Which is the dominant eternal principle

[Traveler]

I struggle with two personal principals that seem to be in conflict to me.

 

The first principal is that of agency that we determine our ultimate destiny.   What we do is our business and we have the right to chose as we see fit according to our understanding.  That we are unique and independent and the results of our destiny will be of our own making - good or bad - but it is uniquely ours.

 

The other principle is what I call the Avatar principle - taken from the movie "Avatar".  This principle is that all things are connected and that what we do ripples through directly to others be it for good or evil.   That we are in essence a cog in an eternal cosmic machine and eventually our fate is not just our doing but is a product of all that takes place around us as well.

 

As I have discussed this with others (mostly LDS) they seem to think there is something of both.  That I can sort of understand - perhaps - but which one dominates?  and when does one takes presidence over the other and why?

 

I am tending towards the second principle - I wonder if many overplay, overuse and over think the doctrine of agency.

[NeuroTypical]

The first principal is that of agency that we determine our ultimate destiny.   What we do is our business and we have the right to chose as we see fit according to our understanding.

 

From my perspective:

Destiny = our choices + our consequences + others' consequences that impact us + random chance + divine intervention.

 

In other words, no, we can't really remove the consequences of others actions just because those consequences would keep us from attaining what we want our destiny to be.  

 

Also, I don't think it's usually possible to know one's destiny before they've attained it.  Even for those foreordained to things.  Too many stories of "I thought I was going to be X, but God showed me He had Y in mind."

[The Folk Prophet]

The second is no gospel principle at all. Not sure why any LDS person would ascribe to any principle that is directly contrary to an eternal, declared gospel principle.

[Guest]

I agree with TFP 100%.  The 2nd "principle" is a twisting of the concept of being "acted upon".  Our eternal destiny is not determined by what others do but by how we react to it.

[askandanswer]

I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding the OP, but here is my attempt to respond.

 

I think that everything that God created is imbued, to a greater or lesser extent, with a portion of His spirit. Quite possibly, all of His creations might also possess a degree of intelligence. To that extent, and in that manner, we are all interconnected. It might also be, although it doesn’t necessarily follow from the idea of being interconnected, that we all affect, and are affected by, the environment in which we live. Being a part of this environment - this eternal cosmic machine (for want of a better term) - might shape, but not dictate, or control, our choices. 

[Traveler]

The second is no gospel principle at all. Not sure why any LDS person would ascribe to any principle that is directly contrary to an eternal, declared gospel principle.

 

D&C 84:110

Also the body hath need of every member, that all may be edified together, that the system may be kept perfect.

 

 

D&C 128:18

I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

[The Folk Prophet]

D&C 84:110

Also the body hath need of every member, that all may be edified together, that the system may be kept perfect.

 

 

D&C 128:18

I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

 

Like anatess said. A clear twisting of things.

[Vort]

I agree with TFP 100%.  The 2nd "principle" is a twisting of the concept of being "acted upon".  Our eternal destiny is not determined by what others do but by how we react to it.

I'm not sure I agree with TFP 100% or disagree with Traveler 100%. On the contrary, the very nature of many of our covenants and (especially) of our promised blessings is communal. There is an undeniable collective element to eternal life and salvation.

[The Folk Prophet]

Okay...upon Vort's response I re-read Traveler's initial post and can see the point.

 

The part I take exception to is: "I wonder if many overplay, overuse and over think the doctrine of agency." And the implication that our agency is anything less than our absolute own choice for salvation or damnation.

 

But as a theoretical idea, yes, we are, for example, clearly dependent on God for exaltation, and had He not given us the opportunity (including giving us our agency) we could not exalt ourselves. So there is a level of dependency, yes.

[The Folk Prophet]

I'm not sure I agree with TFP 100% or disagree with Traveler 100%. On the contrary, the very nature of many of our covenants and (especially) of our promised blessings is communal. There is an undeniable collective element to eternal life and salvation.

 

So this communal thing, other than the strengthening we can receive from others, is honestly something I've never truly understood. That, of course, has no bearing on the reality of it. But I've never understood the eternal need to be sealed father to son, mother to daughter. The only sealing that seems requisite from a logical perspective, is the husband/wife sealing. That, of course, being related to the fact that our very exaltation is about being an eternal couple and our eternal parenthood and continuation of seed, etc. But how being sealed father to son up through to Adam plays into that I do not understand beyond the simple matter that God has proclaimed it necessary. Thoughts?

[Vort]

One thought is that we as Westerners, and especially as Americans, have been indoctrinated from birth with a strong individualistic streak that colors our perceptions of all such things. If our perspective were less skewed, we might understand things that, for now, seem odd or even incongruous. The same applies to all other people and cultures, of course, only in different areas or from different perspectives. We're all blind and groping at the same elephant, describing it from incomplete data.

[The Folk Prophet]

It is, however, a truism, I believe, that God will save all who come unto him and do His will. We, of course, cannot do His will without others -- as we cannot, for example, baptize ourselves -- and in that regard we are also dependent on others. I believe this to be the core of the idea that we cannot be saved without them and they without us. It comes down to ordinances.

 

In theory then, I suppose, that if no one but a single man on the earth ever exercised agency to do righteousness, that the one single man could not be exalted. But this is such an impossible theory that it's almost silly to discuss. At the core base of numeric savable minimums, I suppose, there must be 4 righteous -- two to baptize (and other ordinances) each other and their wives, and two wives to marry eternally.

 

Of course God knew that there would be more than one righteous man on the earth at any time, and accordingly could freely give us our agency to choose our own salvation or damnation. And, according to His knowledge as well, he gave us baptism for the dead for those (many) instances when ordinances were unavailable for whatever reason. Thereby (among other things) agency remains in full force.

[Finrock]

Could Jesus Christ be exalted and ascend to the Father without us?

 

-Finrock

Edited July 15, 2015 by Finrock

[Jane_Doe]

I struggle with two personal principals that seem to be in conflict to me.

 

The first principal is that of agency that we determine our ultimate destiny.   What we do is our business and we have the right to chose as we see fit according to our understanding.  That we are unique and independent and the results of our destiny will be of our own making - good or bad - but it is uniquely ours.

 

The other principle is what I call the Avatar principle - taken from the movie "Avatar".  This principle is that all things are connected and that what we do ripples through directly to others be it for good or evil.   That we are in essence a cog in an eternal cosmic machine and eventually our fate is not just our doing but is a product of all that takes place around us as well.

 

As I have discussed this with others (mostly LDS) they seem to think there is something of both.  That I can sort of understand - perhaps - but which one dominates?  and when does one takes presidence over the other and why?

 

I am tending towards the second principle - I wonder if many overplay, overuse and over think the doctrine of agency.

 

The first one = very much Gospel principle (War in Heaven was fought over it).

 

Second one = .... well no man is an island, but we all do make our own choices.

 

The way I see it: the choices other people make set the stage on which you are born (like parents' choices).  Now, what you do on the stage is up to you.  Now, how does the stage affect your choices and accountability?  

 

The scriptures talk about one stage a lot (the devotion to the Gospel your parent's have), so I'll use that as an example.  

 

Example stage #1: Your parents are goodly parents and teach you the Gospel.

               Your actions: do you accept the Gospel or not?  Do you live to the best Good you know how?

 

Example stage #2: Your parents abusive drug addicts and horrendous example of divine Parenthood.  

               Your actions: ok, so you can't recite scriptures because you've never been exposed to a Bible in your life.  But there is still some goodness in your life-- a moment of kindness, a gesture of love, speaking the truth.  And this goodness you know.    Now, just like before: do you live to the best Good you know how?

[Vort]

Yes, I think Heavenly Father and Jesus are both perfect and amazing beings with or without us.  They do not need us for anything... We need Them.

 

Well...God's work and glory is to bring about our immortality and eternal life. So that casts things in a bit of a different light.

[yoyoteacher]

D&C 84:110

Also the body hath need of every member, that all may be edified together, that the system may be kept perfect.

 

 

D&C 128:18

I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other—and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

 

I've always seen that scripture used in reference to salvation of our ancestors and the sealing of families together, rather than a butterfly affect on others outside of that frame of mind. Sure, I can make it to the celestial kingdom, but if I haven't done everything I can to ensure the salvation of my ancestors (and believe me, I've got enough of the spirit of Elijah to go around), it's going to be a fairly bittersweet moment.

 

That's an assumption of course, but I look forward to the day when I can meet my 4th great grandfather, shake his hand, and swap conversion stories with him (and then ask him why on earth he turned around and settled in St. Louis).

[Traveler]

Well this discussion is not exactly going as I thought – with a few exceptions.  Vort seem to have the best handle on the second eternal principle.  Jesus said that the greatest of all in the Kingdom of G-d is the servant – not the one that gets the most exaltation out of their agency.  Some will argue that being a servant is an act of agency.  But I think those arguments miss the point.  Agency is about what you do as an individual – it is all about you, your choices, your efforts – in essence it is about you and what you can do.

 

I think the idea of divine service is not even about an individual dong service and what the individual does or brings to the table.  Service is about focusing on others.  Strange as some by wonder – service is not just about doing something for others.  Sometimes service is letting and appreciating what others do for you – but the point is that the focus is not on you as an individual but on others.  This is where I see an act of service becoming the united act of many as a cog in a greater eternal cosmos machine.

[Finrock]

Yes, I think Heavenly Father and Jesus are both perfect and amazing beings with or without us.  They do not need us for anything... We need Them.

 

Hi changed!

 

You are right, we do need Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. However, as Vort pointed out already in his post, God's work and glory is bringing about the immortality and eternal life of man. 

 

Jesus Christ showed us the way. He showed us that we cannot be saved alone. We must become saviors in order to be saved. Jesus Christ showed us how to be the Savior. We can't be the Savior but through our service to others and because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, our actions become effective and have the same result as if we were the Savior.

 

God cannot be God alone. We cannot be gods alone. The Eternal Order or Economy is one of building and lifting others to enjoy all the good that you have.

 

-Finrock

Edited July 16, 2015 by Finrock

[The Folk Prophet]

Some will argue that being a servant is an act of agency. 

 

Well who wouldn't argue this?

[Traveler]

Traveler, on 15 Jul 2015 - 9:55 PM, said:

Some will argue that being a servant is an act of agency. 

 

Well who wouldn't argue this?

 

What I tried to bring to a understanding is that Jesus may not argue or use this aproach - not that is is not easily argued to be right - but perhaps something the Scribes and Pharisees would very likely use and seek such justification as an effort to set themselves and their efforts appart or to themselves be exalted - so they do not have to focus or deal with the lessor or unworthy in their minds.  Thus the choice of service is not so the exercizer of agency can obtain the Celestial kingdom - but an effort to actual be of service to someone else - regardless if they are lessor or even greater than the server.   Thus the purpose is not so much an act of individualism and for such individual benefit but a sacrifice of such for someone that perhaps is not so worthy?

Edited July 16, 2015 by Traveler

[Blackmarch]

I struggle with two personal principals that seem to be in conflict to me.

 

The first principal is that of agency that we determine our ultimate destiny.   What we do is our business and we have the right to chose as we see fit according to our understanding.  That we are unique and independent and the results of our destiny will be of our own making - good or bad - but it is uniquely ours.

 

The other principle is what I call the Avatar principle - taken from the movie "Avatar".  This principle is that all things are connected and that what we do ripples through directly to others be it for good or evil.   That we are in essence a cog in an eternal cosmic machine and eventually our fate is not just our doing but is a product of all that takes place around us as well.

 

As I have discussed this with others (mostly LDS) they seem to think there is something of both.  That I can sort of understand - perhaps - but which one dominates?  and when does one takes presidence over the other and why?

 

I am tending towards the second principle - I wonder if many overplay, overuse and over think the doctrine of agency.

we can choose which way to spin, and sometimes where we can put our cog.

As we gain sight and unerstanding we can see we will be able to see more and more of the machine allowing us to put our cog in more and more effective locations (or more destructive locations).

[The Folk Prophet]

Traveler, on 15 Jul 2015 - 9:55 PM, said:

 

 

What I tried to bring to a understanding is that Jesus may not argue or use this aproach - not that is is not easily argued to be right - but perhaps something the Scribes and Pharisees would very likely use and seek such justification as an effort to set themselves and their efforts appart or to themselves be exalted - so they do not have to focus or deal with the lessor or unworthy in their minds.  Thus the choice of service is not so the exercizer of agency can obtain the Celestial kingdom - but an effort to actual be of service to someone else - regardless if they are lessor or even greater than the server.   Thus the purpose is not so much an act of individualism and for such individual benefit but a sacrifice of such for someone that perhaps is not so worthy?

 

A. Jesus may not argue that we should use our agency to choose to follow Him by feeding His sheep as He commanded us to do?  O............kaaay.......

 

B. If I follow you correctly, you're saying that if we serve for the wrong reason it doesn't count the same as serving for the right reason. Agreed. What I can't understand is why you're using this idea to try and stigmatize agency.

 

C. Trying to shove the Scribes and Pharisees argument into this as evidence of an over reliance on agency is a pretty big non-sequitur (We'll call it, argumentum ad Phariseeum).

Edited July 16, 2015 by The Folk Prophet

[theSQUIDSTER]

I don't think these two principles are at odds with each other... nor are they meant to be.  They're complimentary.

 

Perhaps we need to be more specific when we speak of agency.  What if we called it "righteous use of agency?"  Finrock asked a very insightful question:  Could Jesus Christ be exalted and ascend to the Father without us?

 

 

My question:  What would be the point of him being exalted without anyone else following?

 

 

Some might answer:  What if nobody chose to follow him?  Then only he would be exalted and it would just be The Father and The Son..  but none of us.

 

 

My question:  Why would the Father design a plan with that kind of potential for catastrophic failure?  Is that even possible?

 

 

Here's my point:     ------------------ >  HE WOULDN"T!!!   HE DIDN"T!!!!

 

 

The gospel plan is a beautiful plan because it DOES work.  As many as possible WILL be exalted.  Is this not evident in the scriptures?  

 

Consider the parable of the wedding in Matthew 22:

 

1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 ¶And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen

 

 

It seems clear to me that both righteous agency and faithful service are crucial to the plan of salvation.  Any thing else will not exalt us.  Any other way will not exalt.  We're not trying to become like Jesus so we can be part of some ultra-exclusive club in the stars.  We're trying to be like him because that's the kind of use of agency that exalts.... it lifts others around us... that's the very essence of it... it's inclusive... but NOT coercive...  Servants are required to invite and help gather as many as are willing to "attend the wedding" or be exalted... and by being righteous and faithful servants they become heirs to exaltation as well.   This has always been the Father's will... to bring along as many of us as possible.  Wouldn't a loving father want that?

Edited July 16, 2015 by theSQUIDSTER

[Vort]

(We'll call it, argumentum ad Phariseeum).

 

Argumentum ad Pharisaeum, to be grammatically correct.

[Traveler]

Here is a thought.  Agency is a gift from G-d -- it is not something innate within us.  If we misuse agency it will be taken from us and we will be taken in bondage to Satan.   On the other hand if we sacrifice our agency in service to G-d; we in essence give up our will (agency) as Christ did submitting to the will of the Father.