

This lack of female authority does not stop at the church doors. The Church’s Proclamation on the Family declares that men preside over their wives and families, thus preserving an antiquated and unequal model in both the domestic and ecclesiastical realms.

They are against the Family Proclamation.

Why are Mormons resistant to women’s ordination?

[...]

Ordain Women asserts that priesthood must be re-envisioned as a power that transcends gender and is exercised by both men and women for the benefit of all.

In essence, they want the entire Church structure to be changed based on their views.

In short, they are co-opting the race and priesthood angles to suit their agenda. However, unlike the issues of Race and the Priesthood... there is no scriptural precedent for women to hold the priesthood and be in an office & quorum within that priesthood. If it were to be so, it should be in the D&C.

In my opinion, they are a group of apostates who should be treated accordingly.

Speeches

Discipleship includes good citizenship; and in this connection, if you are careful students of the statements of the modern prophets, you will have noticed that with rare exceptions—especially when the First Presidency has spoken out—the concerns expressed have been over moral issues, not issues between political parties. The declarations are about principles, not people, and causes, not candidates. On occasions, at other levels in the Church, a few have not been so discreet, so wise, or so inspired.

But make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters; in the months and years ahead, events will require of each member that he or she decide whether or not he or she will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions (see 1 Kings 18:21).

President Marion G. Romney said, many years ago, that he had "never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, or political life" (CR, April 1941, p. 123). This is a hard doctrine, but it is a particularly vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked. In short, brothers and sisters, not being ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ includes not being ashamed of the prophets of Jesus Christ.

Edited March 28, 2014 by skippy740

[Backroads]

Apparently the OW also wants to help with moving.

[The Folk Prophet]

Apparently the OW also wants to help with moving.

My wife already gets up and helps people move with me. She attends every service project as well. Since when do women not already have the right to help with moves?

[Guest]

Need laugh button.

[Sunday21]

I wonder to what extent the priesthood has always been restricted, to Levites, to white males, to males, in order to make the point that the priesthood is a privilege. Also perhaps to avoid priesthood responsibilities being dumped on an already burdened wife and mother?

[SpiritDragon]

I wanted to start my post by saying the "best" answer wasn't available that would convey my feelings. I support God's will... if this means the Priesthood responsibility lies with the men while the sisters reap the blessings of righteous men, awesome. If this means sisters are to one day have the priesthood; well I'll struggle with that one because it goes against my understanding of how the priesthood works, but if it is God's will and I gain a testimony of it than I would support it as well.

I fear if women were to receive the priesthood that a lot of people would leave the church. I think it would rock the foundations of testimony in many; especially if it seemed like the church was caving to pressure from a fringe feminist wing asserting pressure in that direction. How long will it be until other "squeaky wheel" groups start petitioning for changes in the church like they do in government.

Having the priesthood is no more of an equality issue than having distinct anatomy. Sisters are welcome to serve and grow just as the brethren can.

There is a serious problem with the idea that "men" don't lead the church as well as a woman would/could, which seems to be a prevalent idea I get from groups like OW. My testimony is founded on the idea that Christ is the head of the church and leads it through his servants (the church is not lead by men). It is a pride issue, believing they know better than God how His church should be run... sounds a little like someone fallen from heaven to me.

The point is it is not our place to force our will on the church. This is exactly what the whole concept of pushing for changes such as this entails. We are to humbly seek the Lord's will and obey, not to tell the Lord how it should be done in our "enlightened" society.

I can see that we have those here that do support women getting the priesthood. Could someone explain to me why, if not pride? How does being ordained create equality. God has already said that man and woman are equal, why should we dispute this?

[Drpepper]

Sometimes I wonder if women want to be men. In the temple the roles of both are set out pretty clear and they work together well. However over the last 30 years women have pushed to be equal to men and have what men have. The spin off to this is that I meet with a lot of men who are confused, depressed and uncertain about who they are, what there role is, and how they contribute? This feeling among men is on the rise. The flip side is do women really want their roles and men's as well? I also meet with women who are overwhelmed, tired, exhausted simply run off their feet. How is having the priesthood going to lighten their burden? I'm not against women having the priesthood I just struggle to see how this will further bless their lives. What is their to gain?

[pam]

Sometimes I wonder if women want to be men. In the temple the roles of both are set out pretty clear and they work together well. However over the last 30 years women have pushed to be equal to men and have what men have. The spin off to this is that I meet with a lot of men who are confused, depressed and uncertain about who they are, what there role is, and how they contribute? This feeling among men is on the rise. The flip side is do women really want their roles and men's as well? I also meet with women who are overwhelmed, tired, exhausted simply run off their feet. How is having the priesthood going to lighten their burden? I'm not against women having the priesthood I just struggle to see how this will further bless their lives. What is their to gain?

I've really wondered the same thing. What would having the priesthood do to their lives? I can't see that it would lighten their load as it just brings more responsibility.

And then at what point does it stop? So if and I say this hypothetically...if women were ordained to the priesthood..does that then mean places in the 12 apostles? A prophet that is a female?

I think men do a wonderful job in fulfilling their priesthood roles. I'm happy in my role as a female.

[Lakumi]

I know the Community of Christ (aka the RLDS) has women in the priesthood and their 12. How's it working for them? I know the two churches aren't bff's (and one is far bigger then the other) but they certainly don't have the sort of bad blood the Catholic's and Protestant's did/do.

I admit to knowing far less about the CoC/RLDS then I do about the LDS (they don't have folk coming to my door to answer my questions lol)

[skippy740]

The CoC/RLDS has largely abandoned much that made them unique from other Christian denominations.

Edited March 29, 2014 by skippy740